Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:35 am

:roll:

I thought you "gave up"?
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:38 am

Tommy wrote::roll:

I thought you "gave up"?


How can I when it’s just getting interesting :)

And I’m bored on a train to Dat London.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 2:25 pm

ericbee123 wrote:How will the USA be able to trade if they are not in the WTO? Because Remainers say that would be a massive problem. Apparently not for the USA ( and not for the U.K.if the truth be told ).

The United States is not in the largest single market in the world, and will therefore not have to replace/adjust anything like the proportion of trade (not to mention everything else, from security databases to customs staff and new infrastructure, and even citizens rights etc) that we will. They also have existing trade deals in place with other countries besides the WTO - something we will not have, if we leave with no deal.
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 3:13 pm

So you are saying the USA will only be able to deal with people they have a trade deal with if they pull out of the WTO ?

Surely it means they can still import what they want from where they want, but can slap any old import duty on it they like as the WTO won’t be able to do anything about it.

We are least saying we will play by the rules and won’t exceed WTO import tariffs and will play by the Most Favoured Nation rules. That doesn’t need anyone to acccept a deal from us for us to import from them as long as we stick to WTO rules. If we chose not to put import duty on medicines from the EU without a trade deal we would have to not put any import duty on any other countries medicine imports as the EU import duty we chose would be the Most Favoured Nation price for medicines, until we did a deal with the EU then it would revert back to being the WTO maximum for everyone else. If we wanted.

The USA is saying “we won’t be governed by any WTO maximum - doesn’t stop them charging less if they wanted. Doesn’t stop them importing. Doesn’t stop them exporting if a country wants their export.

Edit - sorry the third paragraph is a bit hard to scan. It does make sense. Just. Not changing it in case someone posts in the meantime and accuses me of changing the meaning.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 3:36 pm

ericbee123 wrote:So you are saying the USA will only be able to deal with people they have a trade deal with if they pull out of the WTO?

No. I'm saying the number of countries that the US deals with on WTO terms isn't all of them, like it would be for us if we leave with no deal, because they have existing trade deals in place, which we don't. Our trade deals are all covered with our EU membership - 34 trade deals covering 60 other countries on top of the single market and EU 27. We leave them all. As well as all of the other relations with our closest neighbours.

As I also said, even if the US leave the WTO, leaving the WTO won't affect everything their entire country has been built on for the last four decades like it does for us leaving the EU. Finances, banks, driving licences, medicine, scientific research, insurance, companies investing here because of single market access etc, etc, etc. There is no comparison to the US leaving WTO and us leaving the EU, because trade is only one facet of what we are leaving.
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 4:02 pm

ericbee123 wrote:Edit - sorry the third paragraph is a bit hard to scan. It does make sense. Just. Not changing it in case someone posts in the meantime and accuses me of changing the meaning.


Well, to me, the logical thing would be to think about what you want to say and how you want to say it, and read what you have written *before* pressing the "submit" button. Rather than posting in an inarticulate way.

There's too much stuff posted here recently, a lot of which I either disagree with or want to question, for me to respond to. Your middle paragraph seems to be correct in principle. In an indirect way. I think you're mixing it up a bit. It's not a case of the UK "playing by" the most favoured nation rule. It's a case that we must. Because, as I pretty extensively described, if we don't we leave ourselves open to lots of trade disputes from any WTO member state that feels aggrieved in the world.

The most favoured nation rule is simply that if we decide to lower our tariff on a particular item with a particular WTO member, without a trade deal, we must lower it for *all* WTO members. There are no "most favoured nation prices" per se, though I see what you mean when you say that. The WTO is set up to ensure pretty hardline fairness and equality of trade, and is set up to encourage discussion and trade deals. It's literal purpose is to persuade countries to negotiate with each other and make trade deals in a fair and uniform way. It's a code that everyone knows, its standard from nation to nation, it points nations on the right path, and it's an important forum for any dispute resolution.

What Trump proposes is, I suspect, and subject to research, bad in a lot of ways. It would probably take another essay from me to explain that, which ehh... as boring as they are to you lot to read them (though necessary if you want to argue about it) they're pretty tiresome to write, too.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Tommy on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 4:28 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:Off the top of my head;

We'll be able to make our own immigration law, tax law, adopt our own regulatory standards, we'll be free to make independent trade deals and we will be free of a much larger government which must necessarily reduce bureaucracy.


Immigration you just said was irrelevant? In any event, the UK always had control over EU migration, our politicians just never exercised that control because they knew that the truth of the matter is that EU migration was actually pretty beneficial to the UK. But fair enough, if you want more controls, that's legitimate. I think you're wrong for wanting more controls, but it's a legitimate thing for you, personally, to want. But what happens when we get them? The best indicator of future success is past performance. Our government hasn't really done much with the controls it currently has, even with all the Daily Mail frenzy whipped up over the last couple of years, so do you think it will really do anything worthwhile with any extra ones?

Tax law; that's also interesting - which taxes? How will they change, and upon what do you base your beliefs that (assuming you're hoping for lower taxes after we leave) the UK government will lower the taxes for us? Rather than keep them as they are for us, and just pocket the difference themselves and, likely, spend it on something big and shiny and poorly-thought, and useless?

MiG_Eater wrote:I say all of this in theory - because it's plain to see, as it was from before the referendum was even announced - that the UK will not be leaving the EU. Maybe we will leave our seat at the table, and perhaps our name won't be on the books anymore, but no British politician of any serious rank would ever dare to do something as brave as to actually attempt to take us out of the union.


One presumes, then, given the UK government's pretty crappy action so far (I think that's undisputed?), that you're frustrated with Brexit, too?

Remember, guys, you don't have to be absolute. There are plenty of things about the EU I dislike, for instance. Junker being one of them - that smug arse. I don't really love the EU in the same way I don't really love the DVLA. I just enjoy what having a driving licence enables me to do.

It's also a perfectly valid point to say "I want to leave the EU, but I want to do it carefully, properly, and ensuring that we will be better off than we were inside it. Rather than a two-year patriotic puff and rush-job, of which we have about six months left, that leaves us struggling, no longer part of a trading bloc, and yet still having to accept and continue to follow their rules".
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 6:02 pm

Hmmmm.

The government could have stalled a couple of years before rushing into Article 50 until we had sorted out a few things.

I got the feeling the EU were as much to blame, by not talking about Brexit until we had invoked Article 50, as the U.K. government was, seemingly scared that delaying invoking Article 50 would cause a major upset in England.

But.

We are where we are !

I voted Remain, am not pro-Brexit, but, am tired of the EU bullying us into invoking Article 50, Junkers attitude in general and other Remain voters sowing ludicrous fear stories.

Now some moan about things that we shouldn’t have needed to change if we had remained - that’s irrelevant we are leaving.

Then some just call people who voted Leave, thick nuckle draggers and racists - but 50% of the U.K. are racist ? Come on.

If Junkers and the EU had given Cameron one concession that he asked for, I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t be where we are today.

The EU has treated the U.K. with disdain and I as a remain voter and a regular visitor to the EU, (with an Irish granddad and a Danish granddad and access to both EU passports if I wanted) am not currently happy with the EU since the Brexit vote. Which I voted REMAIN in.

I also believe the U.K. is NOT leaving the EU. The official line will be we tried, but it was too difficult. Another referendum will happen, that is designed to dilute the leave vote ( if they’ve not been ground down enough with negative stories for 2 years ) and we will remain.

I think that is now a crying shame as I now think the EU stinks worse than Westminster.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:16 pm

Brevet.. Meh !!
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:20 pm

"Project fear" etc :surrender:
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 2:48 pm

And I missed out the bits about UK goods possibly having to be re-tested to comply with EU regulations, or that the recently binned ( thanks to EU regulations ) telephone roaming charges being re-introduced in the UK. :biggrin:
Brevet.. Meh !!
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 3:13 pm

So 'if' there is no deal you 'may' have to spend £11.00 and 10 minutes at a post office to get your IDP's before you can drive in Europe and your passport has to have 6 months (as it has to for most other countries that UK holiday makers visit on a regular basis) on it instead of 3. And UK mobile operators 'may' choose to re-introduce data roaming charges even though 2 of them have already pledged not to so the others will probably follow suit to avoid the negative publicity.

Don't have a clue about testing products so can't comment on how much that will affect us but seeing as i can't really find anymore detail other than it doesn't include certain sectors I'm guessing it may not be such a big deal.

Mountains and molehills springs to mind.
starbuck

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 3:19 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:..and HMG are looking at plans to waste billions...


That just sums up the whole Brexit phenomenon doesn't it?
its time to kick the tyres and light the fires

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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 3:28 pm

Tommy wrote:EU migration was actually pretty beneficial to the UK.


EU migration has been 'pretty beneficial' because EU migrant's are prepared to do unskilled work such as fruit picking, waitressing etc. which British people in general just will not do, perhaps preferring to live on benefits rather then working? It also needs to be said however that many EU migrants are carrying out highly skilled work such as my Polish lady dentist who is excellent, and I wouldn't want anyone else, although it costs me a small (not so small actually!) fortune!
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 3:41 pm

Can we please drop this common misconception that British people won't pick Strawberries? They will, just not for the wages that UK farmers can get away with paying. And they probably won't want to live in an old mobile home in the corner of a field somewhere with no decent toilets or washing facilities and go to the local supermarket in a clapped out double-decker bus for their weekly shop.
starbuck

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby ericbee123 on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 4:17 pm

WHAT COUNTRIES REQUIRE AN INTERNATIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE?

While it is always a good idea to obtain an IDL before driving overseas, there are some countries in Europe that legally require you to carry the document. Here's a list of countries that require an International Driver's License:

Austria
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Croatia
Greece
Hungary
Italy
Poland
Romania
Slovenia
Spain


These are the EU countries that require USA driving licence ( license! ) holders to carry an International Driving Licence.

So after Brexit , France and Germany will accept USA driving licences without an International Driving Licence but MAY require U.K. driving licemcse holders ( with an EU style driving licence ) to carry International Driving Licences. That seems harsh on the U.K. if they do ( which they won’t - BTW ).
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby Paul_Reflex on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 5:28 pm

starbuck wrote:Can we please drop this common misconception that British people won't pick Strawberries? They will, just not for the wages that UK farmers can get away with paying. And they probably won't want to live in an old mobile home in the corner of a field somewhere with no decent toilets or washing facilities and go to the local supermarket in a clapped out double-decker bus for their weekly shop.


So they won't then, unless we can persuade our supermarkets to change their appaling business practices with respect to purchasing. Then perhaps they would pay British farmers sufficiently to cover a living wage and decent conditions for seasonal labour.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby parsley on Thu 13 Sep 2018, 7:28 pm

starbuck wrote:So 'if' there is no deal you 'may' have to spend £11.00 and 10 minutes at a post office to get your IDP's before you can drive in Europe and your passport has to have 6 months (as it has to for most other countries that UK holiday makers visit on a regular basis) on it instead of 3. And UK mobile operators 'may' choose to re-introduce data roaming charges even though 2 of them have already pledged not to so the others will probably follow suit to avoid the negative publicity.

Don't have a clue about testing products so can't comment on how much that will affect us but seeing as i can't really find anymore detail other than it doesn't include certain sectors I'm guessing it may not be such a big deal.

Mountains and molehills springs to mind.


With regards to having to retest and recertify products we want to sell to the EU,well the issue is no one knows for sure what might happen there yet..nothing has been agreed...if you want to know what might have to be recertified just look at any UK produced object you own which has CE markings on it.. the CE mark indicates conformity with EU health,safety and environmental protection standards.. ..had the current government actually spent more time sorting out Brexit and it's issues rather than fighting amongst themselves for the last 2 years or setting up little elitist groups like Lord Snooty and his pals have done with the ERG we might be in a better position to know.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby AlexC on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 9:46 am

starbuck wrote:Can we please drop this common misconception that British people won't pick Strawberries?


I really don't think that the evidence bears that out.
Pte. Aubrey Gerald Harmer, R. Suss. R. (att. to the Sherwood Foresters) KIA 26/9/1917 Polygon Wood, aged 19, NKG. RIP
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 10:18 am

Paul_Reflex wrote:
starbuck wrote:Can we please drop this common misconception that British people won't pick Strawberries? They will, just not for the wages that UK farmers can get away with paying. And they probably won't want to live in an old mobile home in the corner of a field somewhere with no decent toilets or washing facilities and go to the local supermarket in a clapped out double-decker bus for their weekly shop.


So they won't then, unless we can persuade our supermarkets to change their appaling business practices with respect to purchasing. Then perhaps they would pay British farmers sufficiently to cover a living wage and decent conditions for seasonal labour.


This is such a can of worms, but putting aside the social acceptability of doing a decent working class job for a long time - it's simply a question of the labour market.

Politicians have, for years, been doing all they can to flood the labour market with as many people as possible so that the power lies with the large businesses.
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 10:44 am

parsley wrote:
starbuck wrote:So 'if' there is no deal you 'may' have to spend £11.00 and 10 minutes at a post office to get your IDP's before you can drive in Europe and your passport has to have 6 months (as it has to for most other countries that UK holiday makers visit on a regular basis) on it instead of 3. And UK mobile operators 'may' choose to re-introduce data roaming charges even though 2 of them have already pledged not to so the others will probably follow suit to avoid the negative publicity.

Don't have a clue about testing products so can't comment on how much that will affect us but seeing as i can't really find anymore detail other than it doesn't include certain sectors I'm guessing it may not be such a big deal.

Mountains and molehills springs to mind.


With regards to having to retest and recertify products we want to sell to the EU,well the issue is no one knows for sure what might happen there yet..nothing has been agreed...if you want to know what might have to be recertified just look at any UK produced object you own which has CE markings on it.. the CE mark indicates conformity with EU health,safety and environmental protection standards.. ..had the current government actually spent more time sorting out Brexit and it's issues rather than fighting amongst themselves for the last 2 years or setting up little elitist groups like Lord Snooty and his pals have done with the ERG we might be in a better position to know.


Why would we have to re-certify anything with a CE mark on it? If we are already producing goods and putting CE marks on them why would us being out of the EU change that? Our process of testing and manufacture that is good enough now will be good enough after we leave, we would just become the same as any other importer of goods into the EU like Chinese or American companies that are currently manufacturing and putting CE marks on their goods bound for Europe. Added to which the onus is on the importing EU country to insure the goods they are buying has the CE mark on it.
starbuck

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby boff180 on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 11:25 am

starbuck wrote:Why would we have to re-certify anything with a CE mark on it? If we are already producing goods and putting CE marks on them why would us being out of the EU change that? Our process of testing and manufacture that is good enough now will be good enough after we leave, we would just become the same as any other importer of goods into the EU like Chinese or American companies that are currently manufacturing and putting CE marks on their goods bound for Europe. Added to which the onus is on the importing EU country to insure the goods they are buying has the CE mark on it.


Because, technically, those CE marks will no-longer be valid and will require re-certification. Remember our certifications right now are as a member of the EU, not as an importer into the EU (which is different paperwork, approvals.etc.etc)... the moment we leave (without an agreement) anything EU-wise will become null and void.
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Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby starbuck on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 12:06 pm

boff180 wrote:
starbuck wrote:Why would we have to re-certify anything with a CE mark on it? If we are already producing goods and putting CE marks on them why would us being out of the EU change that? Our process of testing and manufacture that is good enough now will be good enough after we leave, we would just become the same as any other importer of goods into the EU like Chinese or American companies that are currently manufacturing and putting CE marks on their goods bound for Europe. Added to which the onus is on the importing EU country to insure the goods they are buying has the CE mark on it.


Because, technically, those CE marks will no-longer be valid and will require re-certification. Remember our certifications right now are as a member of the EU, not as an importer into the EU (which is different paperwork, approvals.etc.etc)... the moment we leave (without an agreement) anything EU-wise will become null and void.


Technically that is of course correct and I accept that there will be changes as we become an importer rather than a distributor but practically we will be the same, what we produce and how we produce it will be worthy of the CE mark after we leave just as much as it is now. This is a good example of why I think a deal will be done, if we don't it will be a ball ache for the UK manufacturer to change status to become an importer and set up authorised representatives within the EU but it will also be just as much of a ball ache for the French & German companies that are reliant on our products manufactured here in the UK for their own success as they will have to take on the additional responsibility of an importer and ensuring our products conform. Nobody wins.
starbuck

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby MiG_Eater on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 12:42 pm

Nobody wins?

It's almost like the EU are trying to punish us...
MiG_Eater

Re: Is anybody happy with the Brexit white paper?

Postby parsley on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 3:05 pm

MiG_Eater wrote:Nobody wins?

It's almost like the EU are trying to punish us...


Well the EU have been clear from the word go....without a deal in place (while members of the ERG and the Daily Mail online readership continue screaming no deal) then all legislaltion the UK is party to through the auspice of the EU becomes null and void for us after Brexit - so we either have to strike some form of port across deal so the EU accepts all our standards or alternatively start everything again from the ground up...if the no dealers get their way then it'll likely be a quiet day at Heathrow on the 30th March
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