Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby techniquest on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 1:31 pm

I'm asking this as a genuine question so please don't shout at me: in a situation like Saturday at Old Sarum (and Goodwood) where the Vulcan is unable to display, do the organisers still have to pay the full appearance fee, or is there a no-show refund strategy?
techniquest

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby lynothehammer on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:09 pm

Tomahawk wrote:
Getting involved in a public slanging match on an internet forum, that ticks the unprofessional box.

Yes you are arrogant and that rambling discourse of yours above confirms it. Old Sarum Castle was OPEN to the public. If that risk to the Vulcan was as you put it why didn't the airshow and English Heritage get together and close the site, why were English Heritage actively parking cars in the lower field (under any curving approach to 06). The site was open, the Vulcan was coming, it was guaranteed there would be hundreds of people on that hill unless active measures were taken to prevent it and yet the gates were unlocked.

Yes there were many people on that hill who chose not to attend/pay and were there to watch the display only but there were also families enjoying a day out at a well known local attraction, walking the dog, playing games etc. with an airshow in the background and yet every one of them is still, to you, a freeloader. This wasn't the fields at Duxford, where your argument might have held some value, it was Salisbury and it was a public park and tourist attraction. As I said, arrogant.

Oh and as for the name thing, my name is Paul Mather, I shall be at the Duxford BoB Show on the 19th. Feel free to PM me if you are also in attendance and we can discuss this further in person should you wish to do so.


LOL, it's clearly touched a raw nerve with you. You call Melvyn unprofessional, to be fair you look a bit of a silly boy in all of this with your pathetic comment regarding the chap being taken ill and then not liking a response to your post from the guy your critiscising.

If it was a lacklusture show with poor organisation why did you even bother going to the Castle ?
Last edited by lynothehammer on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lynothehammer

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby lynothehammer on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:10 pm

techniquest wrote:I'm asking this as a genuine question so please don't shout at me: in a situation like Saturday at Old Sarum (and Goodwood) where the Vulcan is unable to display, do the organisers still have to pay the full appearance fee, or is there a no-show refund strategy?


I'd also be interested as well, something i was wondering yesterday.
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lynothehammer

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby captchaos on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:52 pm

stingrays4 wrote: The WW1 display was very entertaining,and the pyro's very noisy :shock:

You want to try flying over them! :) Glad you liked it.
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captchaos

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby flyholt on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 3:00 pm

"Getting involved in a public slanging match on an internet forum, that ticks the unprofessional box.

[i]Yes you are arrogant and that rambling discourse of yours above confirms it. Old Sarum Castle was OPEN to the public. If that risk to the Vulcan was as you put it why didn't the airshow and English Heritage get together and close the site, why were English Heritage actively parking cars in the lower field (under any curving approach to 06). The site was open, the Vulcan was coming, it was guaranteed there would be hundreds of people on that hill unless active measures were taken to prevent it and yet the gates were unlocked.

Yes there were many people on that hill who chose not to attend/pay and were there to watch the display only but there were also families enjoying a day out at a well known local attraction, walking the dog, playing games etc. with an airshow in the background and yet every one of them is still, to you, a freeloader. This wasn't the fields at Duxford, where your argument might have held some value, it was Salisbury and it was a public park and tourist attraction. As I said, arrogant.

Oh and as for the name thing, my name is Paul Mather, I shall be at the Duxford BoB Show on the 19th. Feel free to PM me if you are also in attendance and we can discuss this further in person should you wish to do so."


Well, Mr Mather, I was a member of the Flying Control Committee for this show. I have to say that Melvyn is perhaps the most professional, knowledgeable and jovial commentators I listen to. You are indeed showing your a**e here.
I cannot believe that ANYONE would want to put themselves in a position of danger by being under the approach / climb out of a display line after Shoreham. Only a couple of weeks ago, I tried to give some words of wisdom to a group who had gathered about 600 metres from the threshold of runway 26 at Bournemouth, actually IN the runway safety area, to watch the arrival of 3 Typhoons and Battle Flight. Their reply? "This land is owned by the New Forest National Park and we are allowed to be here". It doesn't matter on whose land you are stood / sat (but shame on English Heritage for not realising the danger - what would they have done if an aircraft had come to grief on the hill? "You are here at your own risk!*!" - well I would have recommended shutting the attraction for the weekend but there was no durisdiction). The same mentality goes for those who gather under short final at RIAT - yeah it's a public road - so get your head taken off on a public road then! So ridiculously stupid. It's about INFORMED CHOICE and having the sense to know what's dangerous and what's safe. Air show enthusiasts should have more information than most to make those choices.

Off soap box - go!
CLEAREDTODISPLAY
flyholt

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby seacat192 on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 4:22 pm

Well explained
Last edited by seacat192 on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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seacat192

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby techniquest on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 5:03 pm

This argument over people being at Old Sarum ramparts and/or under the runway threshold is moot in any case when making comparisons to the Shoreham incident. If you're going to suggest that English Heritage should have closed Old Sarum over the weekend as a safety measure, then you would equally have to ensure that people living in the housing at the other end of the airfield should move away for the weekend (or at the very least not venture into their gardens). By your reckoning, I suppose the owners of Totterdown, Rhymes Farm and even Furzey Hill who open their land during RIAT, the owners of the WAVE at Waddington, and anyone in a boat at a seaside show are equally as irresponsible as you suggest English Heritage have been.
By the way, I spoke to several people on Old Sarum (the ancient monument, not the airfield) on Saturday morning who were there to walk their dogs or visit the ruins as they would normally do, saw lots more people than usual but had no idea that there was an airshow happening that day.
techniquest

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby planenuttoo on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 5:19 pm

Organizers of airshows see sites like the historic site of Old Sarum as revenue losses, therefore those that are on that "side of the fence" i.e. involved in the finances will always refer to dangers etc., sadly Shoreham will also be referred to.

There is just as much chance of someone on that hill being injured as there is for anybody waiting for a bus in the park and ride. The display line is to the south of the hill fort. Just suggest that beneath a landing/take off line is not good, for risk nor photography.

We are all from very different walks of life and therefore have many other things to consider in attending, timing, location and other commitments amongst them. For the enthusiast it's the content; for the family it's the distraction/attractions that are important.

Each to their own, as none of us can know what each other has or needs in this life. Good luck to the airshow organizers, I am sure if there is to be another show, they can use this one as a template with knowledge of the needs and successes.

Vulcan non-appearance fees are, to the best of my knowledge kept on hold until agreed with the payee as to the possible use for them, i.e. next appearance, donation or refund.
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planenuttoo

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Gareth V on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 5:35 pm

Here's my thoughts from the Saturday.

Firstly the commentary - I loved it. It was light hearted, upbeat and fun. I didn't find anything that was said offensive or in bad taste. To those who have I would say lighten up, Melvyn is great and the Australian chap whose name I forget - I want to say Pete but I could be wrong was superb too.

I'd just be repeating others with regard to catering, ticket checks, and information on website. So I won't comment further on this.

The static parking crowd side didn't affect my view but I agree it needs to be better thought out. I think organisers probably thought that doing it that way would allow people to get up close to the planes etc. Maybe the area at the far end of the field where a couple of general aviation planes were parked up could be used in future years as I know small shows rely on acts from the flying display bulking out any static they have.

Better collaboration with the museum could had worked well. The museum halls are just hangers so wheeling the aircraft out could have been a good call as that would have made it easier for people to see the aircraft. As they have quite a few complete airframes this could have worked really well to create a static display. Now I appreciate that the museum is separate from the airfield, however if a small fee from each ticket went to the museum it would be mutually beneficial to the airshow and museum, it would also be better for us punters too!

As for the show itself - the two Spitfires which opened were outstanding - this act alone justified the ticket cost for me. Other highlights for me were Lauren, the Tutor and the P-51, though everything was great. Like others have said it would have been nice to have a few more acts on the bill but this then costs more etc.

I honestly feel it was a great day and the show has a lot of promise and I hope it can continue to grow and develop in the years to come. Roll on 2016.
Twitter @WordsFromGareth Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/justgareth/albums (i'm no pro, just enjoy taking pics)
Gareth V

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Tomahawk on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 8:24 pm

lynothehammer wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:
Getting involved in a public slanging match on an internet forum, that ticks the unprofessional box.

Yes you are arrogant and that rambling discourse of yours above confirms it. Old Sarum Castle was OPEN to the public. If that risk to the Vulcan was as you put it why didn't the airshow and English Heritage get together and close the site, why were English Heritage actively parking cars in the lower field (under any curving approach to 06). The site was open, the Vulcan was coming, it was guaranteed there would be hundreds of people on that hill unless active measures were taken to prevent it and yet the gates were unlocked.

Yes there were many people on that hill who chose not to attend/pay and were there to watch the display only but there were also families enjoying a day out at a well known local attraction, walking the dog, playing games etc. with an airshow in the background and yet every one of them is still, to you, a freeloader. This wasn't the fields at Duxford, where your argument might have held some value, it was Salisbury and it was a public park and tourist attraction. As I said, arrogant.

Oh and as for the name thing, my name is Paul Mather, I shall be at the Duxford BoB Show on the 19th. Feel free to PM me if you are also in attendance and we can discuss this further in person should you wish to do so.


LOL, it's clearly touched a raw nerve with you. You call Melvyn unprofessional, to be fair you look a bit of a silly boy in all of this with your pathetic comment regarding the chap being taken ill and then not liking a response to your post from the guy your critiscising.

If it was a lacklusture show with poor organisation why did you even bother going to the Castle ?


Eh? At no point in any of my posts did I call the actual show lacklustre, I pointed out that it was poorly 'sold' as a product, something that Melvyn accepted. Information was lacking and difficult to find. Having attended airshows at Old Sarum in the past I also suspected that ground attractions might be few. Therefore I chose not to buy a ticket. I also wasnt the only one on here that felt that way. I chose to go to the theatre in Southampton instead. On the way there I stopped for an hour and half, until 3pm, to watch some flying. Of course having chosen not to buy a ticket I should have averted my eyes and not looked up.... :whistle:

As for 'not liking a response', of course I didn't. I disagreed with it and I made further points on the subject, its what happens on internet forums....... :whistle:
Tomahawk

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Tomahawk on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 8:39 pm

flyholt wrote:"Getting involved in a public slanging match on an internet forum, that ticks the unprofessional box.

[i]Yes you are arrogant and that rambling discourse of yours above confirms it. Old Sarum Castle was OPEN to the public. If that risk to the Vulcan was as you put it why didn't the airshow and English Heritage get together and close the site, why were English Heritage actively parking cars in the lower field (under any curving approach to 06). The site was open, the Vulcan was coming, it was guaranteed there would be hundreds of people on that hill unless active measures were taken to prevent it and yet the gates were unlocked.

Yes there were many people on that hill who chose not to attend/pay and were there to watch the display only but there were also families enjoying a day out at a well known local attraction, walking the dog, playing games etc. with an airshow in the background and yet every one of them is still, to you, a freeloader. This wasn't the fields at Duxford, where your argument might have held some value, it was Salisbury and it was a public park and tourist attraction. As I said, arrogant.

Oh and as for the name thing, my name is Paul Mather, I shall be at the Duxford BoB Show on the 19th. Feel free to PM me if you are also in attendance and we can discuss this further in person should you wish to do so."


Well, Mr Mather, I was a member of the Flying Control Committee for this show. I have to say that Melvyn is perhaps the most professional, knowledgeable and jovial commentators I listen to. You are indeed showing your a**e here.
I cannot believe that ANYONE would want to put themselves in a position of danger by being under the approach / climb out of a display line after Shoreham. Only a couple of weeks ago, I tried to give some words of wisdom to a group who had gathered about 600 metres from the threshold of runway 26 at Bournemouth, actually IN the runway safety area, to watch the arrival of 3 Typhoons and Battle Flight. Their reply? "This land is owned by the New Forest National Park and we are allowed to be here". It doesn't matter on whose land you are stood / sat (but shame on English Heritage for not realising the danger - what would they have done if an aircraft had come to grief on the hill? "You are here at your own risk!*!" - well I would have recommended shutting the attraction for the weekend but there was no durisdiction). The same mentality goes for those who gather under short final at RIAT - yeah it's a public road - so get your head taken off on a public road then! So ridiculously stupid. It's about INFORMED CHOICE and having the sense to know what's dangerous and what's safe. Air show enthusiasts should have more information than most to make those choices.

Off soap box - go!


Seriously, did you actually just make the statement "shame on English Heritage for not realising the danger"?

In case you had forgotten, its not their event, its your event and if that danger was to the level your rather hysterical post is suggesting then who endorsed the risk assessments for the airshow? Clearly it should not have gone ahead or you should have paid English Heritage to shut down for the weekend.
Tomahawk

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Tomahawk on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 8:43 pm

techniquest wrote:This argument over people being at Old Sarum ramparts and/or under the runway threshold is moot in any case when making comparisons to the Shoreham incident. If you're going to suggest that English Heritage should have closed Old Sarum over the weekend as a safety measure, then you would equally have to ensure that people living in the housing at the other end of the airfield should move away for the weekend (or at the very least not venture into their gardens). By your reckoning, I suppose the owners of Totterdown, Rhymes Farm and even Furzey Hill who open their land during RIAT, the owners of the WAVE at Waddington, and anyone in a boat at a seaside show are equally as irresponsible as you suggest English Heritage have been.
By the way, I spoke to several people on Old Sarum (the ancient monument, not the airfield) on Saturday morning who were there to walk their dogs or visit the ruins as they would normally do, saw lots more people than usual but had no idea that there was an airshow happening that day.


:clap:

Well said and with regard to Old Sarum (the ancient monument) that reinforces the point I was making in my posts. By all means have a go at the airshow enthusiast freeloaders, including myself, but not at a bunch of ordinary people who were having their usual Saturday 'bimble' at a nice location with some aeroplanes in the background.
Tomahawk

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby phreakf4 on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 10:44 pm

Tomahawk wrote:
:

.... with regard to Old Sarum (the ancient monument) that reinforces the point I was making in my posts. By all means have a go at the airshow enthusiast freeloaders, including myself, but not at a bunch of ordinary people who were having their usual Saturday 'bimble' at a nice location with some aeroplanes in the background.


And that is precisely the point. No reasonable person objects to those people who just happen to be in the area, perhaps visiting another attraction or relatives or whatever. Nor would they object to the "locals" who in many cases "suffer" the noise and traffic chaos which ensues from an air show. What many, including myself do object to is the "professional" freeloaders who travel tens (or in some cases hundreds) of miles to an air show with no intention of paying to see the show. Excuses such as "You can't take decent photos from the crowd side" do not counter the fact that if those of us who do pay to attend the show were not there there would be no show. It is therefore undeniably true that those who are called freeloaders are exactly that. They are taking advantage of something for which others have paid.

Addendum.
Following Shoreham and given the involvement (justified or otherwise) of MPs and the media, it would not surprise me at all if such as Totterdown and Rhymes were not permitted to operate next year by means of bye-laws. The WAVE at Waddington was closed during the show days....
nothing is confirmed at a show until it's u/c hits the tarmac or it's running in for it's display.....
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phreakf4

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Goody on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 12:01 pm

I was on the hill. I drove a fair way to get there to see the Vulcan and I was as disappointed as everyone else about its no-show. So, why did I not pay (not that I have to provide an excuse) - simple reason is that I knew the tickets were in advance only. I was going to do something else on the Saturday, but a last minute issue with my original plans coupled with a good weather forecast for Saturday afternoon meant a change of plan Saturday morning. The website stated advance ticket purchase only so I thought there was no point in trying to get in. In addition, my aircraft interest is only really a passing one. I am more a railway person (diesels), and my interest in aircraft is pretty much limited to things that are fast and loud and don't have propellers, so not much at Salisbury for me other than the Vulcan.

As a result, I arrived on the hill around 3 and saw a little bit of flying before going home. Had I known I could get in on the day, I may have arrived earlier to make a day of it although, given that I had my young daughter with me and the comments about lack of things inside to keep young children entertained, it sounds like it may not have been appropriate for her. As it was, 1.5 hours was about the limit before she was ready to go home.

Everyone has their own reasons for doing what they do and, provided it doesn't hurt anyone else, I cannot see the problem. I do find the comments about Shoreham a bit strange though, as if justification is being sought for a view. I suppose we should have no aircraft flying over any areas where there are people if that is the line of thought.
Goody

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby hzone on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 11:42 pm

flyholt wrote:"

.......

Well, Mr Mather, I was a member of the Flying Control Committee for this show. I have to say that Melvyn is perhaps the most professional, knowledgeable and jovial commentators I listen to. You are indeed showing your a**e here.
I cannot believe that ANYONE would want to put themselves in a position of danger by being under the approach / climb out of a display line after Shoreham. Only a couple of weeks ago, I tried to give some words of wisdom to a group who had gathered about 600 metres from the threshold of runway 26 at Bournemouth, actually IN the runway safety area, to watch the arrival of 3 Typhoons and Battle Flight. Their reply? "This land is owned by the New Forest National Park and we are allowed to be here". It doesn't matter on whose land you are stood / sat (but shame on English Heritage for not realising the danger - what would they have done if an aircraft had come to grief on the hill? "You are here at your own risk!*!" - well I would have recommended shutting the attraction for the weekend but there was no durisdiction). The same mentality goes for those who gather under short final at RIAT - yeah it's a public road - so get your head taken off on a public road then! So ridiculously stupid. It's about INFORMED CHOICE and having the sense to know what's dangerous and what's safe. Air show enthusiasts should have more information than most to make those choices.

Off soap box - go!


Flyholt,

First can I say how much I enjoyed my day at Old Sarum (on-site, paid for) on Saturday, great flying (I particularly enjoyed team Raven, a new act to me, thought their aircraft looked very smart). So thanks very much to you and the rest of the people involved in organising the show. (this is my first post on this site, but have been a regular reader for years)

Before the show I was in a dilemma on which day to go, Saturday, see the Vulcan or Sunday and the likelihood of significantly less crowd, better chance of getting good viewing position, less hassle of queues...., I'd have probably chosen the Sunday if just the Vulcan, but the chance of seeing it and Sally-B together was to good to miss.

This leads me to the point of my post, why should English Heritage or any other operator of a public venue close their venue because a small airfield in the vicinity has decided to hold an airshow that includes aircraft (in fact probably only 1 or 2 in the programme) that are totally out of the normal character for the airfield and therefore pose a particularly high and unusual risk to members of the public, who for whatever reason choose to attend the operators venue? In reality wasn't it the case that the show organisers took on something out of their venue and organisational capability in booking the Vulcan (possibly not the only venue to have done so?). I went with realistic expectations that there would be some issues due to the number of people that this unique opportunity would cause, this surely must have been obvious to the organisers as would a build up of people at local public venues with a good view. If the organisers and/or aircraft operators risk assessment indicated that this presented an unreasonable risk that they couldn't mitigate (possibly in collaboration with the external venue) to an acceptable risk level then should they not have cancelled the activity (this particular display act)?

This to me is very different to land owners near to an airshow venue with normally empty (or nearly empty fields with the exception of the farmer) who choose to invite and charge the public onto their land simply to take advantage of the neighbouring airshow to make money, these people clearly have to burden their share of the pubic liability risk, insurance costs and risk assessment hassle. Likewise I'm sure English Heritage will have performed a risk assessment of the risks to the public involved in the physical activity of attending their site covering the person who reportedly needed medical attention on Saturday, I could also imagine that this risk assessment would have included an assessment of the risk posed by the 'normal' flying activity from the local airfield(s) and concluded that while the potential worse case impact was large the chance of it happening was sufficiently low to make the overall benefit in providing public access worth the risk to the public. What I don't think they could have been expected to do was consider the risk posed by the airfield holding an event on a scale they never have done before attracting aircraft of a type inappropriate/not typical for the airfield operations with significantly higher risk to a larger surrounding area than normal.

I like attending airshows and don't want more restrictions/limits on what or where displays can take place than is necessary to maintain a reasonable level of risk to everyone attending or in the vicinity, but we do have to be realistic (on both sides).

Best wishes to all involved in organising airshows and display acts, a difficult job of risk assessment is going to get even more difficult post Shoreham. I'm currently involved in performing simple risk assessments for workers in a standard office environment with no particular hazards and no general public access, still more difficult than would first appear, I wouldn't like to be responsible for the risk assessments associated with hosting an airshow.

Regards

Ian Hardy (HZone)
hzone

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby fastandloud on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 7:50 am

hzone wrote:
flyholt wrote:"

.......

Well, Mr Mather, I was a member of the Flying Control Committee for this show. I have to say that Melvyn is perhaps the most professional, knowledgeable and jovial commentators I listen to. You are indeed showing your a**e here.
I cannot believe that ANYONE would want to put themselves in a position of danger by being under the approach / climb out of a display line after Shoreham. Only a couple of weeks ago, I tried to give some words of wisdom to a group who had gathered about 600 metres from the threshold of runway 26 at Bournemouth, actually IN the runway safety area, to watch the arrival of 3 Typhoons and Battle Flight. Their reply? "This land is owned by the New Forest National Park and we are allowed to be here". It doesn't matter on whose land you are stood / sat (but shame on English Heritage for not realising the danger - what would they have done if an aircraft had come to grief on the hill? "You are here at your own risk!*!" - well I would have recommended shutting the attraction for the weekend but there was no durisdiction). The same mentality goes for those who gather under short final at RIAT - yeah it's a public road - so get your head taken off on a public road then! So ridiculously stupid. It's about INFORMED CHOICE and having the sense to know what's dangerous and what's safe. Air show enthusiasts should have more information than most to make those choices.

Off soap box - go!


Flyholt,

First can I say how much I enjoyed my day at Old Sarum (on-site, paid for) on Saturday, great flying (I particularly enjoyed team Raven, a new act to me, thought their aircraft looked very smart). So thanks very much to you and the rest of the people involved in organising the show. (this is my first post on this site, but have been a regular reader for years)

Before the show I was in a dilemma on which day to go, Saturday, see the Vulcan or Sunday and the likelihood of significantly less crowd, better chance of getting good viewing position, less hassle of queues...., I'd have probably chosen the Sunday if just the Vulcan, but the chance of seeing it and Sally-B together was to good to miss.

This leads me to the point of my post, why should English Heritage or any other operator of a public venue close their venue because a small airfield in the vicinity has decided to hold an airshow that includes aircraft (in fact probably only 1 or 2 in the programme) that are totally out of the normal character for the airfield and therefore pose a particularly high and unusual risk to members of the public, who for whatever reason choose to attend the operators venue? In reality wasn't it the case that the show organisers took on something out of their venue and organisational capability in booking the Vulcan (possibly not the only venue to have done so?). I went with realistic expectations that there would be some issues due to the number of people that this unique opportunity would cause, this surely must have been obvious to the organisers as would a build up of people at local public venues with a good view. If the organisers and/or aircraft operators risk assessment indicated that this presented an unreasonable risk that they couldn't mitigate (possibly in collaboration with the external venue) to an acceptable risk level then should they not have cancelled the activity (this particular display act)?

This to me is very different to land owners near to an airshow venue with normally empty (or nearly empty fields with the exception of the farmer) who choose to invite and charge the public onto their land simply to take advantage of the neighbouring airshow to make money, these people clearly have to burden their share of the pubic liability risk, insurance costs and risk assessment hassle. Likewise I'm sure English Heritage will have performed a risk assessment of the risks to the public involved in the physical activity of attending their site covering the person who reportedly needed medical attention on Saturday, I could also imagine that this risk assessment would have included an assessment of the risk posed by the 'normal' flying activity from the local airfield(s) and concluded that while the potential worse case impact was large the chance of it happening was sufficiently low to make the overall benefit in providing public access worth the risk to the public. What I don't think they could have been expected to do was consider the risk posed by the airfield holding an event on a scale they never have done before attracting aircraft of a type inappropriate/not typical for the airfield operations with significantly higher risk to a larger surrounding area than normal.

I like attending airshows and don't want more restrictions/limits on what or where displays can take place than is necessary to maintain a reasonable level of risk to everyone attending or in the vicinity, but we do have to be realistic (on both sides).

Best wishes to all involved in organising airshows and display acts, a difficult job of risk assessment is going to get even more difficult post Shoreham. I'm currently involved in performing simple risk assessments for workers in a standard office environment with no particular hazards and no general public access, still more difficult than would first appear, I wouldn't like to be responsible for the risk assessments associated with hosting an airshow.

Regards

Ian Hardy (HZone)



Well said - very balanced and sensible summing up.
fastandloud

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby planenuttoo on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 9:28 am

I would think, with the H & S hat on, that there was significantly more risk to people and children clambering up and down the Old Sarum ramparts than any who might be affected by aircraft.

References to risk on other areas outside an event are often swayed by the chances of revenue gain from those people.

Knee jerk reaction to events is most effected by those not affected by them - the sad events of Shoreham should not be referred to until the outcome of the enquiries. The Smiler incident at Alton Towers was tragic for those involved and luckily nobody died, yet the calls for it's "closure and demolition" were numerous whilst no-one calls for a road or motorway to be closed regardless of the number of fatalities regularly on some.
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planenuttoo

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Gareth V on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 11:37 am

Guys, seriously why are we letting things get so heated over what essentially is a very trivial matter? I am not saying that safety is trivial, rather the fact that the event passed without incident and is now chronologically behind us. If we lead our lives saying "what if", we wouldn't be able to live our lives without "danger". What if you cross a road... you may get run over, what if you use an electrical device... you might get electrocuted. There will always be freeloaders, there will always be people who put themselves in the line of danger - no amount of ranting on here will change this.

Personally I paid to go inside Old Sarum, yes there could have been improvements on the ground and in the air, but overall for a first year show I think the team there should be proud that they achieved what they have. So many shows get cancelled when organisers fail for whatever reason to get the project going, so I think we should be grateful for a new show and one which I hope goes from strength to strength over the years learning from previous years in order to develop and grow.
Twitter @WordsFromGareth Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/justgareth/albums (i'm no pro, just enjoy taking pics)
Gareth V

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby flyholt on Sat 19 Sep 2015, 5:46 pm

Well, my goodness, I didn't think my post would generate such a great response. I acknowledge that my comment "shame on the National Trust for......" did raise hackles.
I think that was below the belt - sorry. Nevertheless, I will be at the "wash up" for display directors, organisers etc coming up within the next few weeks. it will be a VERY interesting meeting
but if SAFETY is paramount then we will be continuing to exercise our duty is display directors in keeping, firstly safety as our main concern and, secondly, to keep the air show industry going
CLEAREDTODISPLAY
flyholt

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby AMB on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 9:50 am

Stuie173 wrote:Ferocious Frankie...WHAT A DISPLAY! I was on the road to the South looking to get right amongst the action and Frankie delivered in spades. The two Spits opening were really good as well. Lovely mix of formation flying and solo. Lets not mention the Vulcan...good to see she flew today.

Image


I must have been stood right next to you by that gate as I have an identiical shot. Great display by Paul Bonhomme. If only other warbirds would be displayed like that :cool:
Adrian
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AMB

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby Artemis on Thu 24 Sep 2015, 3:38 pm

It was Nigel Lamb flying Ferocious Frankie, agreed it was a great display with some fantastic pictures taken!

AMB wrote:
Stuie173 wrote:Ferocious Frankie...WHAT A DISPLAY! I was on the road to the South looking to get right amongst the action and Frankie delivered in spades. The two Spits opening were really good as well. Lovely mix of formation flying and solo. Lets not mention the Vulcan...good to see she flew today.

Image


I must have been stood right next to you by that gate as I have an identiical shot. Great display by Paul Bonhomme. If only other warbirds would be displayed like that :cool:
Artemis

Re: Old Sarum Airshow- 12th & 13th September

Postby TigercatII on Tue 13 Oct 2015, 2:26 am

Finally back home after mammoth BoB UK trip. Loved every minute. Ref Old Sarum, we were not supposed to be doing any aviation that weekend but were in Salisbury "aircraft free". Guess what. Plans changed when we saw the show on this forum. Firstly let me say, yes, there were problems but most of them seemed to be behind the crowd line. The food queues were long but when we found out why we were sorry for the organisers. Guessing this shall never happen again. Ref the parking area it only took about an hour or so to clear and would have been a lot quicker if it were not for the totally ignorant and impatient drivers my husband and I witnessed trying one queue then another, barging in and generally doing nothing but upsetting those in the lines. My husband thought that the parking tickets were not really looked at in the morning as they were a tool to help the first time organisers gauge the actual numbers of vehicles that could be expected at this new show. That is yet to be proven but it seemed to work. The traffic on the main road was not assisted by those trying to turn into the traffic from uncontrolled access to the Old Sarum fort site. In fact, while we were waiting in the line we spoke to a policeman who told us someone had had a crash while trying to do a turn across traffic from the fort field. All in all the show was great and if they hold it again I am guessing that the problems with the caterers won't be repeated. The Vulcan was a disappointment but we were tuned into the airband and heard the flurry of calls when it was at Goodwood and knew what had happened. Almost immediately the announcers at Old Sarum told everyone what had happened. There seemed to be no hesitation to pass on information. Felt sorry for that Aussie guy who was part of the commentary team coming all the way from Oz to see it. If we were to be there again and the show was 'on' we would go again. That shot of Ferocious Frrankie just about sums it all up. Great displays and certainly a great place to hold a show. Organisers need to lock down a few things but congratulations to them. :tongue:
TigercatII

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