Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby CJS on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 5:48 pm

Sorry Tom, that's my fault, but I wanted to set up the poll and there was no way to add that to someone else's existing thread, hence starting this one.
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Tommy on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 6:25 pm

It was said without criticism, Chris.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 8:45 pm

:up: that's what I thought, but still, I'm British, so I apologised :grin: . Out of interest, can you add a poll to an existing thread?
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Re: Would you vote for a new referendum?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 8:50 pm

Tommy wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:
Tommy wrote:If judgement is handed down before December 11th,
it would have significant implications on the debate in Parliament

And if it's delayed until after 29 March ( which some cynics think it will be ) it'll be irrelevant as far as the UK is concerned.




I don't think that's a coincidence. So it will form part of the debate available to Parliament. I still think the judgment will be what I said earlier in this thread, but it's a stab in the dark. You can never truly predict these things.

Whatever the judgment is, its impact on the debate will be immensely significant.


Psst.... :ninja: 3 posts above yours.... :ninja:
:biggrin:

Interesting watching the news & programmes like 'Daily Politics' over the past few days.....
Kier Starmer ( I think ) is pushing through a bill(?) before the main debate on Tuesday, with the intention of removing the 'no deal' option altogether & appears to have the support of some of the pro-Leave MPs.
Calls for either a second referendum, or for Parliament to have the option of instructing the PM to repeal Article 50 also seems to be growing among MPs who supported Leave ( except for the hard-liners ) and they all seem to be using the justification that "people didn't vote for a no-deal Brexit" or "The people didn't realise......"
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby speedbird2639 on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 9:06 pm

Parliament to have the option of instructing the PM to repeal Article 50


I think this is what will happen - they will announce "Well the referendum was never binding and you always knew that so, having taken nearly 3 years to weigh up all the pros and cons, we've decided to shelve the whole project."

Then GE in June 2019.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 9:45 pm

Some of the MPs have said that the recent immigration figures have been responsible for changing the opinions of some of their constituents.

For anyone who missed them, net immigration from the EU has dropped significantly.....but the number of immigrants from outside the EU has risen markedly and effectively matched the drop in those from the EU.

Unsurprisingly, the complaint from some Leave voters who voted to do so in order to have more control ( and reduce the number ) of immigration is along the lines of "What's the point of leaving if we're just going to let more in from elsewhere"

Mind you, I did laugh at one of the Leave voters speaking on Radio 5 the other day.....
He supported a hard-line no-deal Brexit.
His reason for doing so?
Because if we leave with no deal, we can re-join in a few years & completely renegotiate all the deals we've got! :dizzy:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 06 Dec 2018, 11:37 pm

I think there is a fundamental flaw in assuming Leave voters are stupid, white, racist and old.

There are old, stupid , white, racist remainers too.

There is also a fundamental flaw in assuming Remain will win another referendum.

There are a lot of people who resent being told they are racists who didn’t know what they voted for.

I live in a 60/40 Leave area and from my discussions that hasn’t changed. You might live in a 60/40 Remain area where there has been a change in attitude ( they say ) of your Leave voters, but my area is likely to be 80/20 Leave now in Brexitref 2.

There is massive hatred of the condescending attitude of Remain, the Establishment and the EU.

2019 won’t be plain sailing with a reversal of Article 50 and instant nectar and gold for everyone.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 12:17 am

The person I'm referring to in the final comment happened to be a young black university student.

If you re-read what I posted, it's Leave MPs who are referring to their constituent's.

"Assuming Leave voters are stupid, white, racist and old"...... that seems to be used all too often as a way of trying to stifle debate.
Is it racist or stupid to want to control - and decrease - net immigration? No, and it's not just Leave voters who want that to happen.

As for "white and old", maybe every single UK broadcaster & newspaper are conspiring with Remain campaigners, because the overwhelming number of Leave voters who feature in the media are white & old ( and usually male )
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 12:28 am

That last statement doesn’t make sense. Your leave example was young and black, yet you say the press use mainly old, white Leave voters.
Last edited by ericbee123 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 12:32 am

Yes. I do agree the press, the establishment and even this forum are guilty of portraying Leave voters as stupid, old, white racists.

It’s a dangerous game.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 12:47 am

Even if all Leave voters are old, white racists. You don’t don’t change their mind by calling them old, white racists who didn’t know what they voted for.

I voted Remain, I’m an old, white, right winger who votes Tory and thinks Margret Thatcher was left wing.

My friend is a “dyed in the wool” Labour voter and Amnestity International member, who’s views on the poor and the needy, frankly disgust me, he’s a staunch Leave voter who resents people telling him that he didn’t know what he voted for.

There in a nutshell is the problem the establishment have.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 3:01 am

Going back through the last few pages of posts, the only person equating Leave voters with being old, white & racist is yourself.
Or are you taking my comments about Leave voters being unhappy about the immigration levels as being racially motivated?

That last statement doesn’t make sense. Your leave example was young and black, yet you say the press use mainly old, white Leave voters.

Yes, it does - you use 'mainly', I used 'overwhelmingly'......what's the dictionary definition of those two words? :wink:
Depending on where the interview/programme is taking place, you will see the occasional black or Asian person saying they voted Leave, but in my experience you don't see many of them.
It should also be remembered that it's not only white people who are racist.

That said, remember that part of the Leave campaign I posted the image of in another topic :

Image

If they didn't think it would have an influence, why did they use it?
( And oh, look...an old, white bloke! )
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 4:17 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46480372
British expats who want Brexit to be halted because of "corrupt practices" during the 2016 referendum are having their case heard in the High Court.

The UK in EU Challenge group says the result should be quashed because of "misconduct" by pro-Leave campaigners.

Both Vote Leave and Leave.EU have been fined for breaches of electoral law.

An earlier attempt to challenge the result was rejected on the grounds that it had not been proven that any wrongdoing affected the vote's outcome.
(snip)
The campaigners' written arguments were dismissed at a preliminary hearing in September, when Mr Justice Supperstone ruled that the electoral watchdog, in punishing the two leave campaigns, had not established that the referendum result had been "procured by fraud".

The campaigners have now been granted an oral hearing in front of Mr Justice Ouseley.

If he decides to grant a judicial review, the campaigners have asked for it be expedited, saying it is a "matter of urgency" the matter is dealt with before the UK's scheduled departure on 29 March 2019.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 07 Dec 2018, 5:41 pm

Nobody here has said that all Leave voters are old white racist men.

The only one person said anything remotely close to that was swiftly rounded upon by everyone, and Brexiteers defending themselves against a nonexistent accusation.

Every time there's a debate in this thread, it's the Brexiteers bringing up that line.

It's vastly stupid, idiotic, moronic, and various other tautologies for pig-thick to assume that all Brexiteers are old white racist men. And anyone who does make that argument (of which I'm yet to find anyone on here) isn't worth the time taken to respond.

Any remainers who think that all Brexiteers are thick racists are just as bad and unworthy of time as the minority of actual racist thick/untruthful Brexiteers.

Its worth noting, though, that any side of the debate that does attract the racists and general douchebags is usually a red flag for you to leave that side of the debate, even if you're clearly not racist.

Brexiteer political strategy is very good at directing the conversation away from the facts and things that exist, into the emotional fantastical tales and arguments in defence of an utterly ludicrous non-existent accusation.

Similar principle to the god-awful RIAT moaning phenomenon each year in April - one person makes a stupid un-nuanced "moan", and about twenty people moan back at them, and then people see all those faux-outraged twenty-odd posts and think "crikey there must be a lot of negativity. I'd better comment and say that ALL of UKAR are moaners and negative and entitled and spoilt..."

Guarantee it'll happen again next spring. And I guarantee Brexiteers will raise either unprompted, or with very little prompt, how they aren't racist. When noone of note had called them racist.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 3:10 pm

Hmmm.....
Watching the news this afternoon....
BoJo not looking his usual dishevelled self - not only sans his trademark unkemp barnet, he even looks like he's had a haircut! :shock:
Mayhaps preparing to open a leadership challenge?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 5:37 pm

They can smell the end of May regarding the defeat on Tues and lining up to make their bids for leadership. Not one decent candidate within the whole lot of them IMHO. How did it come to this?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 7:05 pm

I blame Brexit........oh, hang on...... :lol:

You alluded to one answer in one of your previous posts, where you said
and thinks Margret Thatcher was left wing

Funnily enough, that gels with comments made on Radio 4 the other week, where they said that the Conservative Party have been moving further & further to the left in recent decades in an attempt to capture 'centrist voters' ( just as Labour moved further to the right to do the same ) so that neither Party represents what used to be their core supporters any more.
There are very few traditional Tory MPs left, just as there are very few traditional Labour ones, and in both cases they are viewed as political dinosaurs who tend to get ignored or ridiculed.
It says a lot that the party which seems to be attracting defectors isn't UKIP - which is rapidly self-destructing - but the SDLP.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby tankbuster on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 8:11 pm

Anybody watch the C4 debate, trying to judge dispassionately. I thought Caroline Lucas came first , Jason RM at the other end of the spectrum 2nd, Barry Gardner a distant 3rd and James cleverly for the TM deal a very poor fourth. Did anybody see it differently|?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 10:16 pm

tankbuster wrote:Anybody watch the C4 debate, trying to judge dispassionately. I thought Caroline Lucas came first , Jason RM at the other end of the spectrum 2nd, Barry Gardner a distant 3rd and James cleverly for the TM deal a very poor fourth. Did anybody see it differently|?

I would agree that Caroline Lucas was by far the best speaker, as she was during the election debates of 2017. The rest of them were all much the same - JRM giving no details, as usual, Labour failing to make any sense at all, just promising different flavoured Unicorns to the likes of JRM and the 'Deal' that leaves us worse off in every regard.

Debate is here for those that missed it:

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sun 09 Dec 2018, 11:50 pm

I'm very unsure how I feel about the next 48hours which on paper are to be amongst the most significant in the Brexit process.

I think, as I've thought before, much will hang on the judgment due to be handed down tomorrow. If it goes as I think it will and many predict, it'll be the final nail for May.

However, if the vote goes ahead, lonely voice though I may be, but I can also see a circumstance where it passes. Somehow Theresa is still here, despite her vast incompetence (which has been plain to see since around December 2016), and everytime the weight of public and political opinion *thinks* something is going to happen, the opposite tends to be the case.

If that court judgment states that the UK can unilaterally withdraw Article 50, there is comfort for rational level-headed Brexiteers, of which there are quite a few:

As far as I know, Article 50 can be triggered by any member at any time, and in theory more than once (if it can be found to be withdrawn).

It's almost universally acknowledged that one of May's biggest blunders was dancing her way to Brussels with Article 50 in hand still riding high on the euphoria of Brexiteers' support with zero preparation.

The comfort to Brexiteers seems to be this;

To my mind, there is nothing stopping the UK from holding their hands up and saying "this is ridiculous for both of us". We could withdraw Article 50, if that's what the judgment tomorrow says, find a way to resolve the negotiations and keep negotiating until we have the deal the country wants (or politicians thinks it wants), and then re-trigger the process where we can actually work out some trade details, or the only points left are crossing "t"s and dotting "i"s.

That is what should have been done at the start. Meticulous preparation, focus, set objectives and a plan to achieve them. Instead we had all this nonsense "keeping her cards close to her chest" - remember that? Well her one of her biggest cards was complete and unfettered control over Article 50. We're hours away from hearing whether we might have that card put back into the meagre remains of her deck.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 8:10 am

There it is:



We can revoke Article 50, without the EU's consent. Meaning that if we regret Brexit, or no-longer see any upsides to Brexit, we can go back to the EU on the terms we used to be, without having to take back a begging-bowl, or re-join in the future with a worse relationship than we have now.

We can properly plan for Brexit, do it sensibly, and then trigger Article 50 at a later date if the "will of the people" still demands it, which I don't think it does, and we can do this properly.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 11:08 am

Article 50 is the process by which the Withdrawal Agreement is settled. The WA outlines how you leave; in our case, the main things to be resolved are a financial settlement, citizen's rights and the Irish border. That's it, essentially.

Everything else - everything - is to be decided after you leave. There is no "sorting out trade" until you have left. Those are the terms of the treaty.

You only get a transition period to decide those things whilst your existing arrangements roll over for continuity IF a Withdrawal Agreement has been signed.

No WA means no transition. No transition means that "all the treaties cease to apply" as of 23:01 on 29th March.

The only thing that could/would change if we withdrew A50 with the intention to start over would be that we could have a better idea of what we wanted from the non-binding Political Declaration. All the WA stuff would be the same unless we wanted to stay in the SM and CU to ease the Irish border issue.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 11:44 am

While MPs all run around like headless chickens the Civil Servants are still completing and handing in papers to the WTO outlining our proposed WTO terms. This time for Services.

https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news ... ec18_e.htm
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 11:58 am

Vote tomorrow has been pulled it seems...
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 12:08 pm

Do you have a source? Nothing on BBC.
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