Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Pringles on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:02 pm

Good news!
Following publication of the final Shoreham accident report and the enhancements to airshow safety introduced since 2015, precautionary restrictions on straight wing ex-military jet aircraft will be lifted. This will enable these aircraft to conduct full aerobatic displays at all UK airshows rather than the restricted displays they have performed for the past two years

http://www.air-shows.org.uk/2018/02/air ... -airshows/
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:07 pm

Straight wing only though :roll:
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby rdchawk on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:09 pm

Would this allow Brietling Jet Team to come back to RIAT?
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby BossMann on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:10 pm

So the Brietling jet team WILL be able to display at RIAT this year!

Good news for the Vampire pair & strikemaster displays too
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby capercaillie on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:20 pm

And anyone flying a Jet Provost at Southport. :hypno:
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 3:05 pm

Or an L-29 at Eastbourne


Edited to add -
Silly question, maybe....
CAP 403, unless I'm mistaken, still has a maximum speed for display aircraft of 600Kts, and any aircraft wishing to display at speeds of over 250Kts having to apply for an exemption to do so.
If this is correct, wouldn't the simple solution be to lower the current maximum to something like 400-450Kts, or is the issue with swept-wing aircraft more to do with handling characteristics than display speeds?
( Again unless I'm mistaken, wasn't XH558 limited to something like 300Kts during displays? )
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Tommy on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:30 pm

Good news, of course, but I'm not sure if I'm overly hyped about this.

Some of the best classic jet flying (what precious little there has been) has been post-Shoreham in my opinion. Nice, graceful manoeuvres, without the rivet-popping G-straining moves that can be left to the likes of modern machines with oodles more performance, IMO. Maybe I just need to have my memory jogged.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby CJS on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:44 pm

Pre Shoreham too - the Meteor display at RIAT in whatever year that was (2012?) showed off a beautiful aircraft in a beautiful way, without the need for throwing it around the sky too much.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby yakdave on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 5:11 pm

Would this allow Brietling Jet Team to come back to RIAT, Think the answer is a poss No , Brietling are withdrawing aviation sponsorship I believe
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Spotty_Jag on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 6:26 pm

BossMann wrote:So the Brietling jet team WILL be able to display at RIAT this year!


Will they? :question: Only if each pilot has a valid UK CAA Display Authorisation... which I don't believe they do.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby DamienB on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 8:19 pm

Norwegian DAs are fine, Swiss DAs are fine with some caveats. Swedish DAs are still an issue.

I welcome the return of loops and rolls to jet displays!

And the issue with swept wing is indeed different handling characteristics, particularly stall / spin.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby starbuck on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 8:38 pm

Just because they are cleared to display doesn't mean they necessarily will. Air show organisers and pilots may decide the reward isn't worth the potential risk in negative post- Shoreham press headlines and social media outrage.

With the inquests not even underway nor any potential criminal proceedings it may well be seen as too soon by some.

How much extra pull to your event does an upside down Strikemaster give you anyway?
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 8:53 pm

yakdave wrote:Would this allow Brietling Jet Team to come back to RIAT, Think the answer is a poss No , Brietling are withdrawing aviation sponsorship I believe


Not withdrawn entirely - the Breitling Jet Team will continue.

This is a welcome concession. The last couple of years have provided several opportunities to compare the aero/non-aero versions of classic jet displays back to back (Strikey, Vampires) and the aerobatic version is a hundred times an improvement. In my opinion of course.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Flare Path on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 9:08 pm

CJS wrote:Pre Shoreham too - the Meteor display at RIAT in whatever year that was (2012?) showed off a beautiful aircraft in a beautiful way, without the need for throwing it around the sky too much.


The 2013 display is one of the best things I've witnessed at an Air Tattoo - magnificent elegance from start to finish.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby CJS on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 9:15 pm

Exactly Flare Path - I really do have to agree with Tommy again here - not just the Meteor either: another example was the JP pair which opened the September show at Duxford in 2014. A perfectly well executed display by an aircraft I very much admire, but for the aerobatic parts of the display they were two dots in the sky. The straight passes however showed off the aircraft perfectly.

IMHO leave the fancy stuff to the aircraft and teams more suited to it - dedicated display teams and fast jets.

Let the true classic aircraft just speak for themselves. Take the (obviously not jet powered) Spitfire. Who needs that to be all aero-fancypants-batic to know just what a beautiful machine it is?

Appreciate these wonderful old beasts for what they are, not what rivet popping twists and turns can be wrung out of them.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby UKTopgun on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 10:51 pm

I always feel the same about the Bearcat at Duxford, why can't they vary the displays it gives? Why do they always have to boom and zoom the thing every time, sometimes lower and slower might give a different perspective. Sometimes it is fine but not all the time.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby The Baron on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 11:01 pm

I'm firmly in the camp of aerobatics are best left to the modern stuff, bit in the interests of providing a display to please everyone a bit of both, for those aircraft easily capable of limited aerobatics, shouldn't be too hard to put together. Peter Teichman normally does a pretty good job.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby FarnboroJohn on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 7:29 am

UKTopgun wrote:I always feel the same about the Bearcat at Duxford, why can't they vary the displays it gives? Why do they always have to boom and zoom the thing every time, sometimes lower and slower might give a different perspective. Sometimes it is fine but not all the time.


Must admit I always enjoy the boom and zoom, but reflecting on this and trying to find a positive, it occurred to me that I'd quite like to see a dirty pass with wheels, flaps and hook down once in a while. It works for Hornets.... so fair enough.

One of the things (as an oldie) that used to annoy me about BBMF in the 60s and 70s was that they drove their Hurricanes and Spitfires like buses, and to my mind it's the civvie owners that have driven warbird displays to the point where you get some idea of what one or two are capable of: its not all about photos, sometimes the throttle has to be well open. And with e.g. three baby Spits upside down in Vee formation at the top of a loop you could be at Hendon in the late 1930s.... true flying legends. What's not to like?

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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:46 am

I couldn't agree more John, very well put.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Tommy on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:57 am

FarnboroJohn wrote:
UKTopgun wrote:I always feel the same about the Bearcat at Duxford, why can't they vary the displays it gives? Why do they always have to boom and zoom the thing every time, sometimes lower and slower might give a different perspective. Sometimes it is fine but not all the time.


Must admit I always enjoy the boom and zoom, but reflecting on this and trying to find a positive, it occurred to me that I'd quite like to see a dirty pass with wheels, flaps and hook down once in a while. It works for Hornets.... so fair enough.

One of the things (as an oldie) that used to annoy me about BBMF in the 60s and 70s was that they drove their Hurricanes and Spitfires like buses, and to my mind it's the civvie owners that have driven warbird displays to the point where you get some idea of what one or two are capable of: its not all about photos, sometimes the throttle has to be well open. And with e.g. three baby Spits upside down in Vee formation at the top of a loop you could be at Hendon in the late 1930s.... true flying legends. What's not to like?

John


It's a fair point often made, but why not both? The Bearcat's display at OW's Fly Navy show last year was very boom, much zoom, but also was graceful and had some lovely topsides for those with cameras. Warbird loveliness, that was, I enjoyed both aspects equally.

However, we're talking about classic jets here, not warbirds. The likes of the Bearcat, or the Sea Fury/Fury were pretty much the pinnacle of piston-engined design in terms of power to weight ratios. Early "classic" jets on the cusp of a brand new technology were very different.

How much boom, and how much zoom can, say, a JP, or a Gnat, or a Meteor, really have? That's, personally, why I celebrate this news, but I don't really get excited by it. It's celebrated because its another indictment that airshow flying is considered safe by the relevant authorities, which of course it is, and that's welcomed. For me though, I think classic jets are better-suited to more graceful displays, rather than the higher-G manoeuvres which take an age for them to complete, and are done so far away that they appear as dots to the eye, which can be better-left to the much more able modern counterparts.
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Wissam24 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 2:10 pm

Now here's a question, would a Starfighter count as straight wing?
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby CJS on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:13 pm

It barely counts as wing
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Wissam24 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:53 pm

:lol: :lol: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby Cole on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 6:53 pm

CJS wrote:It barely counts as wing

thanks for the giggle CJS :lol: :lol:
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Re: Straight Wing Classic Jets cleared for Aeros

Postby vulcan558 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:40 pm

Canberra time.
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