New CAP403 changes consultation

New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby boff180 on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 12:44 pm

Hi guys,

The CAA are consulting on changes to CAP403 here (click me)

I've given it a very brief read but proposed changes that stand out to me are....

  • Car Parks and Spectators areas or anywhere the public has access to must not be below the display area.
  • Within the Display Area pilots cannot a) perform aerobatics over any building, vessel or vehicle which the pilot/commander has reason to believe is occupied by individuals at that moment or b) be below 500ft above sea level above said objects meeting this criteria in non-aerobatic flight within the Display box. - Having to remain above 500ft over the M11???
  • Overflight of secondary spectators is to be avoided.
  • Free tickets should not be offered to those in secondary spectator areas (considered to be encouragement and may attract more via social media).
  • Display practices on the day of a flying display can only take place prior to spectators arriving at the display location - This one could affect Shuttleworth

Andy
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 1:25 pm

How about Fairford village and its environs? Bet there's more than 1 house occupied during display practice!

So also how does that work for standing on the road at the end of the runways?

Or displaying over queues of incoming cars?

My comments are about Fairford, but could i suppose mean any airshow where peeps are in houses during displays!
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby boff180 on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 1:46 pm

Fairford is military and therefore primarily governed by the MAA and RA2335, not the CAA and CAP403
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 1:58 pm

boff180 wrote:Fairford is military and therefore primarily governed by the MAA and RA2335, not the CAA and CAP403


Yup,
Should have thought that through properly.

cheers
Dave
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 5:06 pm

That second bullet point has me shaking my head here. Its going to be so difficult to slalom in and out, up and down, whilst trying to perform a display routine that deviates from a pilot's rehearsed one that surely.. I mean surely.. its increasing the risk of an accident occurring.

I can't think of many over-land civilian venues that can comply.

Bonkers.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 5:15 pm

I can't think of many over-land civilian venues that can comply.


Which, if you'e a cynic, could be the reasoning behind it.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby The Baron on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 6:23 pm

I guess that we (the paying public) will just have to wait and see how much this affects displays.
No doubt some venues will argue against and the CAA will back peddle a bit.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby Berf on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 7:05 pm

boff180 wrote:Fairford is military and therefore primarily governed by the MAA and RA2335, not the CAA and CAP403



However the aim is to make both as common as practicable
Berf

Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby Danny on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 8:10 pm

boff180 wrote:Within the Display Area pilots cannot a) perform aerobatics over any building, vessel or vehicle which the pilot/commander has reason to believe is occupied by individuals at that moment


"Now, was it today or tomorrow that Mr and Mrs Jones of 27 Northcote Crescent return from their holiday to Gran Canaria?"

Just what a pilot wants on their mind whilst trying to fly aerobatics.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby duxfordhawk on Sat 06 Jan 2018, 9:28 pm

Danny wrote:
boff180 wrote:Within the Display Area pilots cannot a) perform aerobatics over any building, vessel or vehicle which the pilot/commander has reason to believe is occupied by individuals at that moment


"Now, was it today or tomorrow that Mr and Mrs Jones of 27 Northcote Crescent return from their holiday to Gran Canaria?"

Just what a pilot wants on their mind whilst trying to fly aerobatics.



Maybe people can hang a flag outside like the Queen to say whether they are in or not, or maybe a pair of bright red bloomers saying "Knickers to the CAA" would be more appropriate. It does feel like the proposed changes are going to make it impossible for most shows to carry on.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby boff180 on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 7:30 am

Wrexham Mackem wrote:That second bullet point has me shaking my head here. Its going to be so difficult to slalom in and out, up and down, whilst trying to perform a display routine that deviates from a pilot's rehearsed one that surely.. I mean surely.. its increasing the risk of an accident occurring.

I can't think of many over-land civilian venues that can comply.

Bonkers.


It is a very subtle changing of the wording, firstly making it the pilot/team leaders decision whether it is occupied, secondly bringing in ‘reason to believe’ that it is occupied.

Current text:
Separation Distances and third parties
6.14 Display Pilots are not permitted to perform Aerobatic Manoeuvres above any structures occupied by non-Essential Personnel or known third party Spectator crowds within the Display Area. Additionally, any non-aerobatic overflight of the above is not permitted below 500 feet AGL.
6.15 Owners/occupiers of buildings located beneath a Display Area may be contacted and, if any building can be guaranteed to be unoccupied for the duration of the Flying Display, no restriction would be necessary provided full details of the hazard, risks and mitigations, including copies of the written confirmation from the owners/occupiers, are included in the Flying Display Risk Assessment.


Proposed text:
Separation distances and third parties
6.15 Within the Display Area, Display Pilots are not permitted to:
a) Perform in aerobatic flight over any building, vessel or vehicle which the commander has reason to believe is occupied by persons
b) Perform below 500 feet Above Surface Level (ASL) in non-aerobatic flight, over any building, vessel or vehicle which the commander has reason to believe is occupied by persons
6.16 Owners/occupiers of buildings located beneath a Display Area may be contacted and, if any building can be guaranteed to be unoccupied for the duration of the Flying Display, no restriction would be necessary provided full details of the hazard, risks and mitigations, including copies of the written confirmation from the owners/occupiers, are included in the Flying Display Risk Assessment.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby flyholt on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 3:37 pm

boff180 wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:That second bullet point has me shaking my head here. Its going to be so difficult to slalom in and out, up and down, whilst trying to perform a display routine that deviates from a pilot's rehearsed one that surely.. I mean surely.. its increasing the risk of an accident occurring.

I can't think of many over-land civilian venues that can comply.

Bonkers.


It is a very subtle changing of the wording, firstly making it the pilot/team leaders decision whether it is occupied, secondly bringing in ‘reason to believe’ that it is occupied.

Current text:
Separation Distances and third parties
6.14 Display Pilots are not permitted to perform Aerobatic Manoeuvres above any structures occupied by non-Essential Personnel or known third party Spectator crowds within the Display Area. Additionally, any non-aerobatic overflight of the above is not permitted below 500 feet AGL.
6.15 Owners/occupiers of buildings located beneath a Display Area may be contacted and, if any building can be guaranteed to be unoccupied for the duration of the Flying Display, no restriction would be necessary provided full details of the hazard, risks and mitigations, including copies of the written confirmation from the owners/occupiers, are included in the Flying Display Risk Assessment.


Proposed text:
Separation distances and third parties
6.15 Within the Display Area, Display Pilots are not permitted to:
a) Perform in aerobatic flight over any building, vessel or vehicle which the commander has reason to believe is occupied by persons
b) Perform below 500 feet Above Surface Level (ASL) in non-aerobatic flight, over any building, vessel or vehicle which the commander has reason to believe is occupied by persons
6.16 Owners/occupiers of buildings located beneath a Display Area may be contacted and, if any building can be guaranteed to be unoccupied for the duration of the Flying Display, no restriction would be necessary provided full details of the hazard, risks and mitigations, including copies of the written confirmation from the owners/occupiers, are included in the Flying Display Risk Assessment.


I'm not overly concerned at this proposed text. In my briefings to pilots during the 2017 show season, I always included all known buildings beneath the display area, their use and up to the minute status as to occupation. Vessels - sorry I've not been involved in shows over water. Vehicles - I've always closed roads that cross the display area. so that no vehicle can be there, moving or not. I certainly don't expect or want my pilots to "slalom in / out /up / down" during their routine and much contact is done with them in the run up to a show to ensure that their practised routine can accommodate them being above 500ft in normal flying practice until they are within the display area and return to such before exit. This has meant enlarging the display area and looking a lot more closely at the location for a show. I'm lucky, Wrexham Mackem, insofar as the shows I'm involved in have large airfield boundary coverage or are in very rural areas. Now... secondary crowd areas - boy what a nightmare. Don't get me started.....!
CLEAREDTODISPLAY
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby effects on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 7:33 pm

As the MAA tend to go with the CAP or safer, I just cannot see how the Northside campsites at Fairford can continue.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby farnboroughrob on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 7:49 pm

Some of this was around last year, the no overflying car parks and no overflying populated areas. One show i know had a issue with a industrial area that could not be over flown unless it could be proved to be 100% clear, which was not possible. In theory one house under a display area could scupper the whole display, good job the MAA have more sensible rules presumably, for now.
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Re: New CAP403 changes consultation

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Mon 08 Jan 2018, 10:52 am

flyholt wrote:I'm not overly concerned at this proposed text. In my briefings to pilots during the 2017 show season, I always included all known buildings beneath the display area, their use and up to the minute status as to occupation. Vessels - sorry I've not been involved in shows over water. Vehicles - I've always closed roads that cross the display area. so that no vehicle can be there, moving or not. I certainly don't expect or want my pilots to "slalom in / out /up / down" during their routine and much contact is done with them in the run up to a show to ensure that their practised routine can accommodate them being above 500ft in normal flying practice until they are within the display area and return to such before exit. This has meant enlarging the display area and looking a lot more closely at the location for a show. I'm lucky, Wrexham Mackem, insofar as the shows I'm involved in have large airfield boundary coverage or are in very rural areas. Now... secondary crowd areas - boy what a nightmare. Don't get me started.....!


I appreciate the insight Flyholt. I am of course just a bystander. It would seem to me the safest way to fly a display is to concentrate a practised and repeatable routine with as little distraction from that as possible. That said, 'avoids' are nothing new I know.

I still have my fingers crossed for a compromise in risk management and common sense that still makes it worthwhile organising an airshow. For the sake of the industry.
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