When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby CJS on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 6:22 pm

FarnboroJohn wrote:My feeling is that this is entirely subjective, and I wouldn't make a distinction between flying and non-flying, or in/out of service, but my two penn'orth (non-comprehensive lists):

Classic: Me-262, Meteor, Vampire, Sabre, MiG 15, 21 and 25; Canberra, Gnat, EE Lightning, F4 Phantom II, Harrier, B-52, Vulcan, Starfighter, Mirage III, F-14 Tomcat

Not Classic: JP (sorry Chris), MiG 23, Jaguar, A6 Intruder, CF-100, Alpha Jet, Javelin, Su 22 and 25, Etendard, Valiant.

Mostly arguable either way in both lists. Great material for interminable pub discussions!


So why would a Jaguar not be, but a Phantom would (for example)? Just based on your opinion or do you use any criteria?

It's turned out to be more interesting than I expected!!
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CJS

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby ErrolC on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 2:37 am

CJS wrote:...

Probably a very small grey area as I can't actually think of any other examples of this, where one country has an example flying privately, whilst others still use them operationally, but just thought it was interesting. In fact, wasn't the US Phantom flying privately at the same time as there still being US examples in active service?

...


There are A-4 Skyhawks flying in private US hands (plus the Draken ones), and it is still in service for e.g. Malaysia.
And a whole bunch of L-39s.
ErrolC

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Steve p on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 6:18 am

Not sure why an example has to be still flying or all withdrawn from service to be called a classic. Classic is not a description of age or current status but a general discripton either personally or from a wider audience of a particular thing, something remembered or thought of in high regard or for other reasons.
Steve p

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby FarnboroJohn on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 9:11 am

CJS wrote:
FarnboroJohn wrote:My feeling is that this is entirely subjective, and I wouldn't make a distinction between flying and non-flying, or in/out of service, but my two penn'orth (non-comprehensive lists):

Classic: Me-262, Meteor, Vampire, Sabre, MiG 15, 21 and 25; Canberra, Gnat, EE Lightning, F4 Phantom II, Harrier, B-52, Vulcan, Starfighter, Mirage III, F-14 Tomcat

Not Classic: JP (sorry Chris), MiG 23, Jaguar, A6 Intruder, CF-100, Alpha Jet, Javelin, Su 22 and 25, Etendard, Valiant.

Mostly arguable either way in both lists. Great material for interminable pub discussions!


So why would a Jaguar not be, but a Phantom would (for example)? Just based on your opinion or do you use any criteria?

It's turned out to be more interesting than I expected!!


For me the Jag will always be that somewhat underpowered, not very manoeuvrable, short-legged bomb truck, with the Phantom being a multi-role aircraft with proven success in all its roles. That said, by the time it was chopped the Jaguar had upgraded systems that made it a highly effective short-range bomb-truck: as I said it's subjective but the Jag doesn't seem to make it even though I have happy memories and some old small-image photos of them over Llyn Ogwen, well below me on Tryfan's lower slopes.
FarnboroJohn

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Spiny Norman on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 5:50 pm

Looking at criteria for what defines a classic car, there is nothing definite, although I like this description used in an article in the Daily Telegraph: "a post-WWII, pre-1980 model of technical or nostalgic merit”.

For aircraft this might mean the Buccaneer would be included but say the Jaguar might not.
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Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Cole on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 6:36 pm

Any Jet that is retired from military use..
Oh wait isn't the MiG 21 still in service in some countries :grin: :grin:
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Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby vulcan558 on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 9:19 pm

Would say vintage is a good description,
Too old to be considered modern, but not old enough to be considered antique.
vulcan558

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Steve p on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 10:02 pm

FarnboroJohn wrote:
CJS wrote:
FarnboroJohn wrote:My feeling is that this is entirely subjective, and I wouldn't make a distinction between flying and non-flying, or in/out of service, but my two penn'orth (non-comprehensive lists):

Classic: Me-262, Meteor, Vampire, Sabre, MiG 15, 21 and 25; Canberra, Gnat, EE Lightning, F4 Phantom II, Harrier, B-52, Vulcan, Starfighter, Mirage III, F-14 Tomcat

Not Classic: JP (sorry Chris), MiG 23, Jaguar, A6 Intruder, CF-100, Alpha Jet, Javelin, Su 22 and 25, Etendard, Valiant.

Mostly arguable either way in both lists. Great material for interminable pub discussions!


So why would a Jaguar not be, but a Phantom would (for example)? Just based on your opinion or do you use any criteria?

It's turned out to be more interesting than I expected!!


For me the Jag will always be that somewhat underpowered, not very manoeuvrable, short-legged bomb truck, with the Phantom being a multi-role aircraft with proven success in all its roles. That said, by the time it was chopped the Jaguar had upgraded systems that made it a highly effective short-range bomb-truck: as I said it's subjective but the Jag doesn't seem to make it even though I have happy memories and some old small-image photos of them over Llyn Ogwen, well below me on Tryfan's lower slopes.


Not sure about that jags was designed from the outset for the short/medium range attack role during the cold war, it served both the French and us very well for over 30 years and the Indian air force still use them 45 years after there into service date. Jaguars have also been used successfully in a number of conflicts so if that don't qualify for CLASSIC status i am not sure what does.
Steve p

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby AARDVARK on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 5:14 pm

A jet become classic...when it can no longer fly :cool:
AARDVARK

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby borismorris on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 6:33 pm

AARDVARK wrote:A jet become classic...when it can no longer fly :cool:


So British Harriers and Jaguars are though other countries flying examples are not?
borismorris

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Tmyers123 on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 8:12 pm

AARDVARK wrote:A jet become classic...when it can no longer fly :cool:


I see what you mean, but that would mean the entirety of the SwAFHF are not classic, or the Norwegian Vampires, MiG-15 or F-104.
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Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby AARDVARK on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 6:26 am

I was kinda being sarcastic (lowest form of Witt I know),it just seems like most of the classic aircraft,or at least the ones that spring to mind for myself Lightning,Vulcan,Aardvark lol, are no longer flying,it was also a sad reflection of the current classic jet scene in the U.K. where not to many years back you could see Hunters,Canberra,Sea Vixen,Vulcan,Meteors and alike all regular airshow “civilian”acts,now sadly since post Shoreham consigned to the history books!
But it’s not all doom and gloom ,we have F104 now back on the European scene ,plus Vamps,Gnats,all the Swedish stuff and of course the Harrier/Phantom/Tomcat still going strong with other air-arms,but I divulge.
AARDVARK

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Alanko on Sat 07 Jul 2018, 9:07 pm

I don't think all jets become classics. Look at the US Century Series. The F-104 Starfighter is a classic! Right? What about the F-101 Voodoo? Errr..... nowhere near as loved.

AARDVARK wrote:...now sadly since post Shoreham consigned to the history books!


No, that is too simplistic a view on things. Classic jet operations on the airshow scene had been winding down slowly in the UK prior to Shoreham. We had already lost the RNHF Sea Hawk, any Canberra representation, and (from memory) any Meteors as well. You're simply dealing with byzantine, idiosyncratic 1950s technology, that didn't exactly have a blemish-free record in military service, kept 'alive' well beyond any sort of intended shelf life. This is a very expensive business, with a fair chunk of problem solving thrown in. The loss of the RNHF Sea Vixen is another nail in the coffin. The repair bill will be massive, and all the time that it isn't in the air and in front of the public it is slowly being forgotten.
Alanko

Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Skylinerworld on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 7:05 pm

Is there no plan to bring the Hawker Sea Hawk back to flying condition again or is it not known?
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Re: When does a jet become 'Classic'?

Postby Jakub.Zurek on Wed 18 Jul 2018, 7:20 pm

Skylinerworld wrote:Is there no plan to bring the Hawker Sea Hawk back to flying condition again or is it not known?


This is what the Navy Wings website says:

RNHF efforts are currently, with limited resources, focused on the Swordfish and then the return to flight of the Sea Fury FB11. Once these goals are achieved the Sea Hawk will be reviewed to establish the work and financial commitment required to return her to flight.


With their focus on also repairing the Sea Vixen (albeit one small piece at a time) I'd say it's very unlikely to see it at all in the foreseeable future :sad:
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