Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby farnboroughrob on Fri 30 Jun 2017, 7:36 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:P-51 that's already there is the Shark? Is Peter Teichman bringing the Spitfire, the Mustang or both?
Yes sharkmouth arrived yesterday.Good Question, don't know but maybe on each day? The Spitfire PR was specifically requested as it has Blackbushe connections.
farnboroughrob

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby wv383 on Sat 01 Jul 2017, 10:13 pm

I am very surprised that there have been no comments relating to the first day of this show. Perhaps no UKARians went. It was good however to catch up with friends that I had't seen for a good few months following my illness and finally being allowed to drive again.

It actually turned out to be a very enjoyable day and there was certainly plenty to keep the decent sized crowd happy. There were some nice aircraft available for close up inspection. Particularly notable was the only Beech 18 currently flying in the UK and which did some very noisy circuits during the day. Other statics of note were a couple of the Gazelles from the Gazelle Squadron (RAF red/white and RN 'Sharks'). First time I had met these guys and found them very welcoming. What else? Hurricane and Vega Gull from Biggin Hill, 'Sharkmouth' P-51 and Spitfire 'City of Exeter' from Goodwood, Hangar 11's 'Tall in the Saddle', Catalina, Pembroke, Stearman, Historic Army Flight Beaver & Scout, Wasp (sounded like one as well!) and many more. There were far more traders than at the fly-in twelve months ago and music all day from the likes of the RAF Odiham Wives Choir and the Rock Choir, though one or two of the other acts left a bit to be desired as far as 'tuneful' is concerned.

The announcement only 24 hours or so before with the disappearance of all 'displays' and replacement by 'flypasts and demonstrations' had a massive effect on the flying which was opened by a flypast by The Reds which was seen at the last minute due to the lack of any announcements of their arrival and the BBMF sent Hurricane PZ865 for some flypasts in place of the Lancaster which of course still hasn't flown. Other items did their best, I guess, given the totally restrictive nature of what they were allowed to do, but this failed to discourage one from feeling that the event had become a glorified 'fly-in' rather than an air display. Of course those who followed the forums and social media were aware of this but 'Joe Public', who were the majority of the visitors weren't and when they were given a list of flying participants on entry, were left somewhat bewildered when the aircraft took off, flew round the downwind side (behind them), made a flypast and landed. I know this was an event for three worthy charities, but £20 advance or £25 on the gate was about £10 too much for what was actually on offer, as far as flying was concerned.

Although getting in was a breeze with the new parking arrangement on the old north runways and shuttle bus straight to the terminal area, thus avoiding the A30 and its traffic, there were unexpected and unexplained delays in opening the gates to the showground though apologies were given. Getting out by the shuttle buses was chaos once the flying had finished. This was not because of the crowds but because some idiot had decided to tow the Catalina to the taxiway for the main runway prior to start up. The problem was that was the only route for the shuttle buses which were now completely full and blocked by the terminal. To make matters worse, one of the engines of the Catalina failed to start. Having been held on the buses, which were getting very hot, for over 45 minutes with no real explanation of what was going on or how soon we were likely to move, tempers were really starting to get frayed and resulted in many (more than half of the passengers from the bus that I was on) got off and decided to walk back to their cars. This caused many, young, old and disabled, to leave the event utterly frustrated and confirming that the organisers would be getting very disgruntled comments via whatever medium was open to them.

Until this happened, the day had been enjoyable, given the reservations in my comments above but hundreds ended up leaving feeling frustrated and angry.

Well, the commentators kept saying during the day that all comments would be welcome!

(This comment has also been sent direct to Blackbushe75 social media)
Simon
wv383

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby stuart n on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 7:03 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:So, a pilot with a DA and pre-determined and authorised display routine isn't safe, yet any Tom, Dick or Harry with or without a DA is now cleared to perform flypasts in front of the public, where dare one say it, the temptation to show off by dipping a wing or whatever might prove too great.

Well done, CAA, well done. :clap:

The CAA has left Blackbushe looking like lemons, and the public left being overcharged for a fly-in with knobs on.


Looking at the various threads on social media last night some well respected display pilots were saying this wasn't all the CAA's fault with one stating their act was cancelled months ago by the organisers due to the CAA not approving the display area. Sounds like there are questions to answer here.
stuart n

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby farnboroughrob on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 5:16 pm

Just a note after coming back from 4 days volunteering. There was 100% going to be a display, even within what rules the CAA had set down. Shortly before the display there was a change of display director and the necessary paperwork for the CAA had not been completed, by which time it was too late. To be honest I no longer think having a flying display at a small event is now worth the hassle and cost(£16k for aerobatic insurance for instance). So our guys did the best we could with what was available. Could have done with about another 10 aircraft, and yes the price was too high, but I had been saying that for months. The bus situation is always the sites downfall. The Catalina went tech on the taxiway but I had no idea about those sort of issues from where I was.
Last edited by farnboroughrob on Sun 09 Jul 2017, 2:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
farnboroughrob

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby wv383 on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 6:06 pm

Thanks Rob. I know you and the volunteers did a sterling job and as I said, what was there made for a very good day but with those reservations that I mentioned. So far I have had no reply whatsoever either to my Facebook post or my email.

By the way, well done with your book. There are many photos in there that I have never seen before.
Simon
wv383

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 9:38 pm

farnboroughrob wrote:Just a note after coming back from 4 days volunteering. There was 100% going to be a display, even within what rules the CAA had set down. Three weeks before the display the professional display director resigned and had to be replaced. Only last week we found out the old DD had forwarded none of the paperwork to the CAA, by which time it was too late. To be honest I no longer think having a flying display at a small event is now worth the hassle and cost(£16k for aerobatic insurance for instance). So our guys did the best we could with what was available. Could have done with about another 10 aircraft, and yes the price was too high, but I had been saying that for months. The bus situation is always the sites downfall. The Catalina went tech on the taxiway but I had no idea about those sort of issues from where I was.


When you're charging punters £25 a ticket, you need to be better than this. Incompetence at worst, disingenuous at best to keep taking people's money when the paperwork wasn't in place - and no checks had been done to ensure it had been. Basically you've charged people airshow prices for a glorified fly-in.

Heard the event being badmouthed by numerous people at Old Warden today. Mud sticks.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby melvyn hiscock on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 9:57 pm

I do get the feeling the audience were being asked to pay for someone else's co*k-up
melvyn hiscock

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby wv383 on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 10:21 pm

melvyn hiscock wrote:I do get the feeling the audience were being asked to pay for someone else's co*k-up


It seems that way Melvyn. To be fair, it was a great atmosphere and there were some lovely aircraft there and lots to do but as myself and others have said, it was a rip-off for what was a glorified fly-in. Organisers say that there was lots of flying. Maybe plenty of aircraft doing circuits, which were behind the crowd, but an airshow it was not. If it was known that there were problems well beforehand regardless of the fact that the announcement was only made on Thursday night, then the ticket price should have been reduced or there should be at least offers of partial refunds. As it is, so far the organisers have given no replies to any of my comments or, as far as I am aware those from anyone else.
Simon
wv383

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby melvyn hiscock on Sun 02 Jul 2017, 10:55 pm

Mmm, I wonder how early they found out. It does concern me that, without any permissions, any 'flypasts' would have had to have been at 500ft to remain legal. Whether the pilot has a DA that allows him to 50ft is irrelevant if the airfield does not have a permission in place and I think that has to be for a specific event. We have an exemption at Popham but it is for one aircraft to practice displays, not everyone. The phrase used in the literature, 'up to the pilot' looks like a cop out, after all if I arive in my aeroplane having booked to do a display, am I going to be paid if I refuse to do a 'flypast' at anything less than 500ft. This could put pressure on pilots to perform but does not cover them for any infringements to the rules they may make.

I wonder what repercussions there will be.
melvyn hiscock

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby farnboroughrob on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 7:30 am

I can genuinely say that the problems were not known until late on Wednesday, and the new plan was hatched on Thursday. There was no conspiracy to rip people off just the best was made of a bad situation. It certainly was not a glorified fly-in because it had all the ground elements of an airshow and P-51's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Ansons, Pembrokes, daks etc do not turn up at fly-ins. Plus at no point as the word airshow been officially used. I am told the facts were also revealed to local media and in fact appeared on local BBC news on the Friday evening?

I have certainly come away from the experience with great respect for those that do volunteer at these events, it is bloody hard work. Although being able to wander once the public have gone is nice.
More-so I really do think that airfield based flying displays at more urban locations are really under threat. I really doubt if the likes of Kemble, North Weald, and Lee-on-Solent will every hold a full blown air show again. You sadly need a location not near a A road, industrial sites, or habitation, and there are not many of them.
farnboroughrob

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 9:17 am

farnboroughrob wrote:I can genuinely say that the problems were not known until late on Wednesday, and the new plan was hatched on Thursday. There was no conspiracy to rip people off just the best was made of a bad situation. It certainly was not a glorified fly-in because it had all the ground elements of an airshow and P-51's, Spitfires, Hurricanes, Ansons, Pembrokes, daks etc do not turn up at fly-ins. Plus at no point as the word airshow been officially used. I am told the facts were also revealed to local media and in fact appeared on local BBC news on the Friday evening?

I have certainly come away from the experience with great respect for those that do volunteer at these events, it is bloody hard work. Although being able to wander once the public have gone is nice.
More-so I really do think that airfield based flying displays at more urban locations are really under threat. I really doubt if the likes of Kemble, North Weald, and Lee-on-Solent will every hold a full blown air show again. You sadly need a location not near a A road, industrial sites, or habitation, and there are not many of them.


Funny how this thread title changed from "airshow" to "Festival of Flight" on Friday...
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby farnboroughrob on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 10:35 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
farnboroughrob wrote:
Funny how this thread title changed from "airshow" to "Festival of Flight" on Friday...
I changed that because that was the official title of the event. I loosely put 'airshow' when I started the thread because it had no official title back then.
farnboroughrob

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby vintage ATCO on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 6:29 pm

melvyn hiscock wrote:without any permissions, any 'flypasts' would have had to have been at 500ft to remain legal. Whether the pilot has a DA that allows him to 50ft is irrelevant if the airfield does not have a permission in place and I think that has to be for a specific event.


The height is irrelevant. A Flying Display is defined as "Any flying activity deliberately performed for the purpose of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an event that has been advertised and is open to the public."
vA
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vintage ATCO

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby melvyn hiscock on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 6:37 pm

vintage ATCO wrote:The height is irrelevant. A Flying Display is defined as "Any flying activity deliberately performed for the purpose of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an event that has been advertised and is open to the public."


Yes, but rule 5 applies also.
melvyn hiscock

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby vintage ATCO on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 6:57 pm

The current Rule 5 has nothing to do with Low Flying. The 500ft bit is now contained in SERA 5005(f)(2) which is itself amended by ORS4 1174 which restores the 'no closer than 500ft to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure'.

But this is irrelevant. Any flight 'deliberately performed for the purpose of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an event that has been advertised and is open to the public' is a Flying Display in my view.
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Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby Spotty_Jag on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 7:07 pm

Straight from CAP403:
FLYING DISPLAY - "Any flying activity deliberately performed for the purpose of providing an exhibition or entertainment at an event that has been advertised and is open to the public."
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Spotty_Jag

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby farnboroughrob on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 7:57 pm

From what i heard the idea of flypasts, t&g's etc came from the CAA who said normal airport operations could still happen. It is such a grey area, I have seen plenty of 'beat ups' at fly-ins, is that considered a air display? What about demo flights at trade shows?? Anyway its all over now, its only a flying display after all, not exactly the end of the world!
farnboroughrob

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby lynothehammer on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 8:32 pm

farnboroughrob wrote:From what i heard the idea of flypasts, t&g's etc came from the CAA who said normal airport operations could still happen. It is such a grey area, I have seen plenty of 'beat ups' at fly-ins, is that considered a air display? What about demo flights at trade shows?? Anyway its all over now, its only a flying display after all, not exactly the end of the world!


It is to some of the people in this hobby.

Either way it was a fantastic weekend to celebrate a big milestone for Blackbushe & hopefully Aerobility / Help for Heroes / DDMT have all benefitted from this event...
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lynothehammer

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby vintage ATCO on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 8:38 pm

To you it may be a hobby; to some of us it's a profession.
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vintage ATCO

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby lynothehammer on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 9:17 pm

vintage ATCO wrote:To you it may be a hobby; to some of us it's a profession.


And?

Regardless of whats happened, the organisers made the best of a bad situation and whilst it wasn't what the hardened airshow goer would want i would imagine most of Joe Public went home happy.
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lynothehammer

Re: Blackbushe 75th anniversary festival of flight1-2 July

Postby wv383 on Mon 03 Jul 2017, 9:24 pm

lynothehammer wrote:
vintage ATCO wrote:To you it may be a hobby; to some of us it's a profession.


i would imagine most of Joe Public went home happy.


The ones stuck on the shuttle buses in the heat or the hundreds waiting for those buses due to the Catalina blocking the only taxiway certainly were anything but happy!
Simon
wv383

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