Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 13 May 2019, 9:09 am

pbeardmore wrote:Ramping up emotion and having a binary outlook has characterized the debate on both sides (clearly seen more recently in the Commons) plus the inability to see the argument from other sides. I also have to travel to the EU for work. On the basis that a ban on business travel was never on the cards, the completion of a visa application or similar and standing in a longer queue is an inconvenience (honestly, the best word I can find) but use of the word "terror" when faced with such a possibility is clearly wrong (are business staff in a sense of terror at the moment at the thought of business trips to non-EU countries?):

also an insult IMHO to those around the planet who genuinely do live their lives in terror. We desperately need a sense of perspective.


Extraordinary.

They walk among us, folks.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Spiny Norman on Mon 13 May 2019, 11:15 am

ExVulcanGC wrote:Quite amusing to see that there are those who want to continue to be controlled by the Brussel's bigots, simpletons and fascists, that is truly “terrifying”. :biggrin:


If we were being, as you say, controlled in this way, how come we are able to leave?

It's the biggest fallacy of the Brexit movement that we don't have control, sovereignty , etc, when we had it all along. The classic "fake news" and on a very large scale.

What is fascistic is the way Farage and his cronies insist in a zealous way that we must listen to the "will of the people" and leave the EU at any cost. A true and free democracy can change its mind - and elect to remain if it so wishes.

Bullying and harassing those who oppose "their will" is fascism in a nutshell.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 13 May 2019, 2:21 pm

It's a bit of a Catch 22 Spiny!

If we can't leave, we should leave... if we can leave, maybe we shouldn't ...(though I still think we should).

I still stand by my prediction that we will never leave the EU though.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Tue 14 May 2019, 11:25 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Ramping up emotion and having a binary outlook has characterized the debate on both sides (clearly seen more recently in the Commons) plus the inability to see the argument from other sides. I also have to travel to the EU for work. On the basis that a ban on business travel was never on the cards, the completion of a visa application or similar and standing in a longer queue is an inconvenience (honestly, the best word I can find) but use of the word "terror" when faced with such a possibility is clearly wrong (are business staff in a sense of terror at the moment at the thought of business trips to non-EU countries?):

also an insult IMHO to those around the planet who genuinely do live their lives in terror. We desperately need a sense of perspective.


Extraordinary.

They walk among us, folks.


C'mon Dan, even for you that seems a bit of a pointless post.

I don't agree with pb regarding Brexit (although I do agree with this post) but I fail to see where your comment has come from this time. It doesn't add anything to the debate, which pb was trying to do.

Maybe use some of that considerable journalistic talent to, I dunno, give a well structured argument that clearly sets out your reasons for disagreeing with the comment or something.

I don't often comment on other people's comments when they don't involve me, but you just do yourself no favours sometimes.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 14 May 2019, 12:24 pm

Thanks CJS,

to try to put it another way, I don't have the option of applying for an Irish passport and will still be travelling to Europe on business. It never entered my head to be terrified at the possibility of free travel ending. Perhaps I'm just pure stupid (a gift for you there Dan), what have I missed that Dan and other terrified business travellers haven't? why should I and other business travellers in my position be terrified?

It's a fair question IMHO. Happy to become terrified if someone can point me toward the justification. I was always under the impression that panic and terror were not part of the British culture/make-up. I always thought it was "stiff upper lip", "keep calm and carry one" and "put the kettle on" but perhaps times have changed.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 14 May 2019, 12:48 pm

pbeardmore wrote:Thanks CJS,

to try to put it another way, I don't have the option of applying for an Irish passport and will still be travelling to Europe on business. It never entered my head to be terrified at the possibility of free travel ending. Perhaps I'm just pure stupid (a gift for you there Dan), what have I missed that Dan and other terrified business travellers haven't? why should I and other business travellers in my position be terrified?

It's a fair question IMHO. Happy to become terrified if someone can point me toward the justification. I was always under the impression that panic and terror were not part of the British culture/make-up. I always thought it was "stiff upper lip", "keep calm and carry one" and "put the kettle on" but perhaps times have changed.


And the benefits of making travel to Europe, business or otherwise, more difficult are?

Go on, I’ve got to hear this.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Tue 14 May 2019, 1:04 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Thanks CJS,

to try to put it another way, I don't have the option of applying for an Irish passport and will still be travelling to Europe on business. It never entered my head to be terrified at the possibility of free travel ending. Perhaps I'm just pure stupid (a gift for you there Dan), what have I missed that Dan and other terrified business travellers haven't? why should I and other business travellers in my position be terrified?

It's a fair question IMHO. Happy to become terrified if someone can point me toward the justification. I was always under the impression that panic and terror were not part of the British culture/make-up. I always thought it was "stiff upper lip", "keep calm and carry one" and "put the kettle on" but perhaps times have changed.


And the benefits of making travel to Europe, business or otherwise, more difficult are?

Go on, I’ve got to hear this.


One benefit for you Dan is, if we leave the EU and when the Schengen Travel Visa comes in, then some of the least desirable British tourists might be refused entry, if they have to disclose their criminal convictions. You will only have honest upright British citizens on your flight and in your hotel.

I qualify for a Danish and an Irish passport. I’m not rushing out to get either as the Euro/Schengen Visa is only £6 for 3 years. Much cheaper than buying either a Danish or an Irish passport.

Edit - another benefit might be, if we don’t leave the EU then American, Japanese, Australian , etc tourists/visitors will be forced to get this Euro/Schengen VISA to visit the EU and the U.K. If we leave the EU we could decide to keep Visa free travel for Americans, Japanese and Australian visitors making the U.K. the defacto “go to” European country if you are a visitor from one of these countries and can’t be bothered , or leave it to late , to get a Visa.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Airshowhammer on Tue 14 May 2019, 1:16 pm

Have to laugh. Imagine being part of an airshow forum and your most active topic is......Brexit. And to go and change your avatar to something related. As dangerous as the people on the far right.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Tue 14 May 2019, 1:23 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Thanks CJS,

to try to put it another way, I don't have the option of applying for an Irish passport and will still be travelling to Europe on business. It never entered my head to be terrified at the possibility of free travel ending. Perhaps I'm just pure stupid (a gift for you there Dan), what have I missed that Dan and other terrified business travellers haven't? why should I and other business travellers in my position be terrified?

It's a fair question IMHO. Happy to become terrified if someone can point me toward the justification. I was always under the impression that panic and terror were not part of the British culture/make-up. I always thought it was "stiff upper lip", "keep calm and carry one" and "put the kettle on" but perhaps times have changed.


And the benefits of making travel to Europe, business or otherwise, more difficult are?

Go on, I’ve got to hear this.


I'm generally in favour of open borders (at least idealistically speaking) but there are advantages to limiting or making travel more difficult in Europe:

A boost for UK tourism as people will be more likely to holiday at home
A boost for UK manufacturing as buying from abroad is more expensive
A boost for UK wages as the supply of labour reduces, and demand increases (admittedly, bad for business owners - but good for workers)
Less strain on infrastructure

I don't know if you were genuinely curious - but I hope that offers some insight.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 14 May 2019, 2:21 pm

MIG Eater is spot on..

Having greater control of your borders has pros and cons. The debate is well troden and obviously, from a business perspective, its a wonderful thing not to have any paperwork and short or no queues (I know a professional violinist who works in Europe very oftern and voted to remain purely on this topic) but better security is a benefit. We forget that we are in a tiny minority on a global scale and most countries do prefer to have tighter controls on who comes in and out of their country. They clearly experience the advantages on a daily basis, every time they prevent someone unwanted coming in (sorry if this sounds like a basic argument but Dan did ask. I assume most people including informed/thoughtful remainers realise this.)

Again, the theme continues of "all or nothing" where as, in reality, there are pros and there are cons. I'm happy to admit that. But my point still stands that the cons are being exagerated hugely ("oh, the terror!") and pros are ignored ("name one benefit").

It also works the other way. Imagine a leaver saying that they were is a state of terror due to our open borders with Europe. That would equally be as absurd and add nothing to the argument other than hyperbole and emotion.

AND even if there are zero advantages, is that, in itself, a justification for being in a state of terror? Perhaps it is, perhaps I'm just too laid back.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby rockfordstone on Tue 14 May 2019, 3:05 pm

Airshowhammer wrote:Have to laugh. Imagine being part of an airshow forum and your most active topic is......Brexit.

it beats looking at the air show sections and seeing repeat offenders banging on about how bad "insert air show here" is this year i suppose
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby jingernut on Tue 14 May 2019, 3:28 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:And the benefits of making travel to Europe, business or otherwise, more difficult are?


Out of interest how much more difficult is it going to be? A bit of paperwork and a queue?

I don't travel abroad (haven't in probably 15 years and don't currently have a passport) so not sure how easy or hard it is at the moment.

Genuinely interested to know what the difficulties are going to be .... or is it an unknown and are people just guessing at what "might" happen?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby effects on Wed 15 May 2019, 12:20 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Thanks CJS,

to try to put it another way, I don't have the option of applying for an Irish passport and will still be travelling to Europe on business. It never entered my head to be terrified at the possibility of free travel ending. Perhaps I'm just pure stupid (a gift for you there Dan), what have I missed that Dan and other terrified business travellers haven't? why should I and other business travellers in my position be terrified?

It's a fair question IMHO. Happy to become terrified if someone can point me toward the justification. I was always under the impression that panic and terror were not part of the British culture/make-up. I always thought it was "stiff upper lip", "keep calm and carry one" and "put the kettle on" but perhaps times have changed.


And the benefits of making travel to Europe, business or otherwise, more difficult are?

Go on, I’ve got to hear this.

More difficult, hardly terrifying...DOH!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Wed 15 May 2019, 1:23 am

MiG_Eater wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Thanks CJS,

to try to put it another way, I don't have the option of applying for an Irish passport and will still be travelling to Europe on business. It never entered my head to be terrified at the possibility of free travel ending. Perhaps I'm just pure stupid (a gift for you there Dan), what have I missed that Dan and other terrified business travellers haven't? why should I and other business travellers in my position be terrified?

It's a fair question IMHO. Happy to become terrified if someone can point me toward the justification. I was always under the impression that panic and terror were not part of the British culture/make-up. I always thought it was "stiff upper lip", "keep calm and carry one" and "put the kettle on" but perhaps times have changed.


And the benefits of making travel to Europe, business or otherwise, more difficult are?

Go on, I’ve got to hear this.


I'm generally in favour of open borders (at least idealistically speaking) but there are advantages to limiting or making travel more difficult in Europe:

A boost for UK tourism as people will be more likely to holiday at home
A boost for UK manufacturing as buying from abroad is more expensive
A boost for UK wages as the supply of labour reduces, and demand increases (admittedly, bad for business owners - but good for workers)
Less strain on infrastructure

I don't know if you were genuinely curious - but I hope that offers some insight.


Your third point though is also a negative... as wages rise due to lack of worker supply - so do prices - resulting in increased inflation, increases in the cost of living and therefore those wage increases for that reason are immediately cancelled out. Due to the increased cost of living, people then go on less holidays and, thanks to the increased difficulty in trading with us internationally - our goods become too expensive compared to others and the overall market suffers as a result.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Airshowhammer on Wed 15 May 2019, 5:16 am

rockfordstone wrote:
Airshowhammer wrote:Have to laugh. Imagine being part of an airshow forum and your most active topic is......Brexit.

it beats looking at the air show sections and seeing repeat offenders banging on about how bad "insert air show here" is this year i suppose


Exactly what this forum was design for. To entitle people to their opinion and thoughts on upcoming shows/ reviews of shows. Yeah certainly beats it :dizzy:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 15 May 2019, 7:42 am

pbeardmore wrote:...better security is a benefit. We forget that we are in a tiny minority on a global scale and most countries do prefer to have tighter controls on who comes in and out of their country. They clearly experience the advantages on a daily basis, every time they prevent someone unwanted coming in...


Has there ever been a time where being in the EU has prevented the U.K. from rejecting someone from entering our country on the basis of security concerns? And has there ever been a security threat/incident because of it?

The only claim I remember is Farage talking about “5,000 jihadis” in Europe, which has been proven to be demonstrably false.

You’re right, there are pros and cons, I’m sure. I don’t doubt that through the struggle of Brexit, there may be some areas of opportunity, but if is for those who champion Brexit to convince us it is a positive thing, and no one has been able to. There hasn’t been a positive Brexit story for, what, eighteen months?

The cons have been articulated time and again. Even the most pro-Brexiteer person here can’t reduce the cons further than “extra paperwork and more of a queue” (paraphrasing).

So what tangible benefit are we getting in return? What benefit do I get that outweighs the con?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Wed 15 May 2019, 8:08 am

MiG_Eater wrote:
I'm generally in favour of open borders (at least idealistically speaking) but there are advantages to limiting or making travel more difficult in Europe:

A boost for UK tourism as people will be more likely to holiday at home
A boost for UK manufacturing as buying from abroad is more expensive
A boost for UK wages as the supply of labour reduces, and demand increases (admittedly, bad for business owners - but good for workers)
Less strain on infrastructure

I don't know if you were genuinely curious - but I hope that offers some insight.


A decent three points Tbf, however,

There is a rise of “staycationers”, though this was also happening pre-Brexit, but this is a fair point. But, personally speaking, I prefer to holiday abroad, and experiencing new cultures and seeing wonderful things and different ways of life and languages and history and food. And even if this is a positive, I don’t want to be forced to go on a U.K. vacation rather than abroad in the EU by making the latter more difficult. I’d rather have the choice. The “boost” might be great to dying seaside towns, but does it really assist much of the rest of the country?

I’m not sure the manufacturing thing works if you take it a step further. Companies that would fall into this category have built their businesses on European supply chains and factories. What if a manufacturer relies on goods from the EU because there is no specific factory in the U.K.? And even if there was, there must be a reason the U.K. factory isn’t used in preference to the EU one. That reason is likely cost, so even if there’s a boost for manufacturing, it will cost more, which will either eat into that “boost”, and/or be passed on to consumers.

As you say, a boost for wages is bad for businesses. Those businesses that can only succeed by employing those who work for the cheapest salary might not be able to afford British workers (to say nothing of the fact that British workers are often sub-par at these jobs). There is no boost for employment if said employer goes under because British workers either demand more money, or refuse to work the hours necessary. There’s already plenty of evidence of EU workers leaving and these employers, from vegetable pickers to the NHS are suffering from the shortfall.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 15 May 2019, 9:08 am

Fair points Tommy, but firstly on the tourism point: believe me - there is much, much more to see in the UK than just seaside towns. I have a holiday in the UK every year (quite often my main 'big' holiday is in the UK) and I don't feel short changed at all. There is such rich history and culture even in England that it warrants really thorough exploration.

As for the business point - people have been arguing about this for years, and they'll continue to do so, but: most left leaning people seem to argue that the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger than ever, and I believe this is because an overabundance of labour has allowed wages to stagnate for years, with the resultant profits funnelled right to the top of the businesses. The idea that British people won't do certain jobs seems completely at odds with what I see day-to-day. I really do believe it comes down to wages - but I guess there is no way to prove it either way!

With regard to supply chains, it is another point where I believe being in the EU has so damaged our competitiveness in manufacturing that it would be difficult for businesses to adapt, but ultimately with some government support businesses could be helped in developing UK based supply chains which, while more expensive, would force companies to pay fair wages.

Like I said - I can't prove any of this, they're judgements i've made, and they may be wrong - but ultimately I was posting a reply to DanO just to try and impress on him that there is actually more than one side to the argument. My points may be wrong, but hopefully they warrant more than a cry of 'moron!' in response.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Wed 15 May 2019, 12:01 pm

Tommy wrote:You’re right, there are pros and cons, I’m sure. I don’t doubt that through the struggle of Brexit, there may be some areas of opportunity, but if is for those who champion Brexit to convince us it is a positive thing, and no one has been able to. There hasn’t been a positive Brexit story for, what, eighteen months?

The cons have been articulated time and again. Even the most pro-Brexiteer person here can’t reduce the cons further than “extra paperwork and more of a queue” (paraphrasing).

So what tangible benefit are we getting in return? What benefit do I get that outweighs the con?


I haven't posted in this debate for a while because I'm utterly fed up with the whole debacle that is Brexit and our incompetent and thick headed politicians to do anything about it, however I will add this point which is the main reason I wanted to leave in 2016.

Too much is made as to what the future holds for the UK when we leave and what the benefits and negatives are. What hardly ever gets a mention (and I don't really understand why) is what would the future be were we to remain?

Personally I think the EU now is as good as it is ever going to be. I cannot see anything that can convince me that the eastern European and southern Mediterranean countries are going to be anything but a continual drain and will forever be nett benefactors instead of contributors. I appreciate that there is a geo-political strategic angle to this in the case of the former soviet bloc countries but will that always be the case? What happens if relations improve with Russia over a sustained period - do we just kick them out? Or do we continue to subsidise them either through bail outs or taking on their excess in labour?

Unemployment figures for the under 25's in Spain, a modern developed country are eye watering and nobody has any solution that I have heard that will bring this to an end, nobody is claiming that this is only temporary and that there is a great EU led solution waiting around the corner are they? Happy to be corrected if I've missed it.

Ok, so we get lots of cheap (and sometimes highly skilled) labour to draw from which means our strawberries are cheaper and there is someone to tuck Grandma in at night at the nursing home (anyone noticed residential care costs coming down with the increase in cheap European labour by the way?).

There is a negative to that, and it's been mentioned in a couple of posts recently, it keeps wages down. Good for profit margins, not great for UK residents who want to try and get ahead in the world, not that great for the revenue and therefore continued austerity. We have more people in work than ever before but wages are only now (after the decision to leave the EU) starting to rise albeit slowly. Inflation isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as it is managed properly and the exchequer uses is it to our collective advantage in putting the increase in taxes back into public services.

The latest trade deals brokered by the EU are heavily weighted towards manufacturing, something the French and Germans are particularly concerned about and not much focus has been placed on the service industries where we as a nation are strong. They also do very little for the countries in the EU who have very little to offer the world apart from their people.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Wed 15 May 2019, 1:07 pm

Let’s take a theoretical example.

A large U.K. company makes something and buys lots of bits from a small French company to make it.

Now the simplest and least traumatic path is that we stay in the EU and nothing changes. There isn’t a problem - well there is, we kind of had a referendum and Leaving the EU won it.

So based on the fact that the referendum happened, Leave won, the country was promised the result would be upheld, the GE fought on honouring the vote and Artcle 50 invoked.

That doesn’t fix “the we are leaving bit”.

So back to the original problem, based on us leaving and not remaining what are the likely outcomes.

1. The EU and U.K. come to a deal that means these goods from France do have too much extra, if any, duty applied to them and the finished goods can flow into the EU ( if they ever did ).

2. The factory in the U.K. closes and moves to France. Not really practical as it’s a large U.K. company.

3. Someone in the U.K. sets up a small factory to make the stuff needed and the U.K. company buys from them.

4. The two companies get together and decide that their respective countries are idiots and both companies decide to split the additional costs between them so they both don’t go out of business.

5. We don’t leave and ignore the result of the referendum that was promised to be upheld.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Wed 15 May 2019, 2:07 pm

ericbee123 wrote:Now the simplest and least traumatic path is that we stay in the EU and nothing changes. There isn’t a problem - well there is, we kind of had a referendum and Leaving the EU won it.

So based on the fact that the referendum happened, Leave won, the country was promised the result would be upheld, the GE fought on honouring the vote and Artcle 50 invoked.

.


If we stay just learn to get over it, that's what I have to do as I was promised never to vote again on leaving Europe. How about the government honour that agreement first, as it came before this referendum.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 15 May 2019, 2:23 pm

No one sane wants us to leave Europe. 17.5 million people voted for us to leave the EU which didn't exist until 1993.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Thu 16 May 2019, 9:00 am

In answer to those articles:

1) I don't know anyone that wants the uncertainty to continue. Leaving the EU does not necessarily create uncertainty, but the constant delays do.

2) The Honda closure, in my understanding, was actually a result of a trade deal being struck with Japan and thus making it more practical for Japan to build the cars domestically and import them tariff free. Leaving the EU gives an incentive for foreign companies to manufacture in the UK and also could provide a boost to home-grown manufacturers.
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