How wrong can you be....?

[Dragon Rapide]

Quality of and commitment to work, maybe.......I deal with a range of companies all over the country and employers, with many exceptions, of course, frequently bemoan the quality and especially the attitude to work of some UK employees.

[Wes_Howes]

True but for every person not willing to work in the UK there is at least one other who is willing to do any kind of work. I'd rather be doing 20 hours a week at minimum wage than sitting in the queue at the DHSS. So when I hear that foreign nationals are being brought in to fill jobs, it gets my blood boiling!

[Dragon Rapide]

But that's the problem - for every one of you there are perhaps 2 or 3 or more who would rather be on the DHSS. Hence the current proposed legislation about which everyone is arguing.

[RRconway]

True but for every person not willing to work in the UK there is at least one other who is willing to do any kind of work. I'd rather be doing 20 hours a week at minimum wage than sitting in the queue at the DHSS. So when I hear that foreign nationals are being brought in to fill jobs, it gets my blood boiling!

You have the same attitude as me Wes, you would rather be the master of your own destiny than sit around trying to blame every other buggar for your predicament, and thats to your credit.
Unfortunately, not only are there 2 or 3 times as many people who are prepared to accept handouts but there are also those who if they secure a job will be late, lazy and generally not keen to make the best of it, hence the next time the supermarkets recruit they remember the trouble they had with UK employees and look elsewhere for nationalities who truly appreciate the oppurtunity.

Cheers,
Jeff.

[Dragon Rapide]

Yup - that just about says it all......people have been educated into the "state provides all" mentality where individual responsibility for ones life and ones destiny has been emasculated.

[DanO1978]

Yup - that just about says it all......people have been educated into the "state provides all" mentality where individual responsibility for ones life and ones destiny has been emasculated.

[AlexC]

The 'something for nothing' culture is so ingrained in this country now that it's difficult to see how any government will be able to rein it in now. There was the first in a new series on the protection of vulnerable children from their own parents on BBC2 last night. I found it hard enough dealing with some of our scumbag tenants here, but these social workers are saints. I certainly could never have done their job, especially the ones right on 'the front line'. Whatever they are paying them it's not enough.

[Dragon Rapide]

The 'something for nothing' culture is so ingrained in this country now that it's difficult to see how any government will be able to rein it in now. There was the first in a new series on the protection of vulnerable children from their own parents on BBC2 last night. I found it hard enough dealing with some of our scumbag tenants here, but these social workers are saints. I certainly could never have done their job, whatever they are paying them it's not enough.

Actually they could and they should, but it would take steely determnination and guts and inevitable unpopularity with the civil servants, the media and some of the electorate. I think we can all name the last Prime Minister who cared little for popularity as long as what was seen as necessary was done.

[DanO1978]

The something-for-nothing culture is almost impossible for a Conservative government to break now. Labour allowed the benefits lifestyle underclass to flourish, knowing full well that they'd created a class of Labour loyalists who'd never bite the hand that fed them. Likewise, build up a massive, unsustainable public sector - guaranteed Labour voters.

Any right wing government that tries to clamp down on these people will only get booted out of office, as the lazy underclass waddle to the polling station to vote for the party that gave them their bread and circuses free of charge.

Blair and Brown knew exactly what they were doing. Social engineering. Pure and simple.

This country needs a return to Thatcherite values.

[Dragon Rapide]

A Prime Minister with the balls to do it would do it, even at the risk of being booted out of office. But might also be respected by the large rump of the electorate who gain nothing from the Blair/Brown legacy.

[DerekF]

This country needs a return to Thatcherite values.

Good idea. Unemployment from 1million in 1979 to 3million in 3 years. What effect does that have? It creates a society reliant on benefits. Funny old thing. All for Thatcher's misguided dogma.

Thatcherite values? Even Cameron and his mate Gideon know that's a loser.

[stratocaster]

Both sets of politics have screwed up,but I did find Labours' underhanded social engineering bitterly foul and that did anger me and a fair majority of others.

[DanO1978]

This country needs a return to Thatcherite values.

Good idea. Unemployment from 1million in 1979 to 3million in 3 years. What effect does that have? It creates a society reliant on benefits. Funny old thing. All for Thatcher's misguided dogma.

Thatcherite values? Even Cameron and his mate Gideon know that's a loser.

You don't deny the social engineering though?

[tache3]

You don't deny the social engineering though?

Rather like using the poll tax to wipe people off the electroral roll?

[Dragon Rapide]

Please explain....

[DerekF]

You don't deny the social engineering though?

You yourself said we should return to Thatcher's values. How would that be achieved except by "social engineering"? Anything changes the way people think or act is attributed to social engineering one way or another. The alternative is to let people do what they want and make their own choices and that can't happen either can it.
Social engineering? All governments do it. It is what politics is all about but I don't believe for one second that the last government deliberately made people benefit dependent in order to gerrymander.

[tache3]

Please explain....

It will not have escaped the Conservative governments notice that a substantial and punitive increase in household taxation, particularly based on number of persons living at a property rather than its rateable value, would have hit multiple occupation households and those with children over 18 living at home the hardest. These are generally working class and low income households, traditional Labour voters in other words. With the threat of prosecution and imprisonment for non payment, it is obvious that many who were unable to to pay would avoid eligibility for the tax by not being listed as resident at the address. No electoral role, no vote.

There you have the crux of the problem of the 'Community Charge' for many people. Either pay an unaffordable amount of money, or you don't get a vote.

[Dragon Rapide]

I don't suppose you have any statistics to support the statement. Taxing individuals rather than their homes has always seemed to me to be by far the fairest method of local taxation. In any case students and the unemployed only paid 20% of the Community Charge. The principle was right but the practice failed simply because the detail was ill-thought through and the collection criteria ineffective.

[tache3]

I don't suppose you have any statistics to support the statement

I don't unfortunately, its all anecdotal. I'd be interested in seeing some as well though, if anyone knows where to look.

detail was ill-thought through

I'll agree with you there.

the collection criteria ineffective

A bigger problem was simply the number of people who refused to pay making the task of collecting from, prosecuting or jailing non payers impossible. A BBC survey in 1990 reported that one in five persons hadn't paid-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 495911.stm

[Dragon Rapide]

Between 1993 and 2010 unpaid council tax amounted to £2.5 billion - the following being the worst urban areas in 2009/10:

Councils with most uncollected council tax in 2009-10
Glasgow: £17.0m
Birmingham: £14.7m
Liverpool: £12.8m
Edinburgh: £11.3m
Lambeth: £8.9m
Source: Local authorities' responses to FoI request

So even without Community Charge people still don't pay........

[tache3]

Between 1993 and 2010 unpaid council tax amounted to £2.5 billion - the following being the worst urban areas in 2009/10:

Councils with most uncollected council tax in 2009-10
Glasgow: £17.0m
Birmingham: £14.7m
Liverpool: £12.8m
Edinburgh: £11.3m
Lambeth: £8.9m
Source: Local authorities' responses to FoI request

So even without Community Charge people still don't pay........

And what proportion of the expected/billed amount is that?

[Dragon Rapide]

Don't know - will check it, but my point is that whatever the tax people will try to avoid it, because some will not be able to pay and some will hope to get away without paying.

[tache3]

Don't know - will check it, but my point is that whatever the tax people will try to avoid it, because some will not be able to pay and some will hope to get away without paying.

I quite agree, and that goes for corporations, businessmen, politicians, sportmen, celebrities and so on as well as the little fella.

[Dragon Rapide]

Absolutely, but interestingly, where the tax levels are generally perceived to be fair, the incidence of abuse is less. I have always thought the idea of flat taxes should be closely examined ( anathema to G.Brown and HMRC, of course) and our current Chancellor was talking about it, in opposition.

[Dustyman73]

DanO, I am agreeing with a lot that you are saying. However, I find it odd that in times past, you have pronounced your ringing endorsement of a certain US President who by and large maintained the same statist values you proclaim to loathe, and pronounced your utmost disdain for a President that had much more in common with Thatcher than, say, Tony Blair. Just a little curious about the inconsistency.