In grumpy old man mode!

[Dragon Rapide]

Yes, your last sentence should be in banners of bold letters at the entrances to the offices of all those morons who try to change the way we socially interact in the name of PC!!

[nigelblake]

Yes indeed Hatstand, I agree wholeheartedly. We need more people with that sort of common sense making decicions. However I daresay the PC brigade would take offence at 'Common sense' on the grounds it could offend those with more or less sense than is deemed common!

[AlexC]

This is the same chap who thinks I shouldn't use the word "wife" when referring to the lady I married, the love of my life - because I might offend gay people. I am supposed to say "partner" or somesuch instead. Ironically, *I* am offended at the idea of calling her my "partner" since to me, that sounds like what you'd use for a short-term, informal or business relationship... instead of the permanent relationship of love and dedication that it actually is. BAH.

I'm with you all the way on that, but I suppose the world has changed around us with so many people not bothering to get married and everything that flows from that. They will say a) it's so expensive, and b) it's just a piece of paper. Well, getting married doesn't have to be expensive, (as I proved!) and if it's 'just a piece of paper' why not just get it. I think that what underlies the reluctance to get married nowadays is that people don't expect it to last very long which is sad. Very different for my parents generation, they expected a lifelong marrage, and that's what they had in spite of the to be expected 'ups and downs'. I don't know about offending gay people by using the term 'wife' however, because I understand that some of them use the term 'wife' to describe their 'partner' whether they are male or female!

[DerekF]

You tend to find though that many of these pronouncements from the "PC brigade" are just made up. Made up so that the anti-PC brigade can get all steamed up about nothing. Look at the "winterval" or Baa baa white sheep" story episode to see what I mean.


Having said that, what is actually wrong with changing a saying or phrase if it really does cause offence? Is being polite and respectful such a problem?

[rjlaker]

Someone in a brainstorm at work once reffered to "vegetable management products" as part of his input.

You aren't allowed to use the term "brainstorm" any more! Didn't you Get The memo?

I was going to read it but had to take a raincheck. I've put a pin in it to read later. My office is full of these phrases! ... They're not brainstorms here, they're "marketing huddles"

[phreakf4]

...You tend to find though that many of these pronouncements from the "PC brigade" are just made up. Made up so that the anti-PC brigade can get all steamed up about nothing. Look at the "winterval" or Baa baa white sheep" story episode to see what I mean....

Indeed. I do not often agree with your point of view, but in this case you are absolutely correct. The "straight banana" episode was another example of, in this case "an EU directive" which never existed.

On another aspect of the same thread; is it not interesting that almost all of this "management-speak" originates from offices rather than shop-floor environments? One is led to wonder whether much of it is a thinly-veiled attempt to ascribe greater importance to the positions, and the work associated with said positions, than they actually warrant.

Othe examples are "Human Resources Department" rather than "Personnel" and "Marketing" rather than "Sales", and my personal bete noir "Personal Financial Advisor", meaning "Insurance Salesperson" (note the PC use of "person" )

[Dragon Rapide]

You tend to find though that many of these pronouncements from the "PC brigade" are just made up. Made up so that the anti-PC brigade can get all steamed up about nothing. Look at the "winterval" or Baa baa white sheep" story episode to see what I mean.


Having said that, what is actually wrong with changing a saying or phrase if it really does cause offence? Is being polite and respectful such a problem?

If the offence is genuine and widespread then, yes, there is a case for consideration, but not if it is of a small minority. But as the corollary to your first point much perceived offence seems to be taken, on behalf of those deemed to be recipients of the offence, by the "PC" brigade, when in reality the majority of the recipients actually could not care less. Correct me if I am wrong but I think Birmingham did introduce the ghastly term "winterval" until suitably mocked for it.

[stratocaster]

What I tend to do is whenever addressing some mail to "HR" department I adress it to Personnel department,and so do the same with other things.It still manages to get there in the end!

[DerekF]

Birmingham did indeed use the term winterval. It was used for a couple of years to cover many different religious and secular activities. It did not replace Christmas as the Daily Mail would have you believe and it proves my point exactly.

[Dragon Rapide]

But why use it at all? There is a traditional winter holiday in the UK covering the Christmas and New Year period and celebrated by the majority of UK residents. If a minority do not wish to celebrate it then that is their prerogative but I cannot see any reason for a local authority to take upon itself a secondary meaningless phrase to describe the period.

[DerekF]

I just read it as word to cover all holidays at that time of year. Rather like using "festive" season or the "holiday" season. It covers all possible holidays and festivals at that time of year. Nobody was offended or upset - it was a word used in promotional leaflet. Didn't see anything wrong with it then and still don't but those that have a season pass for the outrage bus clearly found it horrifying that Christmas had been stolen by PC correctness when that wasn't the case at all.

[phreakf4]

....If the offence is genuine and widespread then, yes, there is a case for consideration, but not if it is of a small minority........

I do hope I have misunderstood this and that it is not your intention to say that abusing those with Downs Syndrome, for example, is acceptable because it only causes offence to a minority........

[Dragon Rapide]

I don't think anyone was offended or upset just thought it a pointless and unnecessarily contrived word. It certainly produced a good deal of "interest" at the time! Seasonal passes for the outrage bus...mmmm - should I infer that outrage at the perceived idiocies, wasted expenditures and meaningless gestures in the mistaken name of making sure not a single citizen is offended is unacceptable?

[AlexC]

Watching the programme the other night about booze-fuelled revellers in Colchester on C4 reminded me how much I hate the universal use of foul language nowadays on the streets and just about everywhere else. You just can't get away from it. It would be fair enough to say that I didn't have to watch the programme about Colchester. I won't watch the rest of the series.

[aceyone]

Have to agree with AlexC about foul language,it's very difficult to escape it nowadays,what irritates me is when it seems programme makers just put it in for shock value or so it appears ! Also on those songs you occasionally hear on the radio and they " beep " the offending word out , can't the songwriter write lyrics without resorting to swear words ?

[Dragon Rapide]

I loathe it and it raises the perennial question - are the users aping their TV heroes or is TV aping real life? Either way it is depressing and offensive.

[phreakf4]

....can't the songwriter write lyrics without resorting to swear words ?....

They undoubtedly could, but that would make the track less "cool" (or whatever the current "street" equivalent term may be).

I would point out that I am regarded as slightly odd amongst my friends and aquaintances, not because I am an aviation enthusiast, or because I build and fly radio-controlled model aircraft, but because I very rarely swear at all. It's just the way I was "brung up". In essence, I think it is often the parents who are to blame and if they don't show their children by example that swearing is both unnecessary and unpleasant (and the children are not then "corrupted" at school by others who have not been so well nurtured) then the resulting adult is much less likely to use such language.

On the other hand, this is nothing new, Shakespeare (in the original) included plenty of "coarse language" in his works, as did Chaucer and other great literary figures, it was only the Victorians who "sanitised" much of this work (Google "Bowdlerise" to understand the details).

Also, having worked in a factory/shop floor environment for over 40 years, I am well aware that there are many individuals, (often though not exclusively of relatively low intellect, education and vocabulary), whose every sentence is littered with, for example the "F-word". That word seems to be almost the only adjective in said limited vocabulary. So TV and music seem to be imitating life rather than the other way round

There are also a number of "Luvvies" who seem to think that the use of such language helps them to foster the illusion that they are "just one of the lads". A prime example is Brian Blessed, who is notorious for his use of such language. I have a friend who lived next door to Mr. Blessed for a while, and apparently that "booming" voice could be heard uttering profanities at all times of the day and night.

[DanO1978]

I have a friend who lived next door to Mr. Blessed for a while, and apparently that "booming" voice could be heard uttering profanities at all times of the day and night.

Just imagine that!

6am alarm call - Brian Blessed shouting **** over and over again.

Generally it's those of a low intellect who resort to swearing, simply because they don't have the vocabulary to use a better word. Nothing sounds worse than someone who is unable to construct a sentence without "effing and jeffing" every other word.

That said, a well-chosen and well-timed swear word can be superbly entertaining, in the right place and company.

[Dragon Rapide]

I wholly agree with your last sentence - less is best!

[AlexC]

That said, a well-chosen and well-timed swear word can be superbly entertaining, in the right place and company.

The only time that I would probably use the 'f' word would be after I'd hit my thumb with a hammer or after some similar occurance, ie in the proper contex!

In the Colchester programme the other night, a particularly loathsome individual said to a complete stranger 'I've got your name tattooed on my a***', and then proceeded to drop his trousers to reveal 'your name' tattooed on his backside. He thought that was hilarous.

[nigelblake]

Personally I am not offended by swearing, as far as I am concerned they are only ‘words’ that in the main were common “Anglo Saxon” parlance until the Victorian era when they were frowned upon .
As DanO1978 says well timed swear words sparingly delivered with panache can add emphasis by shock value alone, the overuse of swearing has diluted that!
I used to work with a chap with Tourette’s syndrome, way before it was a commonly know disorder, he was both a really nice guy and “the poet laureate of profanities” he used to keep us all laughing, it was the reaction from those unaware of his condition that was really amusing! Incredibly once you got used to it you didn’t hardly notice, almost as if you naturally filtered it out.

[capercaillie]

I have a friend who lived next door to Mr. Blessed for a while, and apparently that "booming" voice could be heard uttering profanities at all times of the day and night.

Just imagine that!

6am alarm call - Brian Blessed shouting **** over and over again.

****, Gordon's ****ing alive!

[Dave56]

'Will you learn me how to do that ?' instead of 'Will you teach..' It drives me up the wall. I also gnash and wail at the wrong use of apostrophies. Also the idiocy of the abbreviation 'w.w.w.' It's actually six syllables longer than what it's supposed to abbreviate...........

[Hatstand]

My award for the best "I spell it how I hear it" this week, goes to the person who wrote "per say" instead of "per se" in a forum message.

I will deliver the reward for this, as soon as I finish sharpening my machete.

[Hatstand]

Oh but wait, three more contenders have come to my attention:
"fo pa" (faux pas), "on mass" (en masse) and "peak" (pique).

I just had to laugh at "fo pa", it's so bad it's funny.