What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby AndyBeau on Thu 28 May 2009, 1:27 am

In relation to a post in Modern Mil...

IanH wrote:
AndyBeau wrote:
IanH wrote:
Shame its not flying low through an LFA as you`d get more comments. :whistle:

Very true Ian!!! :clap: :grin: I wonder if it's even worth posting any pictures on this board anymore.

Pleased to hear I am not alone in feeling this Andy. Seems many feel like this but not too many say it. Spend time sorting them out and then ignored unless...... :whistle: A quality shot is a quality shot but it seems it doesn`t come easy to say this for some. It seems some feel they can only comment if its a friend, someone who goes in the hills, its from their local etc etc. The great opportunity with sites like this is that it can motivate, inspire, throw up different angles that may be one hasn`t thought of etc etc etc. The responsibility for everyone in this respect is to be even handed. This chap has put on an Aussie C-17 that next to nobody has seen, shot it well and nobody has commented. Some people could post the inside of my shed on here and it will be the best 'inside of my shed they have ever seen'. It is a tad frustrating and beginning to become very boring. To be honest, I am getting tired of all the same shots from the hills on the same day from countless people and then all the same people commenting on them and ignoring every other post on here. I respect everyone who goes to great lengths to take such photos but its not the only form of aircraft photography and I for one respect those more who take themselves off to Japan for example to shoot. What is going on! They then return, presumably excited post their shots and guess what....largely ignored again. Just occasionally, it would be nice if some of those who accept the plaudits offer a few in return to someone like this chap. I couldn`t believe it the other day when Tony O was apologising for taking a photo 'DSO'. Mine of the same Herc just slipped away. Why bother posting! Keep shooting my friend.
How about a seperate lowfly section on UKAR?


We are not the only ones Ian. I just wrote out a massive post then I clicked the wrong button and lost it!!! Too much Guinness at the pub I think whilst watching that sorry excuse of a football match this evening.

Anyway - let me start again.

This board has gone down the tubes in recent months if not in the last year (or two!). There seems (to me) to be absolutely no enthusiasm towards this hobby anymore, apart from RIAT it seems. There have been some really good photos that seem to go unnoticed and that is not fair on the folks that put the effort to share with the rest of us. As Ian said above, a quality shot is a quality shot and deserves a "nice pic mate" post the same as every other person on here. What has happened folks? Lets get everyones opinion on this. I'm damn sure this isn't only felt by a small minority of members.

Now, is it down to seeing the same thing over and over again? Are members really getting bored of what they are seeing here? I do wonder if that is the case and the reason that some members will actively seek to try out new places and go all over the globe to get something "different." It also seems that most folk don't bother to sit outside airfields anymore or they don't post their photos anymore? I'll admit, we all have day jobs and families etc and can't be on here every minute of the day replying to every thread but the amount of posts have significantly dropped to the level where it is very noticeable. I'm keen to get the memberships opinion on the matter.

There have been many issues aired on this board in recent months that have been detrimental to the board - once regular posters no longer post anything on here which is a big loss to the readership in my opinion. I know the staff are aware of some of the issues and are actively looking at ways to improve the readers experience. However, this doesn't solely affect UKAR but most aviation forums that I frequent on a day today basis. How about we collate our CONSTRUCTIVE opinions on the matter and ASK the powers that be what WE would like to see happen on UKAR. What are YOUR ideas on improving the board? What would YOU like to see on here?

I have my personal opinions on what I would like to see but I will post them later.

If the Mods will allow it, I now open the floor to the UKAR membership.
Lets hear your opinions folks - this is your opportunity to voice your opinion.

Please note - I am damn sure the staff will not allow this thread to go on if it decends into "mod bashing." In some recent incidents I think it was/is warranted but I think we need to look past that and generally look at how to improve the board as a whole and get some more interaction between the membership and that includes the staff, they were once regular members after all... :handbag:

Over to you...
Last edited by AndyBeau on Thu 28 May 2009, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby boff180 on Thu 28 May 2009, 5:47 am

Well maybe a bit of context; if people read the Aussie C-17 departs thread they'll know why this thread has been created (after a message from a Mod asking for a thread to be created).

To be honest, how to revamp the photo threads???? My idea probably won't be liked.

A number of threads have recently centred around a single aircraft or low level; one thing these threads have in common is there are multiple photos of the same aircraft; often taken on the same pass. Some posts have lots of shots in it and to be honest, if the thread takes too long to load, I close it when the photos are half downloaded (I have the max speed BroadBand available in my area without using Virgin). Recently with alot of Uni work.etc, I cannot spend the time waiting for photos to download when quickly checking the forums. I think this applies to a number of people on here; they just don't have the time to post on many threads, especially when a number of threads have alot of photos in them.

With the exception of multi-day events such as airshows with arrivals days and show days such as Waddington, RIAT and Leuchars I would propose these rules for the photography section.

Most Situations
1 - Maximum of 6 photo's per thread.
2 - Maximum of 1 photo per individual aircraft (based on serial number, not type).

Airshow's and multi-day events such as RIAT
1 - A single thread should be created for the entire length of the event and added to with updates.
2 - Maximum of 6 photo's per post and per day of the event. (i.e. A mach3 FRIATer could make 6 posts in one thread totalling 36 photos).
3 - Maximum of 1 photo per individual aircraft (serial) per day of the event.

This would encourage the poster to put up their very best shots from an event instead of posting everything they have taken. It would also speed up the viewing of threads by other people and allow them to make more posts.

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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby A380FWWOW on Thu 28 May 2009, 5:52 am

How amazing, a thread with this title that already has 50+ views and nobody has bothered to even make a comment. I suppose that really sums up one of the big problems with this Forum at the moment, too many people who might actually appreciate the work done by others but can not be bothered to click the botton 'Post Reply'.
How this forum has changed over the last 2 years really amazes me, there used to be loads of interaction between members in normal threads, some great feedback on photo threads and there was always friendly banter between the members.

What have we now, is a board where it appears that many members feel they are to good to post on Photo threads rather than giving constructive feedback to members, a board where there are distinctive groups of members who make comments on each others shots but can not be bothered with the other members shots (and this does include the Board Moderators)! And we have a distinctive group of younger members who we actually need to encourage and help them develop their hobby in both aircraft and photography.

I really think that the lack of comments and feedback when somebody has taken the time and made the effort to share the results of a day out is actually quite rude! However I think the current situation actually rubs off on all of us and we all stop posting the Great Shots messages that encourage members.

What can we all do to help change this?
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Manonthefence on Thu 28 May 2009, 6:02 am

Oh do stop whining :grin:

It happens to all of us, we work on pictures put them up then no comments. Its life. More sub forums may means that YOUR shots stay nearer to the top than before, but it also waters down the forum and makes it harder to see what you need. Then you need to define low fly (because someone will still not understand it)

What UKAR does need is the rules it already has in place enforcing. I would suggest that new members go through a probation period where
1. They can only post so much in a period of time (once every 5 minutes for instance)
2. All of their posts are moderated.
While this would increase the workload of the mods it would also let people know that there are rules when posting (txt speak etc) and stop spammers. Its a fine line between enforcing a lose set of posting rules and dictating to the members what and how they should post (there are forums out there that do this, I for one avoid these).

As for pictures, well the airshows section does get swamped on busy days. But its not a race you can always wait to post. Sometimes this gives more impact. The once thing I really hate are the "xxx number of views and no comments, come on people" posts. If people want to comment then they'll comment. Its all about timing IMHO.

I have to say that the quality of nearly all of the Southend shots was woeful (I think out of all those posted I would have posted 2 of them), however if image standards were brought in then it would become too much like airliners and I am sure no-one wants that. I'm sure some images that are good get missed because you have to wade through reems of chaff to get to them. Then if someone mentions that the image isnt the best and how it can be improved they get shot down in flames for criticising.

In short, get on and post, but remember timing and quality is everything.

Most importantly, its a hobby, its fun. As long as you have enjoyed taking and posting the picture thats all that matters.

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Manonthefence on Thu 28 May 2009, 6:44 am

How amazing, a thread with this title that already has 50+ views and nobody has bothered to even make a comment.

A long and considered post has had 3 long and considered replies within 5 hours when it was started in the middle of the night!

How much more do you want for gods sake!

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby nigelblake on Thu 28 May 2009, 6:47 am

I agree with Manonthefence.
People will comment if moved to do so, irrespective of the subject or location it was taken at. Any rule changing won't make any difference at all.
Overall the forum has a good mix of topics and usually a light-hearted feel to it, no need to fix something that isn't broken!
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby docman on Thu 28 May 2009, 6:55 am

What about a "photo of the month" type competition with a winner from each category and an overall winner. I suspect the UKAR staff would have to judge the posts but it is usually evident when a picture is stunning and unusual? In the winter if "trade is slack" why not have a theme ie aviation at sunset where we can sift through our collections.
Just a thought.

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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby ythanpythan on Thu 28 May 2009, 6:55 am

Reactionary, petty, cliquey and occasionally unfriendly.

Some of the words that sum up my feelings of this forum. Unfortunately I suspect the vast majority of members do not have these traits but a minority do and whilst some of the rants are funny all too often they are driven by personal grievances.

I for one have reduced been put off of posting in the last few months as I don’t like the atmosphere on UKAR (if a virtual forum can have an atmosphere). Hence why I have looked at the thread a few times and considered whether I wish to post on it at all.

I like the idea about limiting the number of pictures someone can post as it would/should encourage people to think carefully about what makes a great photo rather than an average one.


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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby cosmicpop on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:10 am

I totally agree with ythanpythan. I sometimes find this forum to be cliquey and unfriendly so I don't post very often, even though I visit a few times a day. I'm also not a fan of some of the sexist remarks.


Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby PaulB on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:18 am

A working calendar.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Manonthefence on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:26 am

Every single forum on the internet can be accused of being Cliquey. Just ignore what you perceive to be a clique and post on.

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Ruislip Rustler on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:35 am

My ramblings...

Has it become a victim of its own success - is it too popular?

The number of utter drivel about what people would like to see at an airshow (the Yeovilton thread springs to mind). Airshow organisers, I'm quite sure, don't intentionally NOT ask aircraft to attend (grammar?) to get people all worked up. I know from experience which aircraft (exotic or not) Northolt has attempted to book for our various photocalls without success - it's not as easy as some young gun emailing an overseas squadron asking 'Why aren't you flying at our airshow this year?' Like that's going to work... :claypole:

People who don't look before posting. How many 'When does the A380 land/take-off from Heathrow?' threads are there? This also includes those who post the same picture of an aircraft from the same location on the same day as someone who 'must've been stood near me'.

Or moan about the fact that somebody got a picture of a nice aircraft at their local and didn't bother to share their info with the world - it's always been like that. Try and imagine - if you can - what life was like before t'internet and then realise how things have changed.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Bjcc on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:40 am

I do think there should be more constructive comment on photos.

I seem to recall someone a year or so ago, posting some photos, he was obviously young, and to be fair, they weren't good. He was flamed, and the thread disappeared shortly afterwards.

Yes, I could see the reasons why some of the comments were made, but there were positives in some of the pictures, such as compisition and framing, which was on the whole very good, ok, the focus and exposure wasn't. The guy obviously could be a very good photog, if he's been helped, and he wasn't.

On the whole thats not the sort of thing you see on here often, but it does tend to stick in your mind. If I were a beginner, I'd be wary of posting because I'd seen that thread.

I'm not sure that the site needs to change other than that, but maybe the attitude of us who use it does.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Pen Pusher on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:41 am

Ruislip Rustler wrote: Try and imagine - if you can - what life was like before t'internet and then realise how things have changed.

Before t'internet, the only time any one saw one of my photos was if it was published in a model magazine. Now the whole world has instant access to them at any time.

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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby striker on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:43 am

It seems to me some folk should join other forums and see what goes on there. As some of you are aware I probably shoot more motorsport than aviation (at the moment) some photos are posted here and a lot on motorsport/photography forums, POTN, DPreview and Talk Photography to name a few. All of those forums have far more members than UKAR but still threads still suffer from lack of replies.

Now to be honest if I go to a big event, whether it be an airshow or BTCC meeting I can still get pretty bored looking at post after post of the same subjects. You get to know who's photos will be away from the norm and are worth looking at. Call that belonging to a "clique" or not that's up to you, but it's not just this forum that suffers.

In my opinion limiting the number of pics allowed on a thread does not work, both POTN and Talk Photography apply limits which are strictly policed but posts still suffer lack of replies.

People cannot/will not look and comment on every thread of every event, it takes time, can take a while to load depending on your speed or where photos are hosted. As Boff comments, if they are slow to load the I just close that thread and move to another.

What really gets me on here are the threads in Of Topic which seem to go on and on with certain people thinking they are always correct, Mods need to know when to lock these threads quicker IMO.

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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Monty on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:49 am

I have noticed this on the forum, it is very hard to gain replies evn if you have hundreds of views. Of course the more established members ar going to get more comments, mainly because they have more experience, better equipment and are just better photographers, but also because they are people that other members know and like (its only natural t talk more to people you like than don't like) however where i see the problem is with the new members. Take Fightercontrol for instance. A welcoming thread to new members just gone up. A lovely friendly atmosphere, pretty much everybody gets good constructive critisicm, the MOD's take time to post on new members photos etc. What do we do on UKAR? A new member joins and post some pictures he/she is pleased with they get no response, automaically there going to feel a bit put off. They then post a thread enquiring about a local airshow or someething to do with aviation and not only are they berated for lack of spelling etc (especially younger members, and I'm not condoning it just making the point at how this appears to newmembers), then don't get a reply to the original question and are chastised as to find it out yourself etc, this is a pointless thread etc (remember some members have very recently become interested in aviation, might not know all that the more established members do, and after all it is a forum for aviation so therefore peoples questions should be answered to the best of our abilities.) After all of this the thread probably goes off on a tangent and some pointless arguement is started that gets more an more personal. If you were that new member would you want to keep posting? What sort of message does this send to guests who just browse? Do we want UKAR to be seen as an unhelpful, unfriendly soceity? And is this what current members want from the foum? These are questions i feel need answering. Now waits to get slated for post content and/or spelling/grammar and the thread to go off on a tangent into a personnal arguement between several members :roll:
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby rdchawk on Thu 28 May 2009, 7:56 am

A problem I have noticed is more people getting told off for expressing their opinion. I raised this when I got berated for saying I wasn't excited by an Algerian Herc. I said yes it was great to have a new airforce at RIAT but I've seen god knows how many different types of Hercules. Just my opinion, but my back got jumped on for "being ungrateful".
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby tankbuster81 on Thu 28 May 2009, 8:04 am

Hard to sum up a reply,it is without doubt a fantastic site.........but i can see some points, i myself would not put my shots on,knowing they are not as good as the "pro's" who post on here ,although i enjoy there photos,and there are some that can put people off photography for years ,with unhelpful comments i have seen over the years. maybe its got a bit to "elitist"? think thats how you spell it? Apart from that the site is a great resource,and no one should be slated for voicing an opinion as long as it is in context and not vulgar or personal.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby ursa_major on Thu 28 May 2009, 8:15 am

Some of us do still stand by the fenceline all day & photograph the aircraft. However, certainly in my case, I'm aware of both my limitations as a photographer and the limitations imposed by the kit I have, my limited skills with post-processing and time and budget for travel to exotic / unusual locations. I'm absolutely aware that I cannot currently produce images to the standard of those seen on here in terms of either quality or rarity. Instead of posting a thread of yet more Typhoons / E-3s / KingAirs just because I went to one of my local bases (which would up my post count enormously) I only post pics of unusual movements these days, and only then if either it's definitely not run-of-the-mill or I get a really stand-out shot (OK, it'll be the former of these two every time ;) ). It doesn't mean that I don't shoot Typhoons / E-3s / KingAirs any more, I just regard it as practise, and keep the shots on my PC. Photography's a hobby to me, and I'm not the kind of person who only takes his camera out to an airshow or when something unusual is guaranteed to appear.

In terms of comments, on another since deceased forum, I was one who was vocal against the reams of 'nice pics, mate' posts that were seemingly auto-generated by certain users. Whilst the volume of feedback posts may be comforting to some users, the content of the feedback should be more interesting to most photographers. 'Nice pics, mate', whilst encouraging, isn't going to help anyone raise their game. Constructive feedback will help someone improve. Quality, not quantity, is the key. If I post pics and get no comments, I'm happy. It means that the pics are pretty much adequate, there's no glaring problems with them.

Perhaps there should be a rating method? Marks out of 5 for composition, technique, subject and so on?

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Abingdonman on Thu 28 May 2009, 8:49 am

I think its probably too easy to take a good pic with todays equipment,it does it all for you ...and too many cooks! :wink:
but seriously,although I,ve never been an aircraft photographer myself ,I always thought I,d rather watch the aircraft at the time and cant change that ...but really I,m glad people did take it upon themselves to take the pics we can now enjoy,and in the 3 or 4 yrs since I joined I,ve spent a lot of time looking at the pics on here,and it has been great,I guess people want comments for their efforts and feel a bit left out ...
Its different for me If I put up an odd pic,I dont EXPECT any comments! :grin:

also ....I believe anyone should be able to post their opinion on anything in any topic without being sent to Siberia,thats real life ....if its not popular it will out itself....
It wouldnt half be boring if everyone agreed on everything! :wink:
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Ben Montgomery on Thu 28 May 2009, 8:50 am

Police the under 18s? Why, what have we done? (Given I've not been so active on the forum lately, so I've probably missed something!).

Thread limit is a good idea, but 6 is maybe a bit too low? I would say 10 would be better, but stick with the one shot per airframe. This would give allowance for a fantastically busy day of aircraft?

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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby DamienB on Thu 28 May 2009, 9:03 am

This discussion has been generated by someone moaning that record shots of a taxiing transport (with cluttered backdrops for most of the shots) aren't getting the comments that some spectacular vapour-wreathed flying fighter jet shots are getting. Normally I would insert a suitably sarcastic comment like 'Well fancy that!' to end this paragraph but no doubt that would make me cliquey.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Kieran on Thu 28 May 2009, 9:06 am

I think the lack of a friendly atmosphere between members is something I wish that could be improved upon. I know that sometimes new members, who are children, can drive members up the wall with continuous banter about nothing but at least they show enthusiasm for the particular show, something that has been sparsely seen really this past year. Now all we get is, say RIAT for example with a new update, 'Great update but still no star item' or 'Nice but wheres the F22?'. We are in the midst of a reccession here and some members want either more than what a RIAT update gives us or they either complain about the amount of times they've seen that aircraft at RIAT before. Well for those people in the latter, you could at least show consideration for those who have never seen that aircraft before. For example, a few years ago on the RIAT forum, we had an update and the Finnish F-18 was down for flying and someone said it was going to be a pants display, when actually, I thought it was probably one of the best displays of that weekend. I think what we all need to do is to collaborate together in a friendly atmosphere and if someone clearly has bad grammar or sends pointless replies about nothing, instead of being embarrassed by everyone on this forum, why don't we let the MODS pick up on the issue and send the poor chap a private mail instead of being ridiculed by numerous members. I know it's against the forum rules but this is the one of the reasons why we have MODS. Trust me, on the old UKAR forum when I was a bit younger, I didn't want to post hardly anything in case I either got no reply or I would get a sarcy remark that wouldn't boost my confidence at all. I think I've posted two photo topics, one from Southport and one from Cosford, and both times I got no replies. Do you know how off-putting that is? Even if they were cr*p, I would like to know so I could try to improve? People being friendly and helpful instead of being ignorant. I like the idea of what's already been said about the photos but now what I think needs to be done, is for those who think its funny to constantly be sarcastic or those who seem to moan at almost anything, to shut the hell up and make this place a friendly atmosphere where we can all have a laugh and talk about the main subject on this forum, aviation. Not bad grammar. Not the amount of topics, RIAT has. Give some people the benefit of the doubt.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby ostrich74 on Thu 28 May 2009, 9:12 am

As a reasonably new digital user i have been lurking in the back ground here for a few years now, I've posted shots and recieved feedback/comments for them. I view the forums everyday and enjoy the opportunity of being able to see images of shows or happennings i have not been able to see myself.

There is a core of regular posters who have the time, skills, equipment and desire to post image's pretty much daily and one day i hope to be able to produce images of the same standard. However i've noticed of late, a lot of comments seem to be more detrimental than constructive. Common sense would dictate that everyone has different pc's and monitor setups and different colour hues, pixaltion or resoloution issuses could be you not the poster so why bother saying it?

As with most forums, especially ones with a more centralised theme like aviation, there is a tendency for it to produce armchair experts, usually with little or no qualifications or experience to back it up. That is par for the course and putting your work in the publc domian opens you up to praise or criticism and so it should, but lets try to keep it civil. A certain amount of aninimity provided by the www is a great leveler apparently. A lot of the more direct critical comments made on here probably would not be said face to face for fear of reprisals.

I also can't see the point in 5 or 6 images of the same aircraft from different angles in some posts (unless they are outstandingly different) so would agree on a limit of the same airframe images. but don't see a point in limiting the amount of images per post. If you want to look , look.

Perhaps a mandatory image count in the title would be better?

And i will try to post more "nice shot" posts if you all want, most of you don't need to be told though i reckon you know you have good images. But everyone likes a pat on the back now and then . I know i do, so i'll provide a few more.A in i'll actually do it.

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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Rory76 on Thu 28 May 2009, 9:17 am

Excellent idea with the thread.

My tuppence worth of initial thoughts-

Can't say I agree with the restriction on photo numbers, that would mean a lot of great photos getting sat on, unshared.

As far as photo comments go, whatever the quality of the actual image, it is the subject matter that really makes for a great photo. As such good images of aircraft in low fly or display conditions are clearly more likely to attract positive comments. Although I've not really started my aircraft photography hobby yet, my thoughts on sharing would be for that purpose- to allow others to see them, with comments viewed as a bonus, rather than the reason for doing it.

One thing that I was considering raising anyway was the one thread per topic issue. I preface this by saying that, on the whole, I do agree with the policy, however there are times when I think it gets a little overzealously enforced. The extra Vulcan post last night was quite right in stating that 100+ pages is a lot to go through to try and find a specific piece of information. My main suggestion would be to break really long threads down into 'Part 1', 'Part 2' after, say, 10 pages allowing a simpler search of the threads for information.

I did raise this after last year's migration, but would it be possible to get the 'sort posts by topic start date' facility back? It was very useful on the old board, especially when returning after a few days absence- particularly with topics that may have been of limited interest to the wider community and had consequently dropped down the list.

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