Pegs sold

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 27 Feb 2018, 8:19 pm

Chances of it being painted in those Russian markings? Less than zero. It'll be a cod-Battle Of Britain pastiche scheme and an airframe which was one of the finest warbirds on the circuit rendered pointless.
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Seahornet on Tue 27 Feb 2018, 9:07 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote: Chances ...? Less than zero....


Maths not your strong point, then...? :wink:
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Ryan. on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 11:55 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Chances of it being painted in those Russian markings? Less than zero. It'll be a cod-Battle Of Britain pastiche scheme


It was confirmed in Flypast the aircraft will remain in it's bomber configuration.
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Wissam24 on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 3:17 pm

What I'd do to see it in that Russian configuration with a DShK or such hanging out the back. :love: :love:
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Stagger2 on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 3:34 pm

Whilst you can't entirely trust everything you read, even if in Aviation magazines, the news that 'Pegs' is to remain intact would be splendid news if true?
Even if you have enormous wealth & buy even a lowered-graded listed building, you cannot do exactly anything you want to it without specific approval of the minutest detail on the inside or outside of the structure. Surely it's about time there was some kind of Register for the protection historically important/ unique aircraft? I'm sure there must be examples of bastardised collectors' cars around, but I don't recall seeing a Mercedes W125 'Silver Arrow' painted green, or with a second seat shoe-horned in! It would indeed be distressing that car-custodians are more responsible than their aviation counterparts? :facepalm:

'Correct' Solution is:-
a) Leave the unique 'Pegs' as restored, don't undo good work for an unproven business profile, but maybe apply a version-correct personally chosen distinct colour scheme. = No Loss!
b) Rebuild from bits & pieces a 2-seat example without trashing a unique airworthy example, thereby avoiding the 'unpicking' process & cost. Optional to return to flight or static restoration. = Nett Gain!
c) The issue of 'having a trainer version' is horse poo! How many do the BBMF have of those? I'm prepared to bet that if you can fly a Chipmunk, then do a couple of hours circuit work in a one of several twin-stick Spitfires, you can handle the torque on take-off & land easily on the wider-track undercarriage of the Hurricane. :wink: = Result!!
C'mon Hawker Restorations, wake-up & smell the coffee! :mad:
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 4:28 pm

I thought in this country we were above the butchery of warbirds. We should leave that sort of thing to Americans who like to see which one of them can become part of the Nevada desert fastest in some bastardised Mustang or Sea Fury.

When you buy a warbird you become the guardian and custodian of a piece of history - in the case of BE505 a unique one. She should remain as she is and not some faffed-about-with Sedan chair for rich passengers.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Pegs sold

Postby starbuck on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 4:37 pm

Stagger2 wrote:Surely it's about time there was some kind of Register for the protection historically important/ unique aircraft?


Something like this you mean?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Historic_Ships

Does seem a bit strange that there isn't one for aircraft.
starbuck

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 4:45 pm

Why should it go on an historic register. It spent all its life in Canada and never saw operational use.?

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Re: Pegs sold

Postby NAM Updater on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 4:48 pm

For clarity there already is a National Aviation Heritage Register http://www.bapc.org.uk/html/registers.html
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 5:05 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Why should it go on an historic register. It spent all its life in Canada and never saw operational use.?

Brian


Yeah, we wouldn't want that Mona Lisa on a register either. It's only hung on the wall of the Louvre.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 5:35 pm

Evening Dan

We're not talking about the Mona Lisa, always thread drifts with you. :biggrin:

To be historic it would need to have some history behind it. Who flew it, what Squadron did it fly with, had it shot anything down, bombed anything, what theater of operations did it take part in etc.?

Well actually it flew with 125 Sqdn, Eastern Air Command, Sydney, Nova Scotia in 1942 which is where it spent most its RCAF life, crashed, repaired and crashed again and struck off charge in 1944. Apart from crashing not very historic. :whistle:

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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 5:38 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Evening Dan

We're not talking about the Mona Lisa, always thread drifts with you. :biggrin:

To be historic it would need to have some history behind it. Who flew it, what Squadron did it fly with, had it shot anything down, bombed anything, what theater of operations did it take part in etc.?

Well actually it flew with 125 Sqdn, Eastern Air Command, Sydney, Nova Scotia in 1942 which is where it spent most its RCAF life, crashed, repaired and crashed again and struck off charge in 1944. Apart from crashing not very historic. :whistle:

Brian


Presumably you've never pointed your Fisher Price camera at something so common and pointless as the only remaining airworthy Hurribomber then?

I fail to see what isn't historic about a Hurricane.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 6:06 pm

Being Canadian-built, wouldn't that mean that it's not a Mk IIb ( weren't the Canadian CCF-built ones designated Mk X, XI, XII ? )
From what I can gather doing a quick google, CCF/R20023 was built as a Mk XII ( original T/No. 5403 )
Was it ever operated as a fighter-bomber in Canadian service, or was it only converted to represent one once it was in civilian ownership?
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 6:15 pm

Actually 'BE505' is not a Mk.IIB, which flew with a RR Merlin III and DH propeller. In 1943 it was converted to Mk.XIIA standard with a Packard Merlin 29 engine, which it is still flying with today, so no I've not pointed my Fischer Price camera, still better than a Canon :hide: , at the only remaining airworthy Hurribomber.

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Re: Pegs sold

Postby The Baron on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 8:09 pm

Calm down chaps.
You both have reasonable points so:

Is it historically important? Probably not. It spent most of its life pottering around the wild empty skies of Canada. The likes of R4118 or PZ865 are much more important.

Is it historic? Yes. It's a Hurricane.

Is it unique? Absolutely. Few enough Hurricanes remain airworthy, most in Battle of Britain colours. As a Hurribomber it is definitely unique.

Should it be converted? Without doubt, no! Two seat Spitfires look awful. The two seat Buchon looks awful. This will probably look awful.
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby UKTopgun on Wed 28 Feb 2018, 10:19 pm

Pen Pusher wrote:Actually 'BE505' is not a Mk.IIB, which flew with a RR Merlin III and DH propeller. In 1943 it was converted to Mk.XIIA standard with a Packard Merlin 29 engine, which it is still flying with today, so no I've not pointed my Fischer Price camera, still better than a Canon :hide: , at the only remaining airworthy Hurribomber.

Brian


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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Stagger2 on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 3:55 pm

Gone Phisching!! (a little Luftwaffe F4 speak?)
A quality representation of a in-service Hurribomber beats the notion of a 2-seat conversion of the so-called 'BE505' any day. That's just wanton vandalism! Hands off! :wall:
Build your 2-seat from junk & new bits that haven't been anywhere recently, if ever? Paint it any colour you want, for those that can afford to fly in a mongrel ! :butt:
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 4:07 pm

Stagger2.....
Come on, stop all this fence-sitting & tell us what you really think....
:lol:
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Elliott Marsh on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 5:57 pm

Lots of questions in this thread - hopefully a few answers in this interview with Hawker Restorations Ltd director Andrew Wenman, including rationale, timescale, scheme and the nature of modifications.

http://vintageaviationecho.com/two-seat-hurricane/

(Link posted with mod permission).
Elliott Marsh

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Talldan76 on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 7:19 pm

Guys, please keep the comments clean and on subject.
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 7:35 pm

Elliott Marsh wrote:Lots of questions in this thread - hopefully a few answers in this interview with Hawker Restorations Ltd director Andrew Wenman, including rationale, timescale, scheme and the nature of modifications.

http://vintageaviationecho.com/two-seat-hurricane/

(Link posted with mod permission).


An interesting read, but it does sound like a hell of a lot of work, and work which when done will take an awful lot of time and money to undo.

Ruining a unique and much-loved warbird to pander to a handful of rich joyriders is pretty rank behaviour, in my view.

As others have said, if you want a bastardised mongrel, build one from scratch. That's far more palatable than wrecking one of the finest restorations we've seen in the past 20 years in this country.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Stagger2 on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 2:28 am

So, 'Hawker Demolitions Ltd' are going to develop unknown modifications without a method statement to install a second seat in a perfectly sound airframe in the pursuance of income from passenger rides at the earliest opportunity possible?
They're projecting a 12 month long modification to rip BE505 apart & design/ build & verify the conversion fit for flight before it earns a penny! Andrew Wenman states in the linked article above (http://vintageaviationecho.com/two-seat-hurricane/) that to build a 2-seat version from the ground-up would take 2.5 years + another 6 months for the actual 2-seat adaption. Whilst acknowledging at the same time that "it would certainly be easier from a practical perspective to start from scratch & build a 2-seat", but 'the adaption of BE505 will be quicker to revenue earning status.'
Given that there is intent to fit dual-controls & it'll take '6 months' more for the 2 seat adaption within a ground-up build, that a 12 month programme to flight for a 2-stick BE505 sounds unlikely? It seems to me that they will have their gravy-train in place maybe only 12months ahead of an unmolested version? :mad:
It's still a poor decision based on their perceived requirement to provide income just 12 months ahead of a scratch-built 2-seater? :facepalm: :whistle:
Stagger2

Re: Pegs sold

Postby Gonzo230 on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 7:41 am

The contrary view, of course, is that the revenue-earning potential of a two seater is the business case for restoration in the first place.

Would we have as many Second World War fighters in the UK now if there was no possibility of passenger rides?

The other aspect to bear in mind, perhaps not for this airframe; but it certainly applies to some of the more recent two seat Spitfire conversions, is that the owner of the aircraft is not licenced to fly it, but wants to fly in it.
Gonzo230

Re: Pegs sold

Postby jalfrezi on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 9:28 am

I just found it a little odd that they bought BE505, they've then contracted themselves to convert it, and have already put it back up for sale? :dunno: It's almost like they're testing the waters for two seat conversions, and showcasing what they can do.

I just wish they'd gone for the ground up approach, rather than butchering a perfectly good airframe. :sad:
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Re: Pegs sold

Postby st24 on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 11:50 am

Remember the good old days when your Doug Arnolds, your Ted Whites, your Steve Greys, your Tony Bianchis, your Ray Hannas etc obtained, refurbished and flew warbirds to honour history ; the men machines and moments that forged what the world became... I shouldn't because its only a lump of metal and fabric (it's not-it's the finest British fighter :wink:) but I find this £making story very sad.
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