Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 12:01 am

Its similar to Bond in that there are many fans who have been brought up with both the series and the characters. They are household names and their reach goes way beyond the limited "geek" fanbase.There is a tremendous amount of warmth and affection for the series and there is genuine excitement when a new movie comes out.

So the let down is bigger when the movie disappoints.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Big_Gareth on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 8:58 am

pbeardmore wrote:Its similar to Bond in that there are many fans who have been brought up with both the series and the characters. They are household names and their reach goes way beyond the limited "geek" fanbase.There is a tremendous amount of warmth and affection for the series and there is genuine excitement when a new movie comes out.

So the let down is bigger when the movie disappoints.


Yeah I get that, I really do. I am of an age where I played with the toys the first time around, I really enjoy both franchises and Star Wars will always have that special place in my heart. But isn't it those expectations that is part of the problem here? TLJ did things that fans didn't expect, moved characters in a slightly different direction and accelerated lots of preconceived ideas that people had before seeing the film.

It would be interesting to know what you would do differently in the film? For every change or improvement, I'm sure that there would be someone else that would disagree and would prefer a completely different approach. Imagine if they had tried to make Kylo Ren some ultra tough, ultra powerful bad guy, then everyone would have complained that it diminished the Darth Vader character. Did you want to see Luke being a great mentor and training Rey... then everyone would have compared this to Obi-Wan/Yoda. Would it have been as good as watching Alec Guiness? Do we really want to sit through and watch Rey in training mode when we've seen this all before first with Luke and then with Anakin? Did we really want Snoke to become The Emperor V2.0? I think TLJ has put the series in a great position, moving forwards and I really hope that the next film has the bravery to continue into new territory.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 5:36 pm

Good questions: I have no problems with creative story lines but it has to stay within the remit of what we know from the previous movies. This goes beyond plot and story. You can be creative re the story but still have the characters remaining true to themslelves and true to how the audience relate to them. Luke is the hero. That was always his role in the original three. He represents optimism and enlightment - always looking at the brighside and always looking for the good in everyone. He is highly symbolic.

So is this the man who stands over his nephew (and son of his best friend) planning to kill him?

In terms of what I would do?

Have fewer characters, more time for chewy, have Luke actually come out and fight, be true to his original character and live for another movie, do something creative re Rey's parents, let Kilo fully commit to the dark side, drop the flippant humour, have no silly side plots that have no stakes re the plot, kill off the Princess (if possible) that would surely get Luke off the island?, bring back Lando and have him renew his friendship with chewy, have one proper finale rather then the drawn out climax that just went on and on, have time for Luke and Rey to develop a far deeper "father/daughter" relationship (or the start of one), drop the Laura Dern character, explain how the lightsabre got to Rey in the first place, either dont have Phasma or give them a proper role, have Snoke killed by Luke, drop the code breakng character

thats for a start.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Wissam24 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 6:45 pm

Chatting with a friend this afternoon raised an interesting point. At the end of TFA, you see Rey holding out the saber to Luke. Luke's look say it all - fear, awareness, loss. In one glance, we see that Luke knows who Rey is, what's happened, why she's come. We see the sadness in his eyes that everything he's tied to escape has come back to haunt him.

And then suddenly - nah, forget that. We'll make him totally unaware of anything. This great One with the Force didn't even feel his closest friend die? It totally undid everything that occurred in that final scene in the last movie. It's like Johnson saw the end and went "nah I don't like that", so just went and did entirely his own thing, with no regard for anything set up in the last movie.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 6:51 pm

Agree, plus the map.

Luke knew his skills would be needed in the future so he left the map (the map was a key part of the plot in TFA) and that moment right at the end of TFA was meant to be pretty special and TLJ 100% trashes the moment. It's just horrible,.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 6:51 pm

Look on the bright side.....it's now a Disney franchise, but so far at least they haven't had any of their obligatory song-and-dance scenes :biggrin:

The flippant humour was part of the original films, as were snappy one-liners.
The problem is when they're over-used, as they were in TFA in my opinion.
The writers apparently need to rewatch the original films ( or something more recent like 'Serenity' ) to learn how it should be done.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Wissam24 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 6:54 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Look on the bright side.....it's now a Disney franchise, but so far at least they haven't had any of their obligatory song-and-dance scenes :biggrin:

The flippant humour was part of the original films, as were snappy one-liners.
The problem is when they're over-used, as they were in TFA in my opinion.
The writers apparently need to rewatch the original films ( or something more recent like 'Serenity' ) to learn how it should be done.


I've no problem with humour at all. I have a problem with humour being injected into every single scene, just for the sake of it, where it doesn't come even remotely naturally from the characters in that moment.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby pbeardmore on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 7:00 pm

The flippant humour should not be used aganst the bad guys, it undermines the threat.

Can you imagine being that flippant and childish to Darth or Grand Moff Tarkin. Humour has its place and certain characters are there for humour. Chewy and the robots are there for that. Guiness did not do humour for example, it would have undermined his stature and role within the movie

the joke re Rey "reaching out" is appaling.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Wissam24 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 7:06 pm

Rogue One, again, got it perfectly. You had some funny moments, one character with a lot of comic relief, but the serious scenes were allowed to be serious, throughout. This makes the humour better as well! The bit where Chirrut has the bag over his head and goes "Are you kidding me? I'm blind!" works because it's a rare outright joke in the movie. I feel like in TLJ, it'd just have been any other line.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 7:16 pm

Hence my 'over-used' comment......TFA was bad enough in that respect, is TLJ even worse ?

Pithy one-liners were used against the bad guys in the original films, but at least there they were in keeping with the character.

Granted I haven't seen TLJ yet, but from TFA & R-1 I get the impression that they've lost the plot......they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the originals( to appeal to a new, younger audience ) but appear unsure how.
When it comes to hard-core sci-fi they've already been comprehensively out-done by the BSG franchise, and for the lighter sci-fi they've been outdone by 'Serenity' & the current 'Star Trek' franchise
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Wissam24 on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 7:27 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Hence my 'over-used' comment......TFA was bad enough in that respect, is TLJ even worse ?

Pithy one-liners were used against the bad guys in the original films, but at least there they were in keeping with the character.

Granted I haven't seen TLJ yet, but from TFA & R-1 I get the impression that they've lost the plot......they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the originals( to appeal to a new, younger audience ) but appear unsure how.
When it comes to hard-core sci-fi they've already been comprehensively out-done by the BSG franchise, and for the lighter sci-fi they've been outdone by 'Serenity' & the current 'Star Trek' franchise


I thought TLJ was worse. Dunno know if it's worse in volume but far worse in terms of gross inappropriateness re scene tone.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Big_Gareth on Sun 24 Dec 2017, 11:02 pm

Brevet Cable wrote: from TFA & R-1 I get the impression that they've lost the plot......they seem to be trying to distance themselves from the originals( to appeal to a new, younger audience ) but appear unsure how.


They have to move the series in a new direction. With all due respect how much leg room was there in watching three 70 year old actors flexing their acting muscles in a Star Wars styled movie? Using them as the supporting cast was absolutely the right thing to do. They were each meant to have a movie, first Ford then Hamill, then Fisher but sadly things didn't play out that way. Working in a school I can absolutely say with 100% certainty that a younger generation has found Star Wars now. The "kids" like and care about the new cast.

I'm torn with the Luke comments too: For me it is absolutely in character that he has become a grumpy old man, waiting to die after what he contemplated doing to Ren, he failed the Jedi, he effectively started the new Empire, he let down his sister and Han, he absolutely should be broken. And yes you could argue that he never would have contemplated killing Ren but the important detail here is that he doesn't go through with it, he recounts something like "in that moment all I was left with was shame". Luke always wore his heart on his sleeve, he made rash decisions, he very nearly quit his training in TESB and even in Jedi when he had mastered his skills, he was close to turning to the dark side. There was nothing from Luke in this film that felt so wrong that it spoiled the character to me.

As for the humour, well finally we've found something that I agree with. The humour in this film is HORRIBLE! The Original Trilogy had subtle jokes, this started to be replaced in the prequels by poop gags and misplaced/inappropriate droids distracting from parts of the films that were supposed to be darker in tone. Now we get mum jokes and "banter" in nearly ever scene. It is completely jarring and frequently takes you out of the moment. The humour has been modernised to appeal to the new audience and I hated the majority of it.
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Postby pbeardmore on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 12:11 am

Leaving aside our own personal views, on the Rotten Toms website, Rogue One is getting an 87% approval rating, the Force Awakens is 88% and TLJ is currently on 52%. There clearly is some sort of issue here.
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Postby vandal on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 8:33 am

Brevet Cable wrote:
Pithy one-liners were used against the bad guys in the original films, but at least there they were in keeping with the character.


The sarcasm from Poe in the opening scene when he was in his little X-wing facing down an utterly massive First Order ship, to me, was really the only instance when the humour was appropriate to the situation.

Anyone else feel that BB-8 was used to fill the role of Han Solo in some scenes? - Ep 4 with Han saving Luke on the Trench run vs BB-8 piloting an AT-ST to save Finn from a squad of Stormtroopers? Something you could have seen Solo doing, had he been alive.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Big_Gareth on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 11:33 am

pbeardmore wrote:Leaving aside our own personal views, on the Rotten Toms website, Rogue One is getting an 87% approval rating, the Force Awakens is 88% and TLJ is currently on 52%. There clearly is some sort of issue here.


Spoken like a true statistician :grin: because of course I could quote the critic's scores RO 85%, TFA 93% and TLJ 92%. But you're right there clearly is some sort of issue and that is what drew me to this thread initially because I wanted to see what people's exact criticisms were. It is the gap between the audience scores and critics scores that is unheard of on Rotten Tomatoes. Some of the audience reviews are really embarrassing (and not because they disagree with me). It's the old chestnut of 5 star reviews or 1 star reviews with nothing in between. Still at least people are talking about Star Wars again after the car crash of the Prequels (The Phantom Menace audience score of 59%, making it better than TLJ ??? Kind of destroys the Rotten Tomatoes argument by the way).

Anyhow I'll be seeing the film again soon, it would be dull if we all liked the same things, i'll just finish with a couple of quotes that I read this morning which I agree with:

“When people get really attached to a property, they get a certain sense of entitlement about how the story needs to unfold,” “And when expectations are dashed — even in a way that ought to be pleasing, because having your expectations dashed sometimes is a lot of fun, — it can be disappointing.”

“My impression of J.J. Abrams at this point—and this might be completely unfair, I don’t know him or anything—but my impression is that he loves movies, and he knows everything there is to know about movies, and doesn’t have a lot to say. Whereas I feel like Rian Johnson has things to say. And I’m afraid that this trilogy could easily mirror the first trilogy, where you have the crowd-pleasing first movie, then you have the dark, kind of weird second movie that people only in retrospect recognize was the most interesting one, and then you have a third mindless crowd-pleasing one again. And I’m sort of expecting that J.J. Abrams is going to come in on the next movie and it’s just going to be fun and the good guys are going to win, and there won’t be anything more to it than that.”
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby AndyXH558 on Mon 25 Dec 2017, 8:45 pm

I remember that Empire wasn't received very well originally, however for many it was their favorite of the saga. I feel that this in the future after what happens in Episode 9 willl be seen as a great film.

however

I've heard a lot of criticism of the canto bight scene, having no relevance to the story line. To be honest when we got on set we all thought what the hell is going on here?

As we got on set we were all summoned to where the stairs were so Rian Johnson spoke to us about his vision of what is going on.

He said, we are in a place where nothing affects life for you, you are the the universes elite, you are the ones financing all the conflict on both sides, you are the ones who are creating this greed for power, its a side that hasn't been seen in the star wars universe. Its an integral part of the story.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby pbeardmore on Tue 26 Dec 2017, 12:38 am

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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby timuss on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 9:09 pm

Saw it finaly over the weekend and really enjoyed it, however there were some points that i struggled with. Luke's "death" Although there are some very interesting video's on youtube with views on this and Snoke's "death"

Leia floating through space ok?? Really!

Rey seemingly getting away from the destroyer and straight to Krate in no time at all.

Captain Phasma bit of a waste the new trilogy's Boba Fett?

There were other points can't recall them all need that second viewing.

However the positives way outnumber the negatives for me John Williams on fine form once again with the score. I really liked the bombers at the beginning arming them etc.. ww2 feel right there. Definatley needs a second viewing for me to take all the details in that i missed the first time.

It's going to be a long two years i just hope we get all the questions and loose ends answered in episode 9.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby AFKAMC on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 9:44 am

I calculate it's been 37 years since I last got really excited about a Star Wars movie, which is scary. Therefore, and given the 2.5-hour run time of TLJ, I wasn't particularly looking forward to taking my son to see it.

But surprisingly, it didn’t drag at all. Mark Hamill was good, and it makes sense that Luke would no longer be the idealistic optimist of his youth (I know I’m not). I think I’m in the minority here, in that I actually enjoyed the Canto Bight scene – especially the bit when the alien horse/dog things trashed the place in their bid for freedom.

As with all Star Wars movies, best not to dwell too much on the plot holes, and endeavour to keep your disbelief firmly suspended. Having said that, the scene with the Rebel bomber was stretching it, relying on stuff – not just the bombs, but Rose's sister and the bomb release control as well – falling DOWN the bomb bay – in space? Maybe that dreadnought was so massive it had its own gravity well?

Happy to report, though, that my sons of 16 and 11 years all enjoyed it, which I think is the main thing. They are kids’ movies, after all. :smile:
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Postby AndyXH558 on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 1:38 pm

you will see more trashing of canto bight in the blue ray release. including more speeders, gambling tables and flying people
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Postby phreakf4 on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 7:04 pm

AFKAMC wrote:.... and the bomb release control as well – falling DOWN the bomb bay – in space? Maybe that dreadnought was so massive it had its own gravity well?...


Surely I can't be the only person on this forum who has noticed that all Star Wars spacecraft (even the smallest) appear to be able to generate artificial gravity?...

I saw the film with my son and quite enjoyed it. It seems that many on here have either not heard of Shakespeare's "willing suspension of disbelief" or choose not to engage it....

The series are movies. They are supposed to be entertainment, not scientific, historical or psychological "truth".....
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 7:20 pm

There is a "truth" within a character. When you take existing characters and see them acting out of character, that is the key issue with Last Jedi.

In TFA, when Han re=enters the Falcon, he smiles : "Chewie, we're home". It's a great moment (used as a key part of the trailer) as its warm and communicates the audience how much Han remembers "the good old days".

Contrast this to the scene in Last Jedi where Luke is handed his original light sabre. What emotion does this bring? Anger that he is being connected with a history he is trying to forget? Curiosity about how this girl found the sabre? Fondness for "the good old days"? Sadness at the loss of his father? any emotion would be something. But he shruggs his shoulders and tosses the sabre over his shoulder like is a piece of trash. And, by doing so, treats his own heritage as trash. And if thats how he feels, then why should the audience care?

(Remember the scene in Skyfall where Bond sees his DB5 trashed? He is really really pi##ed at this and it ups the stakes, taking his anger to the next level, its good writing. The DB5 in Bond is as iconic as Luke's light sabre.More than just metal. Something that brings heritage and emotion.)

Its just the most dreadful writing and makes JJ look like some kind of genius.

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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Tommy on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 8:10 pm

AFKAMC wrote:Having said that, the scene with the Rebel bomber was stretching it, relying on stuff – not just the bombs, but Rose's sister and the bomb release control as well – falling DOWN the bomb bay – in space? Maybe that dreadnought was so massive it had its own gravity well?


Fair enough, and this isn’t aimed at you specifically, but I can’t help but notice that most of the comments/commenters speaking out against this issue are completely fine with all of the noise in space battles. Imagine if we had never heard things like the iconic tie fighter whine.

So, yeah it’s fair, but I never had a problem with it when I went to see it.
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Re: Star Wars thread. Spoilers within.

Postby Big_Gareth on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:48 pm

pbeardmore wrote:
Its just the most dreadful writing and makes JJ look like some kind of genius.


Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong. - Luke Skywalker

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