Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby tankbuster on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:13 pm

This forum used to be quite vocal on all things Brexit but probably quite rightly in recent times has decided to concentrate on matters of aviation. I'm interested in whether any of the pot pourri of members has any faith in Theresa May and any belief that her white paper is taken us down a path that we want to be on.

I'm a hard remainer and I certainly didn't want to leave the EU while being beholden to them and having no say in policy making. Completely bonkers to me.
My other half is a hard Brexiter and she voted leave to leave the EU, not be half in with no say in policy making. She is furious.

I fail to see how anybody thinks this ludicrous middle road works but maybe somebody here can persuade me it's a good idea.
Last edited by tankbuster on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is anybody happy with nthe Brexit white paper?

Postby Big Eric on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:18 pm

Apart from the obvious typo in the title, what does "while being beholden top them" mean?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 3:24 pm

Nope is I think the answer tankbuster. There we go, lock the thread now :grin:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 4:02 pm

The sooner someone has the guts to stand up and end this madness, the better.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 4:41 pm

LN Strike Eagle wrote:The sooner someone has the guts to stand up and end this madness, the better.


That should be Cameron, he started it all off and then ran for the hills when the result was not what he'd been expecting. And May is a waste of space.
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 5:17 pm

The notion of Brexit is idiocy. We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them. I don't recall the public being told that companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork, face crippling tariffs or farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin. All the public were told about, and all they cared about was closing the borders, kicking out foreigners, stopping more foreigners coming in, lies about money for the NHS and "gettin are country back, innit". The issues involved are far too complex and much too far-reaching for a simple plebiscite or referendum to decide. We let people you'd not trust to tell the time correctly vote on the future of the country. Madness. The "result" should be ignored, the vote made void and politicians get on with what they should do - make this country work for the good of its people.

Those who campaigned to leave, such as those snakes Arron Banks and Nigel Farage, if it is found that they were indeed in cahoots with Moscow, they must be tried for treason and jailed for a very, very long time.

And if the Tories or Labour won't have the balls to stand up and turn this mess around, perhaps a new Remain party needs to stand, on the promise that it will throw this Brexit nonsense out of the window. My suspicion is that the traditional parties are terrified of losing the vote of the "52%", or that the knuckle-dragging Gammons among them will riot on the streets. Sod that, bugger the consequences - just stop this madness.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Homer on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 7:01 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote: I don't recall the public being told that companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork, face crippling tariffs or farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin.


They were, that was called project fear and was countered with "them Germans will still want to sell us their cars" and "we can use what we would have paid the EU to pay our own subsidies (as well as spend it on the NHS, it's magic money, don't ask)

As for the "plan", there's not much point discussing it unless the EU agree to it, which seems unlikely.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby The Baron on Thu 12 Jul 2018, 9:25 pm

"...Knuckle dragging Gammons..."
Oh you have a way with words Dan! Unfortunately what's happened is that we've been handed something that gives us the worst of both worlds thanks to empty vessels making the most sound and a bunch of spineless goons in parliament arguing amongst themselves.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby aceyone on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 8:21 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The notion of Brexit is idiocy. We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them. I don't recall the public being told that companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork, face crippling tariffs or farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin. All the public were told about, and all they cared about was closing the borders, kicking out foreigners, stopping more foreigners coming in, lies about money for the NHS and "gettin are country back, innit". The issues involved are far too complex and much too far-reaching for a simple plebiscite or referendum to decide. We let people you'd not trust to tell the time correctly vote on the future of the country. Madness. The "result" should be ignored, the vote made void and politicians get on with what they should do - make this country work for the good of its people.

Those who campaigned to leave, such as those snakes Arron Banks and Nigel Farage, if it is found that they were indeed in cahoots with Moscow, they must be tried for treason and jailed for a very, very long time.

And if the Tories or Labour won't have the balls to stand up and turn this mess around, perhaps a new Remain party needs to stand, on the promise that it will throw this Brexit nonsense out of the window. My suspicion is that the traditional parties are terrified of losing the vote of the "52%", or that the knuckle-dragging Gammons among them will riot on the streets. Sod that, bugger the consequences - just stop this madness.


Spot on :clap: :clap:
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 12:12 pm

As someone who works in the EU up to 30 trips a year, the thought of restrictions, paperwork and barriers to working there is horrifying - but luckily I qualify for an Irish passport, my colleagues aren't so lucky.

The dimwits who voted will be screwed when the few remaining manufacturing jobs go, and when they're waiting hours at passport control on their package holidays to Benidorm (they don't mind foreigners so much then), or when their pints of Stella suddenly jump in price because of import tariffs. But still, they're taking back control, getting their blue passports and sticking it up Johnny Foreigner...
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 2:46 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:luckily I qualify for an Irish passport.


Same here, and I have been thinking about it, it would be good to have one even without Brexit, just not sure how to go about it?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby canard67 on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 3:17 pm

Not happy with the white paper at all. No 617 sqn revisiting the Mohne dam , Royal Engineers not tasked with demolition of channel tunnel. Lastly no mention of negotiating the same status as Guam with nice Mr Trump.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CMS on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 5:10 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The notion of Brexit is idiocy. We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them. I don't recall the public being told that companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork, face crippling tariffs or farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin. All the public were told about, and all they cared about was closing the borders, kicking out foreigners, stopping more foreigners coming in, lies about money for the NHS and "gettin are country back, innit". The issues involved are far too complex and much too far-reaching for a simple plebiscite or referendum to decide. We let people you'd not trust to tell the time correctly vote on the future of the country. Madness. The "result" should be ignored, the vote made void and politicians get on with what they should do - make this country work for the good of its people.

Those who campaigned to leave, such as those snakes Arron Banks and Nigel Farage, if it is found that they were indeed in cahoots with Moscow, they must be tried for treason and jailed for a very, very long time.

And if the Tories or Labour won't have the balls to stand up and turn this mess around, perhaps a new Remain party needs to stand, on the promise that it will throw this Brexit nonsense out of the window. My suspicion is that the traditional parties are terrified of losing the vote of the "52%", or that the knuckle-dragging Gammons among them will riot on the streets. Sod that, bugger the consequences - just stop this madness.


Well said Dan :clap: :clap:
CMS

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby speedbird2639 on Fri 13 Jul 2018, 7:11 pm

Its going to be a 'Brexit in name only' but what did we expect with a self confessed Remainer PM overseeing it? So the Remainers won't be happy because technically we've left and the Brexiteers won't be happy because it will be the softest of soft Brexit's when they voted to blow up the tunnel and ban chios being called french Fries.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:33 am

speedbird2639 wrote: Brexiteers ... voted to blow up the tunnel and ban chios being called french Fries.


It’s been two years, but I don’t recall having that option on the ballot paper.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Blippie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 9:39 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The notion of Brexit is idiocy. We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them. I don't recall the public being told that companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork, face crippling tariffs or farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin. All the public were told about, and all they cared about was closing the borders, kicking out foreigners, stopping more foreigners coming in, lies about money for the NHS and "gettin are country back, innit". The issues involved are far too complex and much too far-reaching for a simple plebiscite or referendum to decide. We let people you'd not trust to tell the time correctly vote on the future of the country. Madness. The "result" should be ignored, the vote made void and politicians get on with what they should do - make this country work for the good of its people.

Those who campaigned to leave, such as those snakes Arron Banks and Nigel Farage, if it is found that they were indeed in cahoots with Moscow, they must be tried for treason and jailed for a very, very long time.

And if the Tories or Labour won't have the balls to stand up and turn this mess around, perhaps a new Remain party needs to stand, on the promise that it will throw this Brexit nonsense out of the window. My suspicion is that the traditional parties are terrified of losing the vote of the "52%", or that the knuckle-dragging Gammons among them will riot on the streets. Sod that, bugger the consequences - just stop this madness.


Here, here!

:clap:

Cheers

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 9:52 am

That's all very well, but the people voted to end free movement, to escape the EC of HR, and to take back control of our money, ie to stop paying vast amount's to the EU etc. How do we get past that?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 10:52 am

AlexC wrote:That's all very well, but the people voted to end free movement, to escape the EC of HR, and to take back control of our money, ie to stop paying vast amount's to the EU etc. How do we get past that?


By ignoring thick gammon like that for the greater good of the country.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ArabJazzie on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 11:42 am

I have not gone as far as looking at the white paper and can only comment on what I've seen in the news, but its not the Brexit i want!

If this was voted on just now, i really dont think there would be enough people interested to see a proper representation of what our Union of Nation wants. As someone who cant be trusted to tell the time correctly, i think the EU we have today is not the Common Market that we joined, ie one that helped each country trade with the other. What it has evolved into is just a step away from every member country effectively becoming a local council. Although i now think our very own Westminster Government is no longer fit for purpose, i would rather it is UK politicians that are making bad decisions for our country than someone in Brussels whos interest is more for their country than ours.

I firmly believe we should be part of a Common Market and migration should be limited. I dont know how accurate the website i have looked at is, but our population has increased by 319k which is more than double the next country that is Germany! With many countries in the negative, i can only assume that they all come here and take on work that supposedly no Brits want to do. Money ends up going out in subsidies and the migrants supporting their families back home!

And yes i am an SNP Independence voting Brexiteer! That doesnt mean i am happy with the SNP on this and a couple of other matters up here!
Arabest,
Geoff.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:43 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The notion of Brexit is idiocy. We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them. I don't recall the public being told that companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork, face crippling tariffs or farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin. All the public were told about, and all they cared about was closing the borders, kicking out foreigners, stopping more foreigners coming in, lies about money for the NHS and "gettin are country back, innit". The issues involved are far too complex and much too far-reaching for a simple plebiscite or referendum to decide. We let people you'd not trust to tell the time correctly vote on the future of the country. Madness. The "result" should be ignored, the vote made void and politicians get on with what they should do - make this country work for the good of its people.

Those who campaigned to leave, such as those snakes Arron Banks and Nigel Farage, if it is found that they were indeed in cahoots with Moscow, they must be tried for treason and jailed for a very, very long time.

And if the Tories or Labour won't have the balls to stand up and turn this mess around, perhaps a new Remain party needs to stand, on the promise that it will throw this Brexit nonsense out of the window. My suspicion is that the traditional parties are terrified of losing the vote of the "52%", or that the knuckle-dragging Gammons among them will riot on the streets. Sod that, bugger the consequences - just stop this madness.


Well, that's quite an emotional post but unfortunately it's strewn with errors and misinformation. Here are a few points to introduce a bit of balance.

The notion of Brexit is idiocy. : That's just opinion but everyone is entitled to one. Thank goodness we live in a country with free speech.
We are a European nation, we need Europe just as much as we need them. : Your sentence doesn't make sense but we do live on the European tectonic plate and it doesn't hurt to be friendly with your neighbours.
...companies wishing to trade with Europe would need to file mountains of paperwork : Not true. My company trades with the EU, Switzerland, USA, China, etc, etc and each has different processes but it doesn't stop or even hinder trade. Getting things stuck in customs for a few days isn't ideal but you usually plan for that. Economically high tariffs are usually counter productive but its swings and roundabouts. My preference is global free trade and common regulation but that doesn't necessarily mean the EU and it isn't necessarily in the UK's intersts for strategic industries.
face crippling tariffs : That is a choice the UK will have after leaving the EU. One option is a mutual free trade agreement but that is a choice for both sides. Also, tariffs can be set up for a zero sum game and then subsidies given to those that lose out.
farmers have their EU subsidies cut, driving them to ruin : That's a choice for govt. If security of food supply is deemed important then UK farmers can be subsidised by the UK govt from UK taxes. If not, taxes can be spent elsewhere. That's a choice you can only make if you're in control of all tax expenditure. Incidentally, the theory behind free trade is Darwinian in that poor business doesn't survive which raises the average level. If you are subsidising it, it is inefficient and you have to have a good reason to prop it up.

The rest of your post is most disturbing. What you describe is an autocracy very similar to the Chinese system. This is all well and good if the people at the top are doing things in your interest but what happens if someone less scrupulous achieves the top position? What if they aren't very bright and start doing stupid stuff? Many bright people aren't as bright as you think when cross examined. In my experience, the skill set for getting to a top position is influence, persuasion and public speaking rather than decision making ability. Are you suggesting that the UK should turn its back on democracy? Scientifically, the one system that consistently works better than any other is the median solution of a normal distribution and it usually beats experts in their field. Democracy, while not ideal, most closely replicates this.

There are obviously two sides of this argument but ask yourself, who has the most to gain from one system or another and what are they trying to achieve? Does one system or another benefit the average UK citizen? What is the average citizen? Is it you or do you think you're above average?

Finally, we had four decades of being a member of the EU. There should be reams of evidence for the benefits. Can you quantify some with facts and figures?

As for May's white paper. My opinion. Garbage.
Last edited by verreli on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
verreli

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby CJS on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 5:48 pm

Tommy wrote:
speedbird2639 wrote: Brexiteers ... voted to blow up the tunnel and ban chios being called french Fries.


It’s been two years, but I don’t recall having that option on the ballot paper.


Nope it was definitely there Tom...
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby tankbuster on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 6:58 pm

verreli wrote: Finally, we had four decades of being a member of the EU. There should be reams of evidence for the benefits. Can you quantify some with facts and figures?

As for May's white paper. My opinion. Garbage.


I can see one benefit very clearly, we were doing alright, we had had, relatively' strong and stable governments for 45 years. Now we are a shambles and a laughing stock. As a remainer I concede that although I don't think so, that we might have been OK if we had made a clean break and walked away quickly and efficiently.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby pbeardmore on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 7:09 pm

The only consistant line running through May's handling of Brexit is the wish to stay in power (and that includes the Chequers paper) by upsetting as few people as possible. The result is the worst of all Worlds with everyone failing to understand exactly what she stands for. She has no vision, imaginatiion or spine. She has failed at every level.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 7:24 pm

pbeardmore wrote:The only consistant line running through May's handling of Brexit is the wish to stay in power (and that includes the Chequers paper) by upsetting as few people as possible. The result is the worst of all Worlds with everyone failing to understand exactly what she stands for. She has no vision, imaginatiion or spine. She has failed at every level.


Yes. She's shown lack of judgement and always seems to take advice from the wrong people. When she was home secretary she was lauded because it's a tough job and she lasted longer than many. I think this was because she has a knack of not rocking the boat which was perfect for the civil service but doesn't actually make anything better.
verreli

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby verreli on Sat 14 Jul 2018, 7:50 pm

tankbuster wrote:I can see one benefit very clearly, we were doing alright, we had had, relatively' strong and stable governments for 45 years. Now we are a shambles and a laughing stock.


I guess by 'doing alright' you're referring, without data, to the economy. Take a look at historic GDP data, strip away population growth and compare with other developed economies. What it shows is that contrary to the rhetoric, the EU has been a drag on the UK economy but don't take my opinion, look for yourself. Obviously that doesn't mean big changes to your quality of life but what it does mean is that everyone would be just a little bit better off without it.

Strong and stable government... Why wouldn't that have been the case without the EU? NATO has kept peace in Europe and each national government has done its individual thing. i.e there is no evidence for what you suggest because the EU isn't a nation...Yet.

Shambles and a laughing stock. That's temporary to be replaced with something else in the future.

Again, ask yourself...Who is this benefiting?
verreli

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