Should we stay or should we go now?

Should the UK leave the EU

Yes
145
56%
No
114
44%
 
Total votes : 259

Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby boff180 on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 4:39 pm

23rd June is crunch day for the UK.

One decision will cripple our relationship with the USA (their own admission), make us a much smaller player in the world and according to all financial analysis will destroy our economy and plunge us into a trade war. But on the other hand we will make our own rules.

The other decision means we carry on as normal allowing us to moan a bit when we like although according to some, being held back.

The question is, which decision will YOU make?
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby 138EAW on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 5:04 pm

boff180 wrote:12th June is crunch day for the UK.



Can't guess which way your voting then Andy :wink: :grin: I think you've got the wrong date :grin: Unless you have a your own date for the referendum, or is it a ploy by Cameron and the stay in camp to tell the others the wrong date so only one side votes. :grin:
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 5:04 pm

The other question would be......how many of those who vote have had their opinion changed by the concessions Cameron has won ?
And I wonder how many other EU Countries have been waiting to see what concessions the UK got before trying the same thing themselves ( as opposed to their usual policy of ignoring any EU directives they don't agree with ) ?
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby boff180 on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 5:31 pm

138EAW wrote:
boff180 wrote:12th June is crunch day for the UK.



Can't guess which way your voting then Andy :wink: :grin: I think you've got the wrong date :grin: Unless you have a your own date for the referendum, or is it a ploy by Cameron and the stay in camp to tell the others the wrong date so only one side votes. :grin:

lol typo
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby john001 on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 5:59 pm

They all negotiate in the wrong way should be - send the child benefit back to Poland : Mig 29 at RIAT every year and so on... the Greeks have got the idea already..
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Pringles on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 6:35 pm

Well seeing as the push to change the age for eligibility to vote to 16 never materialised this is the closest I'll get.

It's a no from me :biggrin:
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby boff180 on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 6:47 pm

Pringles wrote:Well seeing as the push to change the age for eligibility to vote to 16 never materialised this is the closest I'll get.

It's a no from me :biggrin:


IMHO as the implications of this vote are so long term and fundamental, the same rules that applied to the Scottish vote should apply here and 16yo's should get a say.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Tommy on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 6:57 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:The other question would be......how many of those who vote have had their opinion changed by the concessions Cameron has won?


No, very true, but on the flip-side, I've yet to see a clearly-made credible argument backed-up with unambiguous evidence that the UK is better off out of the EU, either... Six of one, etc...
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Pringles on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 7:11 pm

boff180 wrote:
Pringles wrote:Well seeing as the push to change the age for eligibility to vote to 16 never materialised this is the closest I'll get.

It's a no from me :biggrin:


IMHO as the implications of this vote are so long term and fundamental, the same rules that applied to the Scottish vote should apply here and 16yo's should get a say.

Exactly, as a politically minded 16 year old I'd love the opportunity to have my say on our country's future. I understand the implications of the vote and I've made my mind up, having read up on both sides or the argument. Still, it's not like our opinions matter! :biggrin:
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:17 am

I used to be for staying in. But one thing I have noticed is the "in" campaign are using fear as their main weapon supported by lies and untruths. There was a debate on the radio this evening and I never thought I would be on the side of Jacob Reese-Mog but he had a copy of the treaty in front of him and was having to correct in real time the lies being told by the MP representing the In vote.

Cameron is already using security as leverage but NATO is our security foundation, the EU is about trade, not security. The deal brought back by our PM is a red herring IMHO and there is nothing in it worth having and the effort he made to get the deal shows how little influence and power we have within Europe.

I will be voting Out unless I hear some damn good arguments backed up by fact rather than speculation.

Lastly, Gove's recent press release is very powerful IMHO and would urge everyone to read and consider it:

"As a minister I’ve seen hundreds of new EU rules cross my desk, none of which were requested by the UK Parliament, none of which I or any other British politician could alter in any way and none of which made us freer, richer or fairer.

It is hard to overstate the degree to which the EU is a constraint on ministers' ability to do the things they were elected to do, or to use their judgment about the right course of action for the people of this country. I have long had concerns about our membership of the EU but the experience of Government has only deepened my conviction that we need change. "
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby DerekF on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:34 am

Anyone who thinks that the EU is responsible for the amount of legislation in the UK needs to look again. As part of my job I have to deal with legislation brought about by the MAA. That is UK legislation and nothing to do with the EU. We are very capable in the EU of generating lots of red tape all of our very own. What Gove failed to mention of course is how much of the EU legislation is actually worthwhile. Anything that protects workers, make our environment safer and cleaner, makes Europe-wide laws homogenized - these are good things surely?

The reason for the accusation of scaremongering is that it is true. The UK outside the EU is a scary place. The EU isn't perfect but it is better than the alternative - an economic backwater ignored by the US and the rest of the EU.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:38 am

This is going to be a long debate, the claim about us becoming an economic back water - any facts to support that claim?

"Ignored" is exactly the type of claim that is made by the In vote but is clearly untrue. There maybe legitimate points to make re impacting on our economy but any legit argument is undermined by completely (and needlessly) overstating the case (in order to create more fear?). The UK will clearly not be ignored.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby DerekF on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:54 am

pbeardmore wrote: The UK will clearly not be ignored.


Any facts to back that up?

I have yet to see any compelling arguments for leaving the EU. Surely it is better to stay in and attempt to make the EU a better place rather just abandon it altogether. It's hard to see how leaving one of the biggest trading blocs in the world is going to benefit the UK.
The future of the world is in further integration and cooperation - not in getting bogged down in nationalism and ideological differences - that isn't working too well throughout the world at the moment.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby boff180 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 1:08 am

pbeardmore wrote:This is going to be a long debate, the claim about us becoming an economic back water - any facts to support that claim?

"Ignored" is exactly the type of claim that is made by the In vote but is clearly untrue. There maybe legitimate points to make re impacting on our economy but any legit argument is undermined by completely (and needlessly) overstating the case (in order to create more fear?). The UK will clearly not be ignored.


A quick google results in a number of independent financial think tanks/economic research institutes both British of international that say the same thing. An exit will result in a contraction of our economy on a massive scale, prices for goods will increase, jobs will be lost. The scale of this "massive" varies, some liken it to the 2008 crash, others that 2008 is nothing compared to what will happen.

On the other hand, there is nothing whatsoever to support claims by the Out team that we can dictate the terms of our future trading with the EU, say on the same terms as Canada or Norway if we left. I would say quite the opposite, if we left the future trading will be on EU terms, not ours.

Derek is right that legislation and public rights wise, outside of the EU will be a very dangerous place for the common man. There will be nothing to stop those in power changing laws to suit their backers, that may sound like scaremongering however the safety net will be pulled from underneath your rights to everything ranging from annual leave entitlement to health care abroad to benefits.

And in the debate, a treaty can often be interpreted to suit, there is nothing to say the Out representative wasn't interpreting to suit his side too. End of the day the treaty is a smoke screen and there are bigger things at stake here.

A Britain outside the EU, with thr potential it gives those in power and what their underlying principals are.. Is a very scary uncertain thought. Neither side can say what the alternative is. I'm not sure I want to remain in the Country if an Out vote happens.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 1:10 am

We will be a nuclear power , in NATO and on the UN security council, member of the WTO, G8, we import over £200 billion from Europe per year, they are going to ignore that market?

common sense says we will not be ignored. To say we will be ignored means that we have nothing to offer the World if we are outside the EU, nothing. I have a higher opinion of what we can do.

"There will be nothing to stop those in power changing laws to suit their backers"
so we have to be in Europe because , without it, the UK is not a democracy and we need Europe to protect us from our own Parliament? We have one of the oldest and best established Parliamentary democracies in the World, how did the "common man" survive before we entered the EU? This is a good example of a complete loss if faith concerning our ability to effectively and fairly run our own affairs.

The minimum wage wage brought in by Labour in 98 via domestic legislation, nothing to do with Europe, you cant pick and choose the good bits from EU legislation and ignore the good domestic law that supports the "common man".
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby boff180 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 9:06 am

pbeardmore wrote:We will be a nuclear power , in NATO and on the UN security council, member of the WTO, G8, we import over £200 billion from Europe per year, they are going to ignore that market?

common sense says we will not be ignored. To say we will be ignored means that we have nothing to offer the World if we are outside the EU, nothing. I have a higher opinion of what we can do.


They definitely won't ignore us but it is naive of the out campaign to assume that we would be able to dictate the terms that we traded with the EU on. In trade comparisons, we will be the little fish in the relationship.

"There will be nothing to stop those in power changing laws to suit their backers"
so we have to be in Europe because , without it, the UK is not a democracy and we need Europe to protect us from our own Parliament? We have one of the oldest and best established Parliamentary democracies in the World, how did the "common man" survive before we entered the EU? This is a good example of a complete loss if faith concerning our ability to effectively and fairly run our own affairs.

The minimum wage wage brought in by Labour in 98 via domestic legislation, nothing to do with Europe, you cant pick and choose the good bits from EU legislation and ignore the good domestic law that supports the "common man".


Yes the UK is a democracy however the political landscape is not what it once was. Whilst parliament is voted for by the people, the party that is in power biggest influence is their biggest backers and that is powerful businesses. There are a number of laws that protect the welfare/status of the British citizen particularly in work which, whilst not created because of the EU, are protected by the EU. Many of these are an inconvenience to powerful business and the stage will be set for them to be changed for their benefit.

Just have to look at what has happened to the Lords in the past few months. They performed their role as the second house against a fairly extreme welfare change (even though the government claimed it was a finance change) and blocked the Governments proposals. The Government have now begun a review into the powers of the Lords to block proposals..... a fundemental proposed change to the UK democracy and one, arguably to make it easier to impose new rules without second party scrutiny.

There's scaremongering happening on both sides too.

This London School of Economics report into the impacts of an EU Exit makes for good reading, I've quoted the summary page below...
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA022.pdf

The European Union (EU) is the UK’s most important trade partner, accounting for
half of all UK exports and imports. UK exports to the EU correspond to almost 15%
of national output (GDP).
 EU membership matters to the UK economy primarily because it leads to lower trade
barriers. This makes goods and services cheaper for UK consumers and allows UK
businesses to export more.
 Leaving the EU (‘Brexit’) would lead to lower trade between the UK and the EU
because of higher tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade. In addition, the UK would
benefit less from future market integration within the EU. The main benefit of leaving
the EU would be a lower net contribution to the EU budget.
 In our analysis of the consequences of Brexit, we consider an ‘optimistic scenario’
with small increases in trade costs between the UK and the EU, and a ‘pessimistic
scenario’ with larger increases. In the optimistic case, Brexit reduces UK income by
1.1% of GDP. In the pessimistic case, UK income falls by 3.1% (£50 billion per year).
 In the long run, reduced trade may lead to slower productivity growth. Factoring in
these effects could easily more than double the costs of Brexit and lead to a loss in the
pessimistic case comparable to the decline in UK GDP during the global financial
crisis of 2008-09.
 Leaving the EU would also affect foreign direct investment, immigration and
economic regulation in the UK. These effects are harder to quantify than changes in
trade, but are likely to lead to further declines in income.
 The EU is currently negotiating major new free trade agreements with the United
States (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and Japan. Using
estimates from previous EU-negotiated free trade agreements, we estimate these trade
deals will lower UK prices by 0.6% and save UK consumers £6.3 billion per year.
With Brexit, these benefits would be lost.
 Staying in the EU may cause political trouble for the major parties; but if the UK
leaves the EU, the economic trouble will be double.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby iainpeden on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 9:24 am

My concern is that there will be a very low turnout of voters which will not be representative of the nation's real beliefs. While democracy is partly about using your vote or not, I do think that it should be compulsary to turn up at the ballot station/use a postal vote even if you spoil the paper.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby TKK 140 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:02 am

boff180 wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:We will be a nuclear power , in NATO and on the UN security council, member of the WTO, G8, we import over £200 billion from Europe per year, they are going to ignore that market?

common sense says we will not be ignored. To say we will be ignored means that we have nothing to offer the World if we are outside the EU, nothing. I have a higher opinion of what we can do.


They definitely won't ignore us but it is naive of the out campaign to assume that we would be able to dictate the terms that we traded with the EU on. In trade comparisons, we will be the little fish in the relationship.

"There will be nothing to stop those in power changing laws to suit their backers"
so we have to be in Europe because , without it, the UK is not a democracy and we need Europe to protect us from our own Parliament? We have one of the oldest and best established Parliamentary democracies in the World, how did the "common man" survive before we entered the EU? This is a good example of a complete loss if faith concerning our ability to effectively and fairly run our own affairs.

The minimum wage wage brought in by Labour in 98 via domestic legislation, nothing to do with Europe, you cant pick and choose the good bits from EU legislation and ignore the good domestic law that supports the "common man".


Yes the UK is a democracy however the political landscape is not what it once was. Whilst parliament is voted for by the people, the party that is in power biggest influence is their biggest backers and that is powerful businesses. There are a number of laws that protect the welfare/status of the British citizen particularly in work which, whilst not created because of the EU, are protected by the EU. Many of these are an inconvenience to powerful business and the stage will be set for them to be changed for their benefit.

Just have to look at what has happened to the Lords in the past few months. They performed their role as the second house against a fairly extreme welfare change (even though the government claimed it was a finance change) and blocked the Governments proposals. The Government have now begun a review into the powers of the Lords to block proposals..... a fundemental proposed change to the UK democracy and one, arguably to make it easier to impose new rules without second party scrutiny.

There's scaremongering happening on both sides too.

This London School of Economics report into the impacts of an EU Exit makes for good reading, I've quoted the summary page below...
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/EA022.pdf

The European Union (EU) is the UK’s most important trade partner, accounting for
half of all UK exports and imports. UK exports to the EU correspond to almost 15%
of national output (GDP).
 EU membership matters to the UK economy primarily because it leads to lower trade
barriers. This makes goods and services cheaper for UK consumers and allows UK
businesses to export more.
 Leaving the EU (‘Brexit’) would lead to lower trade between the UK and the EU
because of higher tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade. In addition, the UK would
benefit less from future market integration within the EU. The main benefit of leaving
the EU would be a lower net contribution to the EU budget.
 In our analysis of the consequences of Brexit, we consider an ‘optimistic scenario’
with small increases in trade costs between the UK and the EU, and a ‘pessimistic
scenario’ with larger increases. In the optimistic case, Brexit reduces UK income by
1.1% of GDP. In the pessimistic case, UK income falls by 3.1% (£50 billion per year).
 In the long run, reduced trade may lead to slower productivity growth. Factoring in
these effects could easily more than double the costs of Brexit and lead to a loss in the
pessimistic case comparable to the decline in UK GDP during the global financial
crisis of 2008-09.
 Leaving the EU would also affect foreign direct investment, immigration and
economic regulation in the UK. These effects are harder to quantify than changes in
trade, but are likely to lead to further declines in income.
 The EU is currently negotiating major new free trade agreements with the United
States (the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) and Japan. Using
estimates from previous EU-negotiated free trade agreements, we estimate these trade
deals will lower UK prices by 0.6% and save UK consumers £6.3 billion per year.
With Brexit, these benefits would be lost.
 Staying in the EU may cause political trouble for the major parties; but if the UK
leaves the EU, the economic trouble will be double.




Andy,
Don't believe it, 5th biggest economy in the world! Some will have noticed we have been in Economic difficulties for a few years now. "Double economic trouble" really? think not.

On the bright side we could look forward to VAT being abolished as that came into fund the Common Market, apparently! As a reminder its 20% currently.

Academic papers such as the one quoted do need to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Having been unable to vote on membership of the EU rather than the common market we joined, It is now time belatedly for the nation to decide.

We can thrive outside the EU we just need to have confidence, it might well be tough to start, but this is about principle: who governs the UK.
TKK 140

Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby PeteW on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:27 am

The main reason for the UK to stay in a united Europe was explained in Yes Minister 36 years ago:

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?

Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?

Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We 'had' to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. It's just like old times.

Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?

Sir Humphrey: Really, Minister.

Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?

Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.

Hacker: What appalling cynicism.

Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby boff180 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:46 am

RE: VAT, will have to track down the quote but there are no intentions to remove/reduce it either way the vote goes...

Personally id rather believe a study by someone such as LSE rather than anything either sides proponents say. Both sides will be manipulating the truth to prove their point.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby DerekF on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:55 am

If the UK wants to trade with the EU from outside, we will still have to comply with EU regulations, the only difference is that we would not have the option of being involved in forming those regulations. I can only imagine that some think that some faceless Brussels suddenly decides on a new rule and we all must comply. It isn't like that at all. From my experience, proposed legislation is circulated, it can be commented on, amended until it's finally approved. Even I have commented on new EU regulations - I don't recall that being case with Westminster.
If the UK is a strong economy now then surely is because it's part of the EU now.
VAT being removed - I doubt - our chancellor gets too music revenue from it.

Voter turnout is serious issue - low turnout is likely to benefit the OUT campaign.

Perhaps I'm worrying unnecessarily, with the odious Iain Duncan Smith, failed ministers like Gove, prize buffoon Farage and suchlike, the exit caampaign isn't off to a good start. Boris Johnson will be a factor and he will go in whatever direction favours himself. The good of the UK will be of secondary importance to his own ambition.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Pen Pusher on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 10:58 am

boff180 wrote:Personally id rather believe a study by someone such as LSE rather than anything either sides proponents say.

If you pay them enough they'll say what you want.

From Wiki
In August 2015, it was revealed that the university was paid approximately £40,000 for a "glowing report" for Camila Batmanghelidjh's scandal-hit charity, Kids Company. The study was used by Batmanghelidjh to prove that the charity provided good value for money and was well managed. However, the university did not disclose that the study was funded by the charity and claims made by the report have since been discredited.


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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Tommy on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 11:04 am

TKK 140 wrote:Andy,
Don't believe it, 5th biggest economy in the world! Some will have noticed we have been in Economic difficulties for a few years now. "Double economic trouble" really? think not.

On the bright side we could look forward to VAT being abolished as that came into fund the Common Market, apparently! As a reminder its 20% currently.

Academic papers such as the one quoted do need to be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

Having been unable to vote on membership of the EU rather than the common market we joined, It is now time belatedly for the nation to decide.

We can thrive outside the EU we just need to have confidence, it might well be tough to start, but this is about principle: who governs the UK.


Some widely-held points, but some questions I have in response... is it not the case that we're currently the 5th biggest economy in the world (if you say - I haven't researched that yet) because of the trade we've enjoyed by the EU?

Re. VAT - it may have been introduced to assist the common market, but I doubt, very seriously, that our government will reduce VAT because we have left the EU. On the contrary, if we find ourselves suddenly in a more difficult trade position, then surely there would be increases in tax to fill the deficit, subsidies and other trade benefits which cease after leaving the EU?

Andy just produced an academic paper, that is clear evidence on what might happen, more robust than the "I think" position, anyway. You can't just say that they "need to be taken with a large pinch of salt" without reason or evidence to refute said articles, just because they don't align with your views.

Again "we can thrive outside of the EU, we just need to be confident..." - what evidence have you seen of this? We may be "ok" outside of the EU, but I have yet to see any evidence or assessment at all that suggests that we will "thrive" outside of the trading bloc.

The main argument for leaving is one of "principle". The issue some might have is this -

"Principle" only gets you so far. "Principle" doesn't stabilise the economy, progress our trading standing, or create and maintain jobs. The only thing "principle" does is make us feel proud of ourselves in the short run. The argument, therefore, is do we really want to substantially reduce/negatively affect 60% of our export trade on a matter of short-term "principle"?

I think it is acknowledged and common ground that there will be a negative impact (the extent and duration of which is up for debate, it seems) from leaving the EU. At least in the short term. I have yet to see anyone from the "out" camp make any efforts of substance to establish non-EU trade links and treaties which will mitigate this negative impact. It's easy for Farage (incidentally, an unelected politician attempting to dictate the course and future of this country - not a very good advertisement that we are one of the world's best democracies on our own, PB) and co to huff and puff about the issue, but what have they done to ensure that we mitigate these impacts? I haven't seen them on any trade missions, I haven't seen a political or trade incentive pushed to non-EU countries, I haven't seen anything at all to suggest that the high-profile members of the "out" camp are making efforts to secure trade and political alliance anywhere above what the UK is already doing, and has done for some years.

I count myself as undecided on this. Though I have just (attempted to, at any rate) picked holes in someone's "leave" argument from the top of my head, I'm open to persuasion either way. Personally, I don't think it is as large an issue as we have been told it is by politicians and the media. It's a current talking point. Farage and Tory back-benchers have made their names out of this, the Daily Express is owned and run by someone who funds UKIP as a party, and the Daily Mail is an outrage-generating machine who saw it as an easy target. I think we have much, much larger issues than the EU to worry about at the moment. I will definitely be voting on it, though, as it's important for democracy, as Iain rightly says.

However, I recognise that it is always far easier to argue and pick holes, than to be open to persuasion. So, to misuse court terminology, those wishing for us to leave have brought the case, they have to demonstrate why we should. As such, I'm an open vote - can someone from the "vote leave" camp persuade me that we should leave, instead of just arguing about it?

pbeardmore wrote:"There will be nothing to stop those in power changing laws to suit their backers"
so we have to be in Europe because , without it, the UK is not a democracy and we need Europe to protect us from our own Parliament? We have one of the oldest and best established Parliamentary democracies in the World, how did the "common man" survive before we entered the EU? This is a good example of a complete loss if faith concerning our ability to effectively and fairly run our own affairs.


Well, (just as an example) Nigel Farage has been huffing and puffing about this, and I think can safely be said is the principle person that has brought this issue to the fore and continues to hammer it home. Farage - a politician that has never been elected, funded by the owner of a huge media outlet that acts as his propaganda mouthpiece, attempting to dictate the future of the UK both politically and economically. It's not exactly a beacon of spotlessness for our democracy...
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby farnboroughrob on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 11:06 am

For me this is heart v head and I am undecided. Heart says leave head says stay. The main problem with the leave camp is the same with the out camp in the Scottish referendum. I want to know what exactly will happen, and when if we leave, trouble is the government will not spend any civil service time on that so it is a leap in the dark. My main questions are...

1. will UK citizens still have freedom to live and work in EU nations ( I want to retire to Spain in about 10 years and work part time), will we negotiate this with the EU or individual states?

2. in terms of the free market will we have to become like Norway and pay lots to be in the single market or can we negotiate a stand alone agreement? In the modern world companies look for price and quality and where the goods come from is not important. Can we also join the north american free trade area and maybe set up a Commonwealth free trade area? Personally i would rather have freedom of movement with the US, Canada, Australia and NZ than the EU!

3. What will happen to the EHIC card and treatment for UK citizens while on holiday?

4 How much will this cost tax payers?

Trouble is this practical stuff is ignored by the out campaign. We need practical answers to things that actually effect our lives not aload of rhetoric about the EU.

Rob
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby tankbuster on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 11:07 am

I believe that if we leave the EU we should be afraid, very afraid and for none of the reasons that have been mentioned in the Cameron pantomime. UK Politicians of all persuasions, on a 5 year cycle, have no reason to consider anything else other than will they get voted in next time, which usually means seeing what they can do to get the man in the street or more importantly the already super rich man in their mansion happy just long enough to get to the ballot box.

UK politicians will happily concrete over the UK if it meets their short term requirements.
UK politicians care nothing about the environment because they cannot do anything in their 5 year life cycle
UK politicians don't give a toss about climate changes because your great great grandchildren who are some way away from conception don't have a vote.
UK politicians aren't actually intelligent enough to understand how pollination works or matters or why environmental issues are actually much more import to our well being than a 0.1% rise in GDP.

The EU isn't perfect but much of the legislation that comes out of it is for the common good not the next ballot box vote. The European Environmental Directive is surprisingly comprehensive and most UK politicians have little or no interest in its content. Why should they; they have a good job?
Last edited by tankbuster on Fri 11 Mar 2016, 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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