RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby 138EAW on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 9:45 pm

The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) is to scrap 16 UK Eurofighter Typhoons as part of a project to save GBP 800 million (USD1.13 billion) on the running cost of the service's combat aircraft fleet.

The plans to dismantle the aircraft and harvest spare parts for use on the remainder of the Typhoon fleet were revealed to Jane’s on 29th January by RAF Air Command at High Wycombe, in Buckinghamshire, in response to a Freedom of Information (FOI) Act request.

The project, known as Reduce to Produce (RTP), aims to generate GBP50 million worth of parts from each airframe “back into the supply chain”, according to the FOI data.



http://www.janes.com/article/77413/raf- ... t-typhoons
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Tommy on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 9:57 pm

Jesus, we're only talking about Tornados RTPing, now Typhoons, too? :ghost:
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby tommc on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 10:05 pm

138EAW wrote:
The UK Royal Air Force (RAF) is to scrap 16 UK Eurofighter Typhoons as part of a project to save GBP 800 million (USD1.13 billion) on the running cost of the service's combat aircraft fleet.

The plans to dismantle the aircraft and harvest spare parts for use on the remainder of the Typhoon fleet were revealed to Jane’s on 29th January by RAF Air Command at High Wycombe, in Buckinghamshire, in response to a Freedom of Information (FOI) Act request.

The project, known as Reduce to Produce (RTP), aims to generate GBP50 million worth of parts from each airframe “back into the supply chain”, according to the FOI data.



http://www.janes.com/article/77413/raf- ... t-typhoons


Wow, Janes are really on the ball! The first one went to RTP last summer. This is hardly news.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Harvo266 on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 10:23 pm

Not a great deal of use required when the multi-million £ simulator does everything needed in the safety of a building. For the cost of 1 90/120 minute flight in a Typhoon training flight, you're talking a fair few quid.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby AngryAndyPandy on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 10:42 pm

As said above this is nothing new or out of the blue, and it makes a lot of sense to generate spares packages in this way. At least in this specific set of circumstances.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby vulcan558 on Mon 29 Jan 2018, 11:31 pm

Lets hope the spares cost and supply is good for our small F35 fleet,
With a small fleet and say 2 go tech, and with poor spares supply.

You can see the F35 fleet will be RTP in a very short time.

Wasn't these Typhoons tranche 1 models and share little with tranche 3,
Hence the reason the tranche 1s could not be upgraded to tranche3,?.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Craig on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 7:09 am

vulcan558 wrote:Lets hope the spares cost and supply is good for our small F35 fleet,
With a small fleet and say 2 go tech, and with poor spares supply.

You can see the F35 fleet will be RTP in a very short time.

Wasn't these Typhoons tranche 1 models and share little with tranche 3,
Hence the reason the tranche 1s could not be upgraded to tranche3,?.

I believe the lack of upgrade is down to computer compatibility rather than airframe. The new software etc can't be added but the airframe components will still be of use.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Berf on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 7:36 am

vulcan558 wrote:Lets hope the spares cost and supply is good for our small F35 fleet,
With a small fleet and say 2 go tech, and with poor spares supply.

You can see the F35 fleet will be RTP in a very short time.

Wasn't these Typhoons tranche 1 models and share little with tranche 3,
Hence the reason the tranche 1s could not be upgraded to tranche3,?.


Well as you mention it - the US government watch dog has criticised the availability of spares and the cost.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby vulcan558 on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 8:56 am

Would it be more cost effective to fly theses 2 seaters with 2 pilots shareing the hours.
If say a 2 hr practice sortie around the uk and a few runs on the ranges, both pilots getting the experiance from 1 flight 1 aircraft not 2.aircraft.
The 2 seater can be flown from both seats so both can have cheap stick time.
Save the hrs on the single seaters for when needed on the real job.
Use the twin sticks for peace time and flying hrs. 16 twin sticks can get you 32 pilot stick time instead of needing front line fighters running up fatigue life. Will help keep the single sticks going longer at very little cost.
Use another paid for assetl in the long run be cheaper . I think to pilots in one jet would help in knoledge and experiance shareing also.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby boff180 on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 9:25 am

Craig wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Lets hope the spares cost and supply is good for our small F35 fleet,
With a small fleet and say 2 go tech, and with poor spares supply.

You can see the F35 fleet will be RTP in a very short time.

Wasn't these Typhoons tranche 1 models and share little with tranche 3,
Hence the reason the tranche 1s could not be upgraded to tranche3,?.

I believe the lack of upgrade is down to computer compatibility rather than airframe. The new software etc can't be added but the airframe components will still be of use.


It's also structural. The Tranche 1 computer equipment bays are a different size/shape to those in the Tranche 2/3 which are similar/same with built in expansion space. It's therefore physically impossible to upgrade them to the common upgradeable mission computers found in the Trance 2/3.

The 2/3 can both be upgraded to the E-SCAN radar without major changes (I believe the tranche 3 is already wired for it), the big structural difference between Tranche 2 and 3 is that the 3 is pre-wired and plumbed for carrying conformal fuel tanks (the lugs on the rear fuselage) although I understand the RAF have no interest in using the capability.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 10:48 am

Harvo266 wrote:Not a great deal of use required when the multi-million £ simulator does everything needed in the safety of a building. For the cost of 1 90/120 minute flight in a Typhoon training flight, you're talking a fair few quid.


Indeed. I remember a talk in the mid to late 90s from a BAe (back then) test-pilot. His only half tongue-in-cheek answer to the question of why they needed a 2-seater was that the needed something to fly the VIP passengers in. This may have had an element of truth - we've always had 2-seat trainers, so we'll keep having 2-seater trainers. The RAF has always done it that way, and more money to BAe.

As the F-35 programme is showing, they really now are a thing of the past with the fidelity of synthetic training available. :smile:
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby harkins on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 10:55 am

Bad news for all the BBC presenters that haven't yet had their joy ride in one.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby vulcan558 on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 10:56 am

GertrudetheMerciless wrote:
Harvo266 wrote:Not a great deal of use required when the multi-million £ simulator does everything needed in the safety of a building. For the cost of 1 90/120 minute flight in a Typhoon training flight, you're talking a fair few quid.


Indeed. I remember a talk in the mid to late 90s from a BAe (back then) test-pilot. His only half tongue-in-cheek answer to the question of why they needed a 2-seater was that the needed something to fly the VIP passengers in. This may have had an element of truth - we've always had 2-seat trainers, so we'll keep having 2-seater trainers. The RAF has always done it that way, and more money to BAe.

As the F-35 programme is showing, they really now are a thing of the past with the fidelity of synthetic training available. :smile:


I agree with the F35. With them saying most of the flying traininv and practice missions can anx will be done on the SIM.
This the reason they can come out with low operating costs sales pitch.
As they will have very few hours put on them with the Sim doing it.

If we do fly them as we do our present force maybe the cost and spares figures will make it a very exspensive aircraft.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Binbrook 01 on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 11:25 am

Harkins

You realise of course that the RAF still has 6 Tranche 2 twin seat Typhoons (except one is now used as a trials airframe at Warton)
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby harkins on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 11:32 am

Thanks Binbrook, I didn't realise that. To be honest I just assumed they were getting rid of the lot as apart from joy rides there doesn't seem to be much reason to have any of them.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Pat Murphy on Tue 30 Jan 2018, 12:47 pm

Still seems a waste to me. Why not take a "young" airframe like these, give them a modest overhaul and use them purely as an Air defence Sqn.

Maybe a conversion to SEAD as in the stillborn EF-3 Tornado? The RAF seems to like special Niche operations aircraft these days, Sentinel, Shadow, Airseeker to name but 3, still can't see the point in the last project. :roll:
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby st24 on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 12:22 am

16 good airframes would make a great display team plus spares... Just sayin'... :smile:
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby toom317 on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 11:55 am

vulcan558 wrote:Would it be more cost effective to fly theses 2 seaters with 2 pilots shareing the hours.
If say a 2 hr practice sortie around the uk and a few runs on the ranges, both pilots getting the experiance from 1 flight 1 aircraft not 2.aircraft.
The 2 seater can be flown from both seats so both can have cheap stick time.
Save the hrs on the single seaters for when needed on the real job.
Use the twin sticks for peace time and flying hrs. 16 twin sticks can get you 32 pilot stick time instead of needing front line fighters running up fatigue life. Will help keep the single sticks going longer at very little cost.
Use another paid for assetl in the long run be cheaper . I think to pilots in one jet would help in knoledge and experiance shareing also.


Vulcan, that would seem like a good idea on the face of it, only snag I can see, is that the pilot likes to be up front, so I don't know how this would affect the value of training the 2nd pilot in the back seat would get.

There is also the problem of the helmet mounted sight/sensors, as they may not be compatible with the Tranche 1 wiring.

Another point raised in the thread also seems like a good idea, is give them to the Reds. They've always used two seaters anyway, this would give them a modern fighter type to show off, especially on world tours when promoting British Industry, with a more current platform than the now out of date Hawk.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Craig on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 12:46 pm

toom317 wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Would it be more cost effective to fly theses 2 seaters with 2 pilots shareing the hours.
If say a 2 hr practice sortie around the uk and a few runs on the ranges, both pilots getting the experiance from 1 flight 1 aircraft not 2.aircraft.
The 2 seater can be flown from both seats so both can have cheap stick time.
Save the hrs on the single seaters for when needed on the real job.
Use the twin sticks for peace time and flying hrs. 16 twin sticks can get you 32 pilot stick time instead of needing front line fighters running up fatigue life. Will help keep the single sticks going longer at very little cost.
Use another paid for assetl in the long run be cheaper . I think to pilots in one jet would help in knoledge and experiance shareing also.


Vulcan, that would seem like a good idea on the face of it, only snag I can see, is that the pilot likes to be up front, so I don't know how this would affect the value of training the 2nd pilot in the back seat would get.

There is also the problem of the helmet mounted sight/sensors, as they may not be compatible with the Tranche 1 wiring.

Another point raised in the thread also seems like a good idea, is give them to the Reds. They've always used two seaters anyway, this would give them a modern fighter type to show off, especially on world tours when promoting British Industry, with a more current platform than the now out of date Hawk.

Except by comparison Typhoon is astronomical to operate. The fuel bill for 9 of these on full reheat would be eye watering. The Hawk by comparison is cheap to operate.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby toom317 on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 8:57 pm

Yeh, but how much longer is the Hawk going to be around? I doubt we'll see the RAF splashing out on an extra 12 or 13 Hawk T2's just for the Reds.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Berf on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 9:25 pm

Thought the Red Arrows Hawks OSD was 2030 plenty of time to save up for half a dozen Grobs.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 9:40 pm

Pat Murphy wrote:Maybe a conversion to SEAD as in the stillborn EF-3 Tornado? The RAF seems to like special Niche operations aircraft these days, Sentinel, Shadow, Airseeker to name but 3, still can't see the point in the last project. :roll:


The point of Airseeker, other than continuing a capability the RAF has excelled at for the best part of half a century or more? :smile:

As for any ideas of a conversion - there's no money (as we all know). One can't help but think the EF-3 project was nowt more than a fleet trying to justify an extended existence by giving a capability needed for a war we'd fought a few years before.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Craig on Wed 31 Jan 2018, 9:42 pm

Yep there's loads of spares, there'll be enough to sustain 9 aircraft for some years to come, especially as I believe 100 sqn's duties are to be at least partly undertaken by the newly forming 12 sqn? Not sure the impact this will have on 100 sqn though.
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Steve p on Thu 01 Feb 2018, 10:28 pm

So when did typhoon production end?, must have been quite a while ago if we have to strip down airframes to keep others going!. Heavens above what next i wonder no maritime partol capabilty or carrier strike force :sad:
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Re: RAF to scrap 16 twin-seat Typhoons

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Fri 02 Feb 2018, 12:20 am

Steve p wrote:So when did typhoon production end?, must have been quite a while ago if we have to strip down airframes to keep others going!.


It hasnt finished yet, still on going. As for stripping airframes a certain few were bought purely as a source of parts ZJ940 being a prime example. 940 was delivered to Coningsby and to date has never flown again, I suspect the same will happen with the F-35
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