Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Quote: Mr Johnson also questioned the drab colour of the Voyager, saying: "Also, why does it have to be grey?"
He has a point. Why grey? I'm sure some will say it's camouflage for its air refuelling role but this doesn't make sense. If an enemy aircraft has vectored towards an air refuelling asset it must first have avoided the fighters and must also know of its location, probably by radar which means beyond visual range. If within visual range how difficult is is to see a Voyager vs a BA A330? I would argue both are equally easy to see so there's no advantage to having a grey scheme.
So is it about economies of scale? Buy the paint in bulk. If it is, the saving must be so small that it doesn't make sense and I simply don't think this is the case if all the paint comes from the same supplier.
So what's the reason for grey? Is it the RAF corporate colour? To what end?
While we're on the subject, given the number of aggressor aircraft with exotic schemes, is one scheme better or worse than another in a visual fight? Does a camouflage scheme make a difference? I remember in the early 90's flying in the dessert in the USA and a camo Phantom dropped from altitude to low level. I lost visual contact with him for a few seconds as the aircraft merged with the ground but what about a typical above the clouds fighter engagement?
He has a point. Why grey? I'm sure some will say it's camouflage for its air refuelling role but this doesn't make sense. If an enemy aircraft has vectored towards an air refuelling asset it must first have avoided the fighters and must also know of its location, probably by radar which means beyond visual range. If within visual range how difficult is is to see a Voyager vs a BA A330? I would argue both are equally easy to see so there's no advantage to having a grey scheme.
So is it about economies of scale? Buy the paint in bulk. If it is, the saving must be so small that it doesn't make sense and I simply don't think this is the case if all the paint comes from the same supplier.
So what's the reason for grey? Is it the RAF corporate colour? To what end?
While we're on the subject, given the number of aggressor aircraft with exotic schemes, is one scheme better or worse than another in a visual fight? Does a camouflage scheme make a difference? I remember in the early 90's flying in the dessert in the USA and a camo Phantom dropped from altitude to low level. I lost visual contact with him for a few seconds as the aircraft merged with the ground but what about a typical above the clouds fighter engagement?
Last edited by verreli on Wed 23 May 2018, 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
BA don't have any A330s.
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Please feel free to insert one of the airlines that do. How about VIM Airlines?
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
verreli wrote:Please feel free to insert one of the airlines that do. How about VIM Airlines?
They ceased operations last year, how about Lufthansa?
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
I think "grey" was decided as the best overall camouflage, but god knows what the RAF policy of it is. Do our tankers really need to be "camouflaged"? Which leads me to assume that it must be that bulk-buying is more cost effective to purchase/apply/replace than machines wearing multi-tone colours.
I think I read that Hawks and the like (training aircraft) are painted black these days because that was decided by scientists to be the "most visible" colour in the sky to other pilots during daylight hours (I would've gone day-glo pink, myself, but hey oh).
A thing I don't get is low-viz roundels. Especially on the F-35s. The sole purpose a roundel is there is to allow that machine, or more correctly - to whom the machine belongs, to be identified. Remove/desaturate all colour and make them tiny, and they're coming perilously close to being utterly pointless. Most pointless roundel on an active aircraft these days must go to Japan. It's just a very thin white ring.
I think I read that Hawks and the like (training aircraft) are painted black these days because that was decided by scientists to be the "most visible" colour in the sky to other pilots during daylight hours (I would've gone day-glo pink, myself, but hey oh).
A thing I don't get is low-viz roundels. Especially on the F-35s. The sole purpose a roundel is there is to allow that machine, or more correctly - to whom the machine belongs, to be identified. Remove/desaturate all colour and make them tiny, and they're coming perilously close to being utterly pointless. Most pointless roundel on an active aircraft these days must go to Japan. It's just a very thin white ring.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Because the crabs are unimaginative ( as evidenced by the RAF100 logo ) so grey suits them.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Tommy wrote:A thing I don't get is low-viz roundels. Especially on the F-35s. The sole purpose a roundel is there is to allow that machine, or more correctly - to whom the machine belongs, to be identified. Remove/desaturate all colour and make them tiny, and they're coming perilously close to being utterly pointless. Most pointless roundel on an active aircraft these days must go to Japan. It's just a very thin white ring.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
So why is no one picking on the USAF for their Grey tankers?.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Pen Pusher wrote:So why is no one picking on the USAF for their Grey tankers?.
Brian
Because KC-135s and KC-10s have character?
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Tommy wrote:...
I'm not convinced. Can you honestly tell the difference between a grey and 'special marked' airframe at 10 miles out at an airshow or even in the low-fly system? For me, the profile is about all I can make out which begs the question, why don't they paint camo schemes to appear to be other aircraft or at least confuse the profile? A bit like the Canadians paint a false cockpit canopy.
I'm with you on the day glow pink. Red provides the most colour contrast to blue so if you want a hi-vis aircraft, that's the colour to have. I think this is borne out by comparing a Red Arrow with a T2 at and airshow or in the lowfly system.
Agree totally on the roundels. It's hard enough to identify on a static photo, never mind in a dynamic environment.
Last edited by verreli on Wed 23 May 2018, 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Pen Pusher wrote:So why is no one picking on the USAF for their Grey tankers?.
Brian
Because the people who make the news with their opinions get to fly on specially designed and built nice blue/white/turquoise/gold/silver jets.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
LN Strike Eagle wrote:Pen Pusher wrote:So why is no one picking on the USAF for their Grey tankers?.
Brian
Because KC-135s and KC-10s have character?
And because they're not Brit-Mil.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Tommy wrote:Pen Pusher wrote:So why is no one picking on the USAF for their Grey tankers?.
Brian
Because the people who make the news with their opinions get to fly on specially designed and built nice blue/white/turquoise/gold/silver jets.
Exactly. Boris isn’t saying why are RAF tankers grey, he is saying why is the RAF tanker that we fly our politicians to State Visits and Summits in, grey. When other countries have nice shiny jets just for their heads of state to fly around in.
The answer is pragmatically that as a monarchy we don’t view our politicians as anything better than higher paid civil servants. Our real head of state and the royals get all the flashy stuff, our politicians, including the Prime Minister are viewed as “nothing special” - really.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Yep..really flash, that.
Almost as flash as training aircraft used to be.
Has BoJo actually had the cojones to again say that he thinks the PM ( and by extension, him ) should have their own dedicated VVIP aircraft?
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
ericbee123 wrote:The answer is pragmatically that as a monarchy we don’t view our politicians as anything better than higher paid civil servants. Our real head of state and the royals get all the flashy stuff, our politicians, including the Prime Minister are viewed as “nothing special” - really.
But then the Queen is also flown around in this grey jet - not in a flashy colourful one.
I can see where Boris is coming from, in that the story does mention that the plane is rarely available due to it being used heavily for other purposes.
I can't see any reason why Britain shouldn't have 2-3 Biz Jet's assigned for Government use, and a larger scale plane available for Royal / PM use when required. (Painted in a decent scheme of course)
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
I thought the royals (maybe not the Queen) flew commercial the majority of the time these days? Depends on the occasion, location and amount of staff required to go along with them I suppose.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Never mind the aircraft I'd rather we had a lo-viz Boris Johnson.
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Spiny Norman wrote:Never mind the aircraft I'd rather we had a lo-viz Boris Johnson.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
The article in full :
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/boris-johnson-foreign-office-own-plane-voyager
Forget about the colour, the more telling part is :
Which merely illustrates that despite claims of his intelligence he's actually a clueless throbber.
Oh, and he's an utter clown.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/boris-johnson-foreign-office-own-plane-voyager
Forget about the colour, the more telling part is :
“What I will say about the Voyager, I think it’s great, but it seems to be very difficult to get hold of. It never seems to be available. I don’t know who uses it, but it never seems to be available.
Which merely illustrates that despite claims of his intelligence he's actually a clueless throbber.
Oh, and he's an utter clown.
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Brevet Cable wrote:Forget about the colour, the more telling part is:“What I will say about the Voyager, I think it’s great, but it seems to be very difficult to get hold of. It never seems to be available. I don’t know who uses it, but it never seems to be available.
I suppose it depends how up to speed Boris is with the comings and goings of AirTanker's fleet, I suppose he'll be pleased to know that there's at least one Voyager which isn't painted grey.
Here's ZZ341 arriving at RAF Ringway this morning...
I think G-VYGM/ZZ342 is also at Manchester, having just come off lease to TUI Airlines Belgium.
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
Hammy wrote:Here's ZZ341 arriving at RAF Ringway this morning...
Good post. I had no idea that within 2 years of taking delivery of our tanker fleet, you could be taking an RAF jet to [insert holiday destination]. It's no wonder none are available. Why oh why???
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
If its grey its a target. Why Boris is scared.
Nato seem to be grey color code. Civvie jets bright and colorful. Helps stop shooting down of civvie
Airlines or private jets etc.
Thats the main reason. Not camo as grey is not really a camo color. Plain and simple is to split mill away from civvie.
Nato seem to be grey color code. Civvie jets bright and colorful. Helps stop shooting down of civvie
Airlines or private jets etc.
Thats the main reason. Not camo as grey is not really a camo color. Plain and simple is to split mill away from civvie.
Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
vulcan558 wrote:If its grey its a target. Why Boris is scared.
Nato seem to be grey color code. Civvie jets bright and colorful. Helps stop shooting down of civvie
Airlines or private jets etc.
Thats the main reason. Not camo as grey is not really a camo color. Plain and simple is to split mill away from civvie.
I don't think this is correct. Do you have a source?
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Re: Boris Johnson questions grey colour for Voyager
vulcan558 wrote:If its grey its a target. Why Boris is scared.
Nato seem to be grey color code. Civvie jets bright and colorful. Helps stop shooting down of civvie
Airlines or private jets etc.
Thats the main reason. Not camo as grey is not really a camo color. Plain and simple is to split mill away from civvie.
Why waste time say lot word when few word do trick?
That's really not the case; grey is used because it minimises an aircraft's visual signature. If grey aircraft were so much more likely to be shot down then airlines wouldn't incorporate grey into their liveries (Qatar, Lufthansa, Brussels Airlines, United Airlines' old colours and so on).
Boris' issue is presumably to do with the aircraft being in a military colour scheme which is not befitting of an aircraft used by a head of state (or foreign secretary) - with the exception of the Czech stuff and the Netherlands' new Boeing 737-700BBJ I'm hard pushed to think of any VVIP/presidential aircraft which features a lot of grey in its livery.