Premier League run in and VAR

Premier League run in and VAR

Postby CJS on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 10:35 pm

Well soccer (or if you're Mr Cable, 'chavball') fans, with Man City demolishing the once mediocre Arsenal this evening (how much longer can Monsieur Wenger really last, or would his payoff just be too much??), the title looks to be done and dusted, but the fight for the top 4 once again looks close as anything. Being a Spurs fan, I'd like the rest of the top 4 to contain Spurs, Man U and Liverpool. Certainly, it seems the only other club in it are Chelsea for now.

But what of VAR? On trial only I know, but what do you think? Personally I do see how it interrupts the flow of the game, but if that means the right decision is made then I'd rather that in the end. I do see though how RU, cricket and tennis are more suited to the technology as they are more stop/start anyway.

Be interested to know just how much it's hated / loved in Germany, by fans and clubs - Dan O' you'd probably have a good idea!
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 10:58 pm

VAR is in the first year of a two-year trial in the Bundesliga, and so far it has worked much, much better than in England. There've been controversial moments (disallowing Koln's potentially vital late winning goal in a recent game being one that stands out), but these have mainly been when VAR has not been used rather than on occasions when it has. A case in point was Werder Bremen's late winner in last week's Nordderby with their bitter rivals Hamburg, which effectively relegates them for the first time. Because the mistake (in this case an offside) was not "clear and obvious" the goal was allowed to stand. And that's been the problem in England - the officials are told only if the mistake is clear and obvious must VAR be used, and they're so terrified of being shown up by the technology, they're referring to it much too often.

In the Spurs-Rochdale tie, VAR was used 5-6 times in the first half alone. I must have called 40 games in the Bundesliga this season, and in not a single game has there been more than one VAR referral. I'd say in the course of those 40 games VAR has been used perhaps eight times. And these are generally the "Topspiel der Woche" matches, where the stakes are highest and the scrutiny most intense.

If you believe in conspiracies, I do wonder if the English officials have clubbed together to make as big a hash of VAR as possible, as they feel it treads on their toes too much. No doubt that in Germany, and in Italy, VAR has been better implemented and with far less controversy.

The fans however don't like it. There've been banners at several stadiums protesting about how VAR ruins the instantaneous joy of a goal being scored and how it slows the game down too much. Imagine the 1966 World Cup Final - Geoff Hurst scores the infamous third England goal, the country goes mad, then a minute later the referee calls play back for a West German free-kick...

My own view has changed. At the start of the season I was very pro-VAR, but as the season's progressed you get to see how it takes away some of the energy and excitement from the game, all in the name of correcting a handful of errors, honestly made. At the start of the season I had a meeting with Helmut Krug who was (then) the head of the Bundesliga's VAR project. He said that the aim wasn't to be 100% correct with every decision, but only on the ones which change games (ie penalties, offsides, mistaken identity and violent conduct). For the sake of taking correct decisions from say 95% to 98%, I'm not entirely sure it's worth it.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby CJS on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 11:04 pm

Cheers Dan, interesting to know. I did hear a similar theory today, likened to that old one about blokes deliberately doing the vacuuming badly so they never get asked to do it again...

Didn't actually see my mob beating Rochdale last night but from what I gather the score could / should have been rather different! Clarity is certainly needed, both beforehand and in the stadia at the time, for the benefit of the fans.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 01 Mar 2018, 11:06 pm

CJS wrote:Cheers Dan, interesting to know. I did hear a similar theory today, likened to that old one about blokes deliberately doing the vacuuming badly so they never get asked to do it again...

Didn't actually see my mob beating Rochdale last night but from what I gather the score could / should have been rather different! Clarity is certainly needed, both beforehand and in the stadia at the time, for the benefit of the fans.


Added a little more to the answer, about how it's not been taken on board by the majority of fans.

I'd also say that the fans in the stadium need to be better informed. It's crazy that the paying punters are left in the dark while the TV viewers at home can see what's going on. Incidents being replayed on big screens, and officials microphoned-up like in American sports would go a long way to getting fans respecting VAR more.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 3:17 am

Some people aren't fans of it's use in cricket or rugby.

To prevent it's misuse/abuse, why not follow the same policy they have in cricket?
If they follow the ODI/ 20-20 system, each team would only have one appeal per half ( successful or not, once they use it that's it )
If they follow the 5-day system, each team would still have one appeal per half, but if the appeal is successful they get another one ( if unsuccessful, they don't )
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby starbuck on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 10:34 am

I like the system they use in the NFL and NHL of allowing the coaches to challenge decisions which is very similar to the captains challenge in cricket. It puts more responsibility onto the coaches and removes the post match vilification of the referees with comments like "how he didn't see that when everybody in the ground could see it was a penalty" after having had the benefit of multiple viewings from 20 different angles. Put your money where your mouth is there and then, or more accurately put your money where your players mouth is. It would remove the situation where you have players diving in the box for penalties or committing bear hugs at corners, let the players signal to the bench that they didn't touch him as he went down or that he was being grappled to the floor as the cross came in.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 10:48 am

In theory it should be perfect; a referee watches the video feed and can communicate with the on-field ref. Should be fairly instantaneous, or at worst a couple of replays, for a decision to come. So the poor implementation is baffling. The on-field ref in the Spurs game the other night just defaulted to the VAR far too easily, letting him off the decision making hook. Not so bad second half but the game was very one sided by then.

Of all the sports that use assistance, rugby league does it best. Unpretentiously called the 'video ref', the on field ref gestures a square in the air if and only if there is some doubt over a try award. Then again, its only used on marginal try awards, not every other outfield incident which seemed to be happening on Monday night.

As Dan says, it needs to be used sparingly - penalties and goals, not outfield fouls.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Craig on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 12:56 pm

It was the penalty call that baffled me and not so much in terms of the VAR but the deciaion. Player is fouled, ref halts the game, punishment awarded. But instead because they felt the foul continued after the ref had spotted the infringement, by which time the player had entered the area, It's a penalty. This seems rather odd to me. If the ref gives the advantage but then the player is fouled again is one thing but a foul "continuing into the area"? That takes a little more getting your head around.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby BDL on Fri 02 Mar 2018, 1:50 pm

I think VAR in the Premier League is inevitable, but it needs to be far better run also it needs to be on Screens in the stadium (Like Rugby and Cricket). I also think that 4th Officials need to be more involved and be able to assist/influence decisions.

As for the run in, well Arsenal fans really make me chuckle with their perceived divine right to finish in the top four. They should try following a team that has the richest owner in its history, who wont spend a penny on the squad and tries to influence team selection.

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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby aviodromefriend on Wed 07 Mar 2018, 8:21 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:VAR is in the first year of a two-year trial in the Bundesliga, and so far it has worked much, much better than in England. There've been controversial moments (disallowing Koln's potentially vital late winning goal in a recent game being one that stands out), but these have mainly been when VAR has not been used rather than on occasions when it has. A case in point was Werder Bremen's late winner in last week's Nordderby with their bitter rivals Hamburg, which effectively relegates them for the first time. Because the mistake (in this case an offside) was not "clear and obvious" the goal was allowed to stand. And that's been the problem in England - the officials are told only if the mistake is clear and obvious must VAR be used, and they're so terrified of being shown up by the technology, they're referring to it much too often.

In the Spurs-Rochdale tie, VAR was used 5-6 times in the first half alone. I must have called 40 games in the Bundesliga this season, and in not a single game has there been more than one VAR referral. I'd say in the course of those 40 games VAR has been used perhaps eight times. And these are generally the "Topspiel der Woche" matches, where the stakes are highest and the scrutiny most intense.
Strange, while watching Sportschau every weekend I don't remember any match in the Bundesliga without multiple interventions from Köln. Also the first half of the season was so much of a disaster that the referees had been given their instructions again, when the use of the VAR was allowed (The VARs intervened with every mistake the referees made, a bit like the German attitude "Pünktlich wie immer und Ordnung muss sein"). Also there were anonimous referees claiming that as soon as the people that delivered the system moved away, the material they had to work with was too bad to see what happened.

On the whole, I think VAR could be used better than it is in football. If something is going on, show the people in the stadium what is being looked at, so they know what is going on. Other sports have shown how it can improve the "experience" (OUGH, just hate the word :sick: ) for the fans.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby disgruntled on Tue 13 Mar 2018, 2:43 pm

I find the objections to VAR laughable. How many times do we hear supporters, players or managers moaning that the referee got it wrong and that it cost "us" the game. Alternatively, so called "expert" commentators also berate officials for making "wrong" decisions after they themselves have had the benefit of the same technology that is apparently unsuitable to be used by the real match officials. It is ironic that the authorities come up with a solution and the same people then moan that it is spoiling "their" game and that football is all about mistakes etc etc.

The evidence of VAR working is undeniable. Rugby League, Rugby Union, Cricket, NFL, NHL, Tennis and so on have all adopted the technology and are all the better for it. To try to elevate football onto some higher plane than these other sports is ridiculous.

As for not showing the footage at the ground, I can only guess that this is because the footballing authorities are concerned that the stereotypical football "fan" can't be trusted to remain objective and not use it as an excuse to start crowd trouble.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Orayan on Tue 13 Mar 2018, 3:01 pm

The VAR has been in trial this year in Belgium also, but only for 2 games per matchday. Is this also the case in premier league/bundesliga? If so, how is it decided which games get the VAR in your leagues, because in Belgium, it seems mostly random. Also there has been a lot of times, especially in the early season, when the VAR was in place, but not used "due to technical issues".
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby aviodromefriend on Tue 13 Mar 2018, 7:14 pm

disgruntled wrote:so called "expert" commentators also berate officials for making "wrong" decisions after they themselves have had the benefit of the same technology that is apparently unsuitable to be used by the real match officials.
Doesn't stop a certain commentator (no Dan, not you!) from telling something else happened than was shown on the technology they have the benefit of...
disgruntled wrote:I can only guess that this is because the footballing authorities are concerned that the stereotypical football "fan" can't be trusted to remain objective and not use it as an excuse to start crowd trouble.
Ah, like the "fans" that attacked the VAR in its van they used during the Dutch Cup tournament last year. Since then the tests with VARs were changed into working from a fixed place not in or near the stadium.
Orayan wrote:The VAR has been in trial this year in Belgium also, but only for 2 games per matchday. Is this also the case in premier league/bundesliga?
Bundesliga has it on every match, I'm just not sure if the VAR is looking at one match at the same time or working more than one.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby psquiddy on Tue 13 Mar 2018, 10:46 pm

only for 2 games per matchday. Is this also the case in premier league/bundesliga?


I dont think it has been used in the Premier league, but it has been used in the FA cup.

I guess if they used it in some league matches but not others there may be a case for concern over the number of var games per team , but in a knockout tournament any benefit or otherwise is only applicable to each game.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Ken Shabby on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 3:59 pm

BDL wrote:I think VAR in the Premier League is inevitable, but it needs to be far better run also it needs to be on Screens in the stadium (Like Rugby and Cricket). I also think that 4th Officials need to be more involved and be able to assist/influence decisions.

As for the run in, well Arsenal fans really make me chuckle with their perceived divine right to finish in the top four. They should try following a team that has the richest owner in its history, who wont spend a penny on the squad and tries to influence team selection.

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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby disgruntled on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 3:53 pm

Went to the England v Italy game last night and had a thoroughly enjoyable evening with my son. However... the uproar that greeted the VAR decision was ridiculous. Chants of "Shove your VAR up your horse" ( I'm sure that's what they said...) and claims that the referee was a "Typical cheating German" abounded.
"We were robbed"
"How is that football"
"It ruined the game"
"It's the referee's fault"
"It's VAR's fault"
I heard all these comments on the way out.
No, you blinded fools, it was the defender's fault. If he hadn't committed the foul then there would have been no penalty. Indeed the Italian player may well have been sent off for simulation.

Football "Fans" - get with the 21st Century and stop trying to blame everyone else when a correct decision goes against your team!!!!
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby toom317 on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 7:08 pm

I think the problem with VAR in football is, for most of the sports it is used in, they are suited to play stopping and starting. Football isn't like that, it is fluid. I'd rather see it done away with, and anyway, it is always good to moan about the Refs decisions, and how we woz robbed.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby CJS on Sat 05 May 2018, 2:16 pm

Well that's Stoke relegated, now with a bit of luck spurs fail to do any favours for West Bromwich...COYS :-)
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Wes_Howes on Sat 05 May 2018, 4:16 pm

CJS wrote:Well that's Stoke relegated, now with a bit of luck spurs fail to do any favours for West Bromwich...COYS :-)

You can NEVER trust Spurs to produce a result that you want :grin: Oh well, it's the hope that kills you Baggies fans :tongue2:
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby MarkL on Sat 05 May 2018, 5:13 pm

Aghhhhhh Spurs.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby centaurus18 on Sat 05 May 2018, 6:38 pm

My fear for Southampton is that they will be relegated by two points, or more simply because of this....

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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby ericbee123 on Sat 05 May 2018, 7:18 pm

The evidence of VAR working is undeniable. Rugby League, Rugby Union, Cricket, NFL, NHL, Tennis and so on have all adopted the technology and are all the better for it. To try to elevate football onto some higher plane than these other sports is ridiculous


Is it a “higher plane” or the fact that football is a pure game with the same rules for every level of the game, from Sunday league to Premier League.

Rugby League, Union , Cricket and Tennis have “different” rules depending on if your game is televised or not. With regards RL only the live games on Sky have video refs, other games in the same league , even on the same night don’t have a video ref. International cricket has a video umpire and whatever county game might be on TV might, most other games don’t. You are at the subjective decision of an umpire. These sports allow the video ref to enhance their TV appeal for televised games . Not to make grass roots or even most games fair.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Mooshie1956 on Sat 05 May 2018, 7:32 pm

Not quite VAR but look at last night match and Brightons goal. Without goal line technology how many people would have given a goal, and be truthful not the usual anti Man U bias.Even replays couldn't show it cross the line.
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Re: Premier League run in and VAR

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 06 May 2018, 1:50 pm

Bugger.....Cardiff promoted. :sad:
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