Should we stay or should we go now?

Should the UK leave the EU

Yes
145
56%
No
114
44%
 
Total votes : 259

Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:14 am

Speedbird, your basic investigation into the Eden project is exactly how all voters should be working and a great example of how the facts are available (I suspect online?). I am guessing that graphic will be shared by thousands of voters via social media but how many will do their own basic detective work and uncover the true context of spending our money.

If inners have to resort to using the Eden project to justify staying in, then I think it's game over. The UK has serious issue around the NHS and social care for the vulnerable. (unique for us within the EU) and this cash would go a long way to help those within the UK who really need it rather than subsidize a walk through a big greenhouse.

I am not saying that in itself is a game changer and tips the balance but it would be refreshing for inners to admit that these projects cant be justified within a larger context of health and welfare spending rather than use it on a graphic to show how great the EU is. The alternative argument is to say, well lets stay in and change the balance of the spending but DC's recent grovelling has shown how hard it is to get the smallest of changes agreed.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:46 am

Cheers pb.

@ DerekF - unfortunately everyone over 18 is allowed to vote. Now most on here are probably reasonably sensible and will no doubt do a bit of research/ reading before June. But in the wider community most won't. In the 2015 GE Ukip were placed third in terms of number of votes with nearly 4m - presumably all those who voted for Ukip can be pretty much counted on to vote 'out' in June?

Also I suspect anyone who works in an environment that doesn't involve trade with Europe will think "Well it doesn't benefit me to be in Europe!" so they could be swayed to vote 'out'. Anyone who has (or believes they have) 'lost' their job as a result of people coming in from Europe (plenty of anecdotal evidence of companies shutting on Friday making all their staff redundant and then opening short time later under an ever so slightly amended name using exclusively Eastern Euro agency employees) would be leaning towards 'out'.

People always quote the freedom of movement and the ability for anyone to be able to move to any country and work there - but just try doing that in reality. Most countries are much more nationalistic than the UK. Read any website or book abt moving to Europe and they will warn you that in the jobs market a European employer won't hesitate to give preferential treatment to an applicant from that country even if you have all the relevant quali's and experience. And I would suspect the number of people who have come to the UK to work is 10x higher than the number who have left the UK to work in EU.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/566211/Blair-aide-We-screwed-immigration-13000-became-ONE-MILLION And then you have headlines like this - people paying tax are going to be thinking "Why is my UK tax paying child support to a child that lives in Warsaw - what is that to do with the UK's DWP?" Now the amount actually paid might be tiny as a % of the GDP or overall spend but people will remember the headline and not the detail.

I could go on and on listing groups of people who believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have been disadvantaged by our EU membership but when you add them all up it could quite easily add up to a win for the 'Out!' vote no matter what evidence there is to the contrary that EU membership benefits the UK as a whole - if the individual believes it is of no benefit/ disadvantages them as an individual then I would expect them to vote 'Out!'.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:36 am

DerekF wrote:
TKK 140 wrote:The UK and USA are huge trading partners. The US are currently negotiating a trade deal and deeply involved with aligning standards. So as the US want is to stay for this reasons there current position is understandable even if it's one individual. Things change and governments will adapt.


We are but the USA take protectionism very seriously

Not to mention their overt bias when things go wrong.....
European banks get fined for allegedly dodgy dealings yet the US ones doing the same thing don't.
European companies get hammered for any incident ( oil spill , fire , etc. ) yet the US contractors/sub-contractors who actually cause the problems get off scot-free ... or if it's a US company operating overseas or a US ship in non-US waters , the US government only takes minimal action if any at all ( Bhopal or the Exxon Valdez ring a bell ? )
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:45 am

TKK 140 wrote:The post about the French speaking French provided another chuckle, it is aleady de regueure cherie, and translation into every language is ça n'arrivera pas! I admire the way the French have maintained their way of life and institutions, we should have too.


I think every other country in the EU would be rolling in the aisles if you said that with a straight face. Tell me, how exactly has the UK changed so drastically? Must've missed the part where no one speaks English any more...

No, the actual reality is we've absolutely retained our culture and strengths as a nation, as much as any other nation in the EU.

One thing I've noticed is that people seem able to blame the EU for anything wrong in the UK. Of course, it never enters their mind that things not perfect here might, actually, just be because British people aren't very good at some things, shock horror...
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Wissam24 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:46 am

DerekF wrote:The old budget chestnut.

Proved as a myth many times.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

It appears that the EU's budget is subject to less error than many countries including the USA and many of the UK's government departments.


Seems like that's the end of the argument, as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby KyleG on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:14 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:@KyleG

If we hadn't been paying £7bn to the EU each year the UK govt could have funded that out of the money they saved on contributions - Whether they would have chosen to spend it is a different argument but the money would been there to be spent.


The money would have been there, but like you say, who knows if they would have spent it here? Looking at it historically, that'd be unlikely.

speedbird2639 wrote:Picking one thing off your list at random the Eden Project doesn't seem to be a massive success or a good way of spending £50m - "The Eden Trust revealed a trading loss of £1.3 million for 2012-13,on a turnover of £25.4 million. The Eden Project had posted a surplus of £136,000 for the previous year." I'm struggle to see how you can justify charging a family nearly £70 to look around a glorified garden and then make a loss of £1.3m.


Everyone can have bad years. http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/St-Aus ... z3df3N6sV2

speedbird2639 wrote:I suspect a lot of the other items on the list are basically nothing more than 'vanity projects' as well. Why spend large sums of money on airports that few will use (due to the sparsity of population in Cornwall)


220,000 people used Newquay in 2014, and with Ryanair coming next month, expect that to increase. Besides passenger numbers, Newquay Airport hosts Apple Aviation, a large aviation maintenance and scrapping company, British International Helicopters, AgustaWestland's training facility, Cornwall Air Ambulance, Gate Guards, Bristow SAR, Cornwall Aviation Heritage Centre and the Bloodhound Supersonic Car.

speedbird2639 wrote:on dental training hospital that would be better placed in areas of greater population density such as Bristol?


Cornwall needs dentists too.

speedbird2639 wrote:Why spend £50m of tax payers money on broadband when that is something the broadband providers (ie BT) shd be funding out of their development budget funded by their huge profits?


BT DID fund parts of the project.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 1:43 pm

Thanks for the link re the budget, I need to swat up more, we all have a few weeks,

re projects like Eden, broadband etc, clearly every country has to potential to fund projects and if they are worthy of funding , fine, but if you are supporting "in" then you not only have to justify the project but also the idea of giving funds to the EU en mass and then letting the EU decide which projects are worthy of funding and which are not (obvioulsy with the required admin overhead). Nobody is saying that, at a domestic level, we are not capable of allocating funding to worthy projects.

So, re the Eden project, to say the EU "did it" for us is based on the false assumption that, without the EU, somehow these things would not happen. The UK is full of projects that were funded at domestic level and more would be able to be funded via the additional funds that we would save by coming out. Only if we put in less than we got out would arguments like Eden have any weight.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby iainpeden on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 2:50 pm

London Stock Exchange and Deutsche Boerse in merger talks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35639157

Evidence that the economic union will continue as before regardless or that this is an opportunity brought about by membership of the EC?

No, I don't know either and am sittling firmly on the fence on this one.

I suspect the overriding factor for many will be the current immigration issues of refugees, sending child benefits abroad etc rather than the economic side. I have read that the cost of the child benefits being sent abroad is about £25 million a year; a very small amount in the big scheme of things when the lottery has recently paid out above that some to a single winner.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby TKK 140 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 4:47 pm

Wissam24 wrote:
TKK 140 wrote:The post about the French speaking French provided another chuckle, it is aleady de regueure cherie, and translation into every language is ça n'arrivera pas! I admire the way the French have maintained their way of life and institutions, we should have too.


I think every other country in the EU would be rolling in the aisles if you said that with a straight face. Tell me, how exactly has the UK changed so drastically? Must've missed the part where no one speaks English any more...

No, the actual reality is we've absolutely retained our culture and strengths as a nation, as much as any other nation in the EU.

One thing I've noticed is that people seem able to blame the EU for anything wrong in the UK. Of course, it never enters their mind that things not perfect here might, actually, just be because British people aren't very good at some things, shock horror...


Reply
I guess a lot would be laughing at the knieve stance of some on the other side of the debate.
My comment did say a chuckle, my view is life has changed immeasurably in many ways.
I am referring to their retention of things like their pension, retirement age and working week duration in particular. Ours, pensions, retirement age have reduced in recent years and if your younger you will be more stitched up as time goes by. This is not the fault of the French of course, but a sign of pressures on services here. They will resist both republic and EU laws at the drop of a lamb carcass on the motorway.
I really admire the French national phsyche by the way. It's "French" but not English so vive la difference!
Enjoying the debate but do think about the wider implications of what is being discussed, rather than posting an emotional response perhaps?
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby TKK 140 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 4:51 pm

DerekF wrote:
TKK 140 wrote: Oh dear no lightning 2 then? Course not. .


Eh?

Derek
The F35 or Lighting 2 involves UK manufacturers, agreed? according to the comments earlier this would not be possible?
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 1:46 pm

And do they really think this'll help the 'Out' campaign ??.......
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-02-24/ukip-member-releases-leave-eu-three-lions-parody-song/

:lmao:
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:04 pm

They've taken all our fish


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Is that really the best the Out campaign can come up with?!
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 4:16 pm

Wonder how impressed Skinner & Baddiel are with it ?
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 7:21 pm

Depends which side of the fence they stand, I guess.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 8:19 pm

Seem to recall that Skinner is/was a Labour supporter , not sure about Baddiel , though.
Where they stand on In/Out is another matter ..... again if I recall correctly , Baddiel's father is Welsh & his mother is German.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby helired3 on Thu 25 Feb 2016, 8:40 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Wonder how impressed Skinner & Baddiel are with it ?




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Just to be clear: me and Frank didn't give permission for this. But it's so brilliantly naff, we might've anyway. https://t.co/pbCAYNxdsg

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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Mooshie1956 on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 8:11 am

Reading this thread and all I see is what the implications are for the here and now. Has anyone stopped and thought about how our decision now will affect our children and there children in years to come?.
I can see both good and bad about staying or leaving, but there's also an old saying "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Hand on heart and I'm not interested in the politics of things, the patriotic side of me says leave. If I think on how this will impact our children of the future then surely to stay in would be the better choice. More integration within Europe and then hopefully the rest of the world, must make a more secure and better place for our children to live.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby iainpeden on Fri 26 Feb 2016, 12:14 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:Reading this thread and all I see is what the implications are for the here and now. Has anyone stopped and thought about how our decision now will affect our children and there children in years to come?.
I can see both good and bad about staying or leaving, but there's also an old saying "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Hand on heart and I'm not interested in the politics of things, the patriotic side of me says leave. If I think on how this will impact our children of the future then surely to stay in would be the better choice. More integration within Europe and then hopefully the rest of the world, must make a more secure and better place for our children to live.


To add to your point, the comments on this forum at present seem to be very Englishcentric (not read everything so apologies to the other countries in the UK if I'm wrong).
Listening to the various media outlets, Austria and Belgium have both brought in border controls which break the Schengen agreement and there is aproposal from Hungary that they too should hold an in/out referendum.

Initially, I thought that Boris Johnson's suggestion that the June referendum could essentially just be part of a renegotiation was his usual "bunkum" but I'm beginning to wonder if more EC sceptical politicians in other countries are beginning to look at the case for fundemental reforms with us, as usual, being in the lead.

I suspect that there will be positives and negatives in whatever is decided, both long and short term.

{At this point a firm "Don't Know}
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby parsley on Sat 27 Feb 2016, 3:30 am

iainpeden wrote:
Mooshie1956 wrote:Reading this thread and all I see is what the implications are for the here and now. Has anyone stopped and thought about how our decision now will affect our children and there children in years to come?.
I can see both good and bad about staying or leaving, but there's also an old saying "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Hand on heart and I'm not interested in the politics of things, the patriotic side of me says leave. If I think on how this will impact our children of the future then surely to stay in would be the better choice. More integration within Europe and then hopefully the rest of the world, must make a more secure and better place for our children to live.


To add to your point, the comments on this forum at present seem to be very Englishcentric (not read everything so apologies to the other countries in the UK if I'm wrong).
Listening to the various media outlets, Austria and Belgium have both brought in border controls which break the Schengen agreement and there is aproposal from Hungary that they too should hold an in/out referendum.

Initially, I thought that Boris Johnson's suggestion that the June referendum could essentially just be part of a renegotiation was his usual "bunkum" but I'm beginning to wonder if more EC sceptical politicians in other countries are beginning to look at the case for fundemental reforms with us, as usual, being in the lead.

I suspect that there will be positives and negatives in whatever is decided, both long and short term.

{At this point a firm "Don't Know}


I think Boris's stance however is more to do with him backing the horse that at the time he feels will serve him best in his more important aim of being Conservative Party leader rather than concerns about the EU
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 27 Feb 2016, 4:18 am

iainpeden wrote:To add to your point, the comments on this forum at present seem to be very Englishcentric (not read everything so apologies to the other countries in the UK if I'm wrong).
Listening to the various media outlets, Austria and Belgium have both brought in border controls which break the Schengen agreement and there is a proposal from Hungary that they too should hold an in/out referendum.

( See my post about halfway down page 2 :wink: )


Initially, I thought that Boris Johnson's suggestion that the June referendum could essentially just be part of a renegotiation was his usual "bunkum" but I'm beginning to wonder if more EC sceptical politicians in other countries are beginning to look at the case for fundamental reforms with us, as usual, being in the lead.

After somewhat muddying the waters with is newspaper articles , he's now apparently clarified things by saying that "What I want is to get out and then negotiate a series of trade arrangements around the world."
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby DanH on Sun 28 Feb 2016, 8:46 am

As a side note, is anyone else getting fed up with hearing the term 'Brexit'? Personally I think whoever came up with it ought to be tasered on live TV.
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby speedbird2639 on Sun 28 Feb 2016, 9:50 am

DanH wrote:As a side note, is anyone else getting fed up with hearing the term 'Brexit'? Personally I think whoever came up with it ought to be tasered on live TV.


^^This! I would pay to see that happen!
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby Wissam24 on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 3:19 pm

parsley wrote:
iainpeden wrote:
Mooshie1956 wrote:Reading this thread and all I see is what the implications are for the here and now. Has anyone stopped and thought about how our decision now will affect our children and there children in years to come?.
I can see both good and bad about staying or leaving, but there's also an old saying "better the devil you know, than the one you don't". Hand on heart and I'm not interested in the politics of things, the patriotic side of me says leave. If I think on how this will impact our children of the future then surely to stay in would be the better choice. More integration within Europe and then hopefully the rest of the world, must make a more secure and better place for our children to live.


To add to your point, the comments on this forum at present seem to be very Englishcentric (not read everything so apologies to the other countries in the UK if I'm wrong).
Listening to the various media outlets, Austria and Belgium have both brought in border controls which break the Schengen agreement and there is aproposal from Hungary that they too should hold an in/out referendum.

Initially, I thought that Boris Johnson's suggestion that the June referendum could essentially just be part of a renegotiation was his usual "bunkum" but I'm beginning to wonder if more EC sceptical politicians in other countries are beginning to look at the case for fundemental reforms with us, as usual, being in the lead.

I suspect that there will be positives and negatives in whatever is decided, both long and short term.

{At this point a firm "Don't Know}


I think Boris's stance however is more to do with him backing the horse that at the time he feels will serve him best in his more important aim of being Conservative Party leader rather than concerns about the EU


If (when, as he surely believes) the In vote wins, he gets to play the noble, principled loser who can rally both sides of the party around him. If Out wins, he's on the winning side. It's a win/win for him. He's always be a more centrist Tory and always been a Europhile (how could the Mayor of London not be, after all?)
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby CJS on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 8:14 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:
DanH wrote:As a side note, is anyone else getting fed up with hearing the term 'Brexit'? Personally I think whoever came up with it ought to be tasered on live TV.


^^This! I would pay to see that happen!


I'd pay more to be the one to do it :-P
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Re: Should we stay or should we go now?

Postby DanH on Mon 29 Feb 2016, 9:56 pm

CJS wrote:
speedbird2639 wrote:
DanH wrote:As a side note, is anyone else getting fed up with hearing the term 'Brexit'? Personally I think whoever came up with it ought to be tasered on live TV.


^^This! I would pay to see that happen!


I'd pay more to be the one to do it :-P


Join the queue! :grin:
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