Nelson Must Fall!

Nelson Must Fall!

Postby AlexC on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 9:26 am

Was watching Newsnight last night when up popped a certain Afua Hirsch (no, I'd never heard of her either) saying that our great naval hero Horatio Nelson together with his column and presumably including Landseer's lions should be removed from Trafalgar Square, the reason being a little unclear, but I think that slavery was involved somehow? Of course there's no way that Ms. Hirsch is going to get her way until if or when the loonies take over the asylum, but in the meantime there is actual slavery taking place in the world right now that she'd be better off campaigning against.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Paul_Reflex on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 9:46 am

I didn't see the Newsnight piece, but I did read an article about this 'issue' in the Guardian a few days ago. The main thrust of this was that Nelson actively tried to impede the progress of Wiberforce and the British abolitionists.

It reminded me that General Montgomery was an very active campaigner against the movement to legalise homosexuality.

I would agree that if these traits were the only things that these people were known for then they shouldn't be publicly venerated. It isn't though of course, they are celebrated for military victories at Trafalgar and El Alamein.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 9:59 am

Been discussed on another forum I'm on for several days now....naturally none of the comments have been complimentary towards her.
She's no different to the odious racist twerp who was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship to Oxford University last year then spent most of his time demanding the University expunged all references to Rhodes.

Amongst her original claims is that Nelson was a slave-owner......which proves how useless a journalist she is, because he wasn't :roll:
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 10:39 am

Poisonous knee-jerk trolling from a writer from a newspaper at the opposite end politically, but no different in many respects to the Daily Mail. The only difference being that the rabble it rouses are on the Left.

Britain's past is what it is. As with most countries you might argue some of what was done hundreds of years ago, through modern eyes, could be considered distasteful. Personally, I take offence at the championing of socialists and Leftist historical figures, given the misery that doctrine has inflicted, and continues to inflict on the world, but accept that history is history.

Shame on the media for giving such a crackpot the time of day.

The world has far greater issues and concerns than a few old statues. But the Left won't let you discuss those...
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 11:35 am

The irony is that at the time the Royal Navy was an equal opportunity employer.....there were more restrictions on Catholics than there were on anyone else.
Colour was no bar to serving as a sailor & the only restriction they faced to becoming an Officer was the same as anyone else -- they had to pass the relevant 'examinations' before being promoted & the usual influence of patronage applied.
And presumably she's not seen the painting 'The Death of Nelson'.......you know, the one which very prominently features a black sailor standing behind Nelson :whistle:
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 11:44 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Britain's past is what it is. As with most countries you might argue some of what was done hundreds of years ago, through modern eyes, could be considered distasteful.

The problem is that - as in America - there are those out there who, rather than acknowledge history, are intent on obliterating and/or rewriting it to suit their agenda.
Ironically, they tend to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being a 'Nazi' ( thus illustrating the fact that they have no knowledge of history )
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby AlexC on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 12:21 pm

Paul_Reflex wrote:The main thrust of this was that Nelson actively tried to impede the progress of Wiberforce and the British abolitionists.


I don't recall that being the main thrust of Ms Hirsch's argument last night. The counter argument made was rather that Nelson having given the Royal Navy control of the seas following Trafalgar aided Wilberforce.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 12:40 pm

Can't speak for last night, but you may want to read this : https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/22/toppling-statues-nelsons-column-should-be-next-slavery
From which :
One of the obstacles all these abolitionists had to overcome was the influence of Nelson, who was what you would now call, without hesitation, a white supremacist. While many around him were denouncing slavery, Nelson was vigorously defending it. Britain’s best known naval hero – so idealised that after his death in 1805 he was compared to no less than “the God who made him” – used his seat in the House of Lords and his position of huge influence to perpetuate the tyranny, serial rape and exploitation organised by West Indian planters, some of whom he counted among his closest friends.


The rest of the article is one long diatribe against British history.


Oh, and this...
Take Nelson’s column. Yes, it does include the figure of a black sailor, cast in bronze in the bas-relief. He was probably one of the thousands of slaves promised freedom if they fought for the British military, only to be later left destitute, begging and homeless, on London’s streets when the war was over.

Again illustrating her lack of historical knowledge -- pathetic, really. :facepalm:
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby AlexC on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 12:57 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Again illustrating her lack of historical knowledge -- pathetic, really. :facepalm:


Agreed.

As far as I'm aware Nelson did not own slaves which both George Washington and Thomas Jefferson for example most certainly did. Perhaps before she goes after Nelson she should be calling for the destruction of the Washington and Jefferson memorials in Washington DC?
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 1:06 pm

...calling for the destruction of the Washington and Jefferson memorials in Washington DC?

Which, ironically, is one of the points Trump made in his comments on the Charlottesville riots.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby tankbuster on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 3:47 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Poisonous knee-jerk trolling from a writer from a newspaper at the opposite end politically, but no different in many respects to the Daily Mail. The only difference being that the rabble it rouses are on the Left.

Britain's past is what it is. As with most countries you might argue some of what was done hundreds of years ago, through modern eyes, could be considered distasteful. Personally, I take offence at the championing of socialists and Leftist historical figures, given the misery that doctrine has inflicted, and continues to inflict on the world, but accept that history is history.

Shame on the media for giving such a crackpot the time of day.

The world has far greater issues and concerns than a few old statues. But the Left won't let you discuss those...


as someone who thinks he likes to say he sits in the middle politically, your condemnation of the left for containing all the loonies is a bit over the top. If you take the average, flat earther, climate change denier, Christian fundamentalist, Ku Klux Klan member, gun toting Americans, they are all loonies and all with right wing political tendencies. Loonies are not politically on one side or the other, they are loonies.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 3:58 pm

Leaving Nelsons collumn to one side, our nation's past (including our faults) is a little like religion. Its almost impossible to have a rational debate/conversation as national pride gets in the way.

We tend to write our own history (as does every nation) and obvioulsy in the best possible light. Later on, those who choose to review the facts and interpret them in a less flatering light normally get a good hammering.

I'm pretty sure the Aboriginal community did not get a fair shout, for example, when I was learning about Captain Cook at school.

There is also some kind of inertia within history. Once a certain account is believed and established, its almost impossible to get people to accept an alternative narrative. Hitchen's book on Mother Teresa is a good example.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby AlexC on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 4:08 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Which, ironically, is one of the points Trump made in his comments on the Charlottesville riots.


In which case that could be one of the only sensible things he's said recently.

Incidentally, regarding Thomas Jefferson, when his wife was on her deathbed she made him promise not to re-marry, and he kept his promise. However, he took one of his slaves, Sally Hemings, as his mistress, and they had several children together. Their descendants are living today, proved fairly recently by DNA tests. As far as George Washington is concerned, I've visited his estate at Mount Vernon, and there you can see the quite small area set aside for slave burials. No names are recorded, they are all unknown.

The box set of the series 'John Adams' is well watch watching to get a sense of life in America around this time. And it's very good!
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby AndyXH558 on Wed 23 Aug 2017, 10:19 pm

we are sleepwalking into the state orwell predicted.
Code: Select all
Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Finningley Boy on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 8:40 am

Is it too far in the dim and distant past for British to demand the tearing down of Hadrian's Wall! It is a permanent reminder of Italian oppression of the English and denial of the free movement of us Scots?! :sad:

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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby aceyone on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 9:17 am

Finningley Boy wrote:Is it too far in the dim and distant past for British to demand the tearing down of Hadrian's Wall! It is a permanent reminder of Italian oppression of the English and denial of the free movement of us Scots?! :sad:

FB :cuppa: :biggrin:



Add to the list all the castles that represent the the Norman Yoke imposed against the English !
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby toom317 on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 9:18 am

Finningley Boy wrote:Is it too far in the dim and distant past for British to demand the tearing down of Hadrian's Wall! It is a permanent reminder of Italian oppression of the English and denial of the free movement of us Scots?! :sad:

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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 6:27 pm

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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 25 Aug 2017, 7:26 pm

We are living in strange, unhinged times. To deny one's history, or to be coerced into so doing, is to be on a dangerous slope. Liberal nonsense needs stamping out before the damage is irreversible.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby pbeardmore on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 11:24 am

I mentioned Capt Cook in a previous post:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... by-vandals

Surely, stating that Cook discovered Australia is denying the history of the people who actuallly lived there for thousands of years before Cook visited? A perfect example of the more powerful re-writing history to their own advantage.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 12:16 pm

But he did discover it.
After all, nobody in Europe knew it was there until he found it, which, if the offence-takers bothered looking it up, fits one of the dictionary definitions :
to see, find, or become aware of (something) for the first time
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby pbeardmore on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 1:11 pm

There are tribes in the Amazon who are not aware of the UK, if one of them makes the trip to Heathrow, do they put up a statue of him in London as the guy who discovered London? obviously not

To frame World history and knowledge around what Europe did and did not know is exactly the point. (ignoring what native Australians had known for thousands of years)


Cook discovered Australia through European eyes but not though the people whose home it was and had been (and still is). To twist the definition is to undermine/ignore their existence. He made the first connection between two continents.

The same applies to "Ayers Rock", should we have kept the name Ayers Rock?
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby Brevet Cable on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 4:08 pm

That's the way things were, as they'd been for Centuries ( Millennia even ).....that's the way 'Empire building' worked.
Some islands, for example, were 'discovered' ( and claimed on behalf of various Countries ) several times...they were usually happened upon, had their position mis-recorded, forgotten about, ignored as being useless/insignificant, rediscovered & claimed by someone else, etc.

Can a people who are already living in a region/island really be said to have discovered it, given that they're already there ?
And how far back do you go when deciding whether or not someone is a 'native' or 'indigenous' ?

Cook did discover Australia.
Columbus didn't discover America ( or not North America anyway ) neither did Vespucci for that matter.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby pbeardmore on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 4:28 pm

"Can a people who are already living in a region/island really be said to have discovered it"

No, they have always lived there via evolution. (I did mention, thousands of years)

These posts are great evidence that our version of history "as we wrote it" have become so ingrained within Western culture that we find it very hard (if not impossible) to review the facts, apply logic/reason and review what happened.

Leading from that, once you think you have discovered a country (ignoring the people you are alrady there), its an easy step to then take ownership (again, ignoring the people who are already there).


So the "discovery" narrative fits in perfectly with what we actually did (stick a flag in it and claim ownership) and the fact that it was already the home of a whole nation/culture is conveniently overlooked. The language we use avoids us dealing with hard questions about our past.

If an alien race "discovered" planet earth, stuck their own flag on it and errected a statue of the captain of the ship , I think we may have something to say about that. But, as the more powerfull force, the aliens would be writing the history books.
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Re: Nelson Must Fall!

Postby ericbee123 on Sat 26 Aug 2017, 5:42 pm

Yeah, those lands we found were full of peace loving tribes that spent all day painting pictures and making daisy chains. They didn't indulge in fighting each other, killing each other, making slaves of each other or sacrificing each other. We just happened to have the biggest stick and the ability to "discover" them.

If an alien race discovered us and was so powerful as to enslave us all, I would expect them to build statues and honour their warriors like the Romans, Greeks, Aztecs and every human race does/did. I wouldn't expect them to feel guilty many generations later either.

The default setting for humans is to be horrible to each other. Get over it. It doesn't bother other animals unless there are liberal lions campaigning for zebras rights to exist.
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