What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

[agdickie]

Post of the year

[vtwo]

Yes the banter on the site is good and even though I haven't met any of the actual members, I feel like I know some of the regular posters. I understand why some people say itis not a friendly site - at some points in time, there seem to be more arguments and disagreements between posters than anything else. I just see these as being similar to the disagreements you get between mates in the pub - my opinion this and my opinion that.

The enthusiam of some of the youngsters on the site is infectios - I don't think it would be right to try to curtail this in any way. (No one could call me young by the way.)

As regards the issue about photographs, could it be resolved by creating thumbnails of the pictures which could act as links to the full piccy.They would be quicker to load and the members who are interested could view the pictures they wish to view. I don't know if this would satisfy the photographer community or if the BB software would provide for it, but someone has to ask. It is a technique used on other photography sites.

Cheers,

Tony

[agdickie]

As regards the issue about photographs, could it be resolved by creating thumbnails of the pictures which could act as links to the full piccy.They would be quicker to load and the members who are interested could view the pictures they wish to view. I don't know if this would satisfy the photographer community or if the BB software would provide for it, but someone has to ask. It is a technique used on other photography sites.

The problem i see with that is that it doesn't look very nice and you have to actively click to see the images properly. I much prefer to see the images at their native resolution straight away without having to do anything.

[Ben H]

1

[LN Strike Eagle]

As regards the issue about photographs, could it be resolved by creating thumbnails of the pictures which could act as links to the full piccy.They would be quicker to load and the members who are interested could view the pictures they wish to view. I don't know if this would satisfy the photographer community or if the BB software would provide for it, but someone has to ask. It is a technique used on other photography sites.

The problem i see with that is that it doesn't look very nice and you have to actively click to see the images properly. I much prefer to see the images at their native resolution straight away without having to do anything.

It works a treat on other forums I use, and I've said for a long time that people on here are free to use that method to post larger images than we allow to be hotlinked. Photobucket provides thumbnail code just as easily as it does img code.

[ArabJazzie]

If there is no cliques here, then as someone who is able to self screen my shots on another site, why have i made mention of circles of friends? If my pictures are good enough for elsewhere, why dont they get a similar comment ratio to other threads on here? I dont consider myself to be paranoid, to start with, it was not my own threads i noticed this happening to. I wasnt putting up much pics at the time on here for a multitude of reasons. I know one guy who has a great eye for a good pic but he cant be bothered posting because of what he sees going on here.

I do think people should consider what they want to contribute. I have recently noticed things i like to look at, only to open the thread up and find rubbish! Im glad i missed the mentioned C-9 thread! I see people mention they lurk for a while before posting, i did the same but i would like to think that my 12 pics i got on Airliners and Jet Photos before i found UKAR, helped me find the right track.

As for the class system being talked about, i think that should be buried and never mentioned again! Will cause peoples perception of the apparent cliques on here to intensify and drive us mere mortals away. But that might be what some people want!!!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[tu114cleat]

Seven interesting pages.
Moderators. I think we are all indebted to the Moderators and any "back room boys". Whenever I have sought help the Moderators have been most generous of their time and that means a lot in my book.
New members. Some comments about the work of new members have made me cringe and I feel sure some have been put off making future contributions. I try to make a point of welcoming new people as I beleive encoutagement at an early stage is important to the future of UKAR. As has been said, it has become an unfriendly place for new members.
Cliques. Rather too apparent and a deterrent to new members. Some clearly refute this, fair enough, but if there is a perception of a cliques should not the perception be addressed as though it is a reality?
Character of UKAR. It feels that the character of UKAR changed with the revised funding and large influx of new members. I guess that is just evolutionary and nothing can be done.
Banter.I have always viewed this as positive thing. Difficult for an outsider like me to enter into but thoroughly enjoyable. The banter re "Geoff I don't do numbers" is wonderful. I look forward to meeting you one day Geoff - even though you are half my age.
Photograph?.I enjoy all the pics posted. However, it may be helpful to distinguish between quality and the subject. We have lots of good photographers but if someone has "caught" something special I want to see it regardless of quality.

Whatever you lads decide to do, I will not be leaving UKAR ( unless banned! ).

Robin.

[Wes_Howes]

From my point of view being a comparitive "Noob" as it were. I don't find the forum unwelcoming or unfriendly, it is just difficult to meet other members. I met Lee (FGR2) at Southend on Monday and it was my first encounter with another board member (other than Mike Lewin but I've known him since my ATC days) and I had a great chat with him, discussing forum topics and helping each other out with what settings to use in the changing weather conditions.

A good idea that has popped up in the RIAT threads is the Totterdown Meet 09. Those of us that are camping at that particular site are going to meet and I'm sure sink a few cold ones and have a good natter and that really is what I'm looking for from this site. To meet new, like minded people and have a good laugh in the process. Also perhaps to post some of my efforts and see what people think.

I for one am sick of being ridiculed or questioned by people who don't understand my (our) hobby.

Long live UKAR



and relax

[tu114cleat]

Random.
Sorry, finger trouble again, think I have just proved that I am a
I cannot delete the entry, perhaps a moderator can save my

[Ben H]

No problem sir, I actually thought it was an ironic attempt at replicating some of the 'useless' posts that have been spoken about in this thread. Y'see, you joined in the banter by mistake

[vtwo]

Random.
Sorry, finger trouble again, think I have just proved that I am a
I cannot delete the entry, perhaps a moderator can save my

More happy about that. Thought for a while that I was the first to say something which was falling foul of being an in joke, judging by the number 1 and the subsequent reaction

[Pat Murphy]

Blimey, this morning I had a quick look and there were only a couple of posts on this thread and now look!! What is more it's good to see that the comments are constructive and raise some valid points. My tuppenceworth:

UKAR is still my first point of call for info, gossip and more especially photographs of the day's action whether that be a recording of a rare type i.e the dreaded DSO ( not dreaded in my book. I've taken loads of them over the years ) or a spectacular image from an event or a day out at the local base/airport/mountain. For me it doesn't need much in the way of changing.
Comments on postings: I must admit to sometimes posting up the odd set that has received shall we say less attention than other people's but I don't get upset over it. We all have busy lives and sometimes we just haven't got the time. If you comment fine, I always ask for critique, I want to get better at this hobby. If you don't....thats fine also such is life. I also think that we should all self moderate on quality, think before you post is a valid point.
Cliques: Some know fellow board members in the flesh as it were so if they "talk" to each other on board that's not that surprising surely? Personally I have found the board mebers I have had contact with Dunk, Karl and Steve(61OTU), Graham ( Pikey01)to name a few have been very helpful in the past. I don't know them that well but their assistance has been gratefully received. So I think the clique issue is more one of perception than anything else

As for mods. I have only had one run in with a mod in all the time I have posted here and it was a reasonable request to remove an image that may have caused problems for the individual pilot involved. It's a thankless task as the old addage of not being able to please all of the people all of the time definitely apllies here..
Maybe a bit more transparency would help here. I personally didn't know that Dunk had been banned and the board is probably a bit less entertaining for his absence, just an opinion, my opinion. It would also be interesting to know what he was banned for as I never found any of his posts offensive, provocative at times maybe but we surely don't have a problem with free speech on this board do we?

Positive additions:
I like the idea of anonymously posted competition entries and maybe a further splitting of some of the photography forums to reflect their subject matter especially modern mil maybe along the lines of Days at Bases, LFA's, Unusual Visitors that sort of thing. Maybe Off topic needs a bit of calming down (must admit to airing my views on this section ) I'm sure some type to wind people up but some flaming is occasionally OTT.
I think we all need to remember that for the most part we are more united than divided. After all we all post or have registered ( with the exception of a few spammers) because we share a common interest. Aviation and all of, or some of it's many facets. So lets all relax and enjoy the hobby, watching, photographing or whatever......
Oh and can we have a bang head against wall smilie?

[Ben H]

As a way of bringing the membership together more, how about having designated 'meets' at certain bases/airshows at certain times. I know we already have the superb Northolt Nighshoots and the Kemble enclosure, but how about having little get-togethers every now and again? Maybe a 'lowfly' day, for example?

I have to say, having read all of the posts in this thread, there has not been a single bitchy remark, and all the complaints seem to follow the same tack:

1) Bitchyness - I for one will be trying as hard as possible to refrain from making friendly jibes at some of the newer members just in case they take it badly!
2) Lack of posts on photo threads - I will also take more time to think of a more specific comment than the ubiquitous 'Nice shots mate', for example choosing a favourite shot and explaining why I like it: Composition, lighting, colour, whatever.
3) Cliques - I'm sitting on the fence over this one, as while I recognise that people could see the forum as having little groups who always back-slap and share 'in' jokes, I don't see this as a problem. I myself don't see myself as a member of any particular 'clique' (besides the under-18s lot, but I can't help that!).

When you are in a restaurant, do you sit at your table of four and talk to those sat with you? Of course you do, as no doubt they are the people who you know and like, and have something in common with, be it sense of humour, or more specific interest. You would not be expected to wander around with your plate making small talk with everyone - just because you are all in a restaurant eating food, it doesn't mean that you immidiately share the same hobby of 'eating'. Our interest in aviation has a very diverse array of strings to it's bow, and it is only natural that you tend to have an interest in a few of those areas and interact with those who share the same interests. It is only human nature, and if it is acceptable in 'real life', why do people seem to kick up a fuss when it happens here?

Ben

[agdickie]

I've figured how to solve all our 'problems'...

[Ben H]

Love it!

[agdickie]

Not that i can condone such things...'cause it's far better crumbled in Petit Flous

[Ben H]

Not that i can condone such things...'cause it's far better crumbled in Petit Flous

Too much Irn Bru making you say things you wish you hadn't, Andy?!

[agdickie]

Nothing my Probation Officer doesn't know. Anyhow, enough of my transgressions - back to the subject.

EDIT - UKAR Banter's pulse is strong

[AndyBeau]

Blimey Andy, look what you've done

I know!

First of all I would like to say that having just read all 7 (now 8!)pages I am really chuffed with the responses and the ideas being put forward. This is credit to all the members that have taken the time to put across their thoughts and ideas.

I thought it would be a good opportunity to explain from my point of view why I started this off. Over the last couple of weeks I've been in regular contact with one of the mods and we have had some discussions about the state of the board and he asked for my opinion on certain matters. I have felt that the "atmosphere" on the board took a turn for the worst a few months back and it never seemed to really recover. So, fast forward to last night and after having a few pints down the pub, (yes Al, "Bacardi induced rant" as you put it) I came online to see what was happening and I see Ian's comment which I quoted in my first post. That tipped it over the edge for me and I felt it necessary to bring it up in front of the whole board since this isn't the first time it has been spoken about by members. A lot of people have voiced their frustration on the matter and felt there was no way forward. I think there is.

I will put my 2p's worth towards some of the issues that have been brought up..

Young Members
I think it would be wrong for us to limit young members. Ok, there are some that cause problems but with some tighter moderation and the use of the "report" button that should cure that problem. We have a good bunch of young chaps with an enthusiasm that is unmatched by the older members. Random, OriginalMonty, Macc, MartinNeedham, JumboJet, and there are more, have been a great asset to the site in my opinion. Sometimes they take a little time to settle down but in general I think these chaps have been well mannered and pleasant and we should be encouraging them more, as has already been pointed out they are the future of the board!

Limiting Number of Photos
I don't think this the right way forward for UKAR. I can see the merits of introducing it but the whole point of me joining the board was the freedom to post whatever I wanted.
Also having a two tier system will also take the board down the wrong route. The fact that your photos can be seen amongst some of the best aviation photographers out there was a big deal when I started off. If I went back 4 or 5 years ago and tried to post the same images with the knowledge I know now I would deserve to be ridiculed. However we all started somewhere and I think we sometimes need to step into the beginners’ shoes once in awhile and try and understand again what it is like to start with very little experience.

In that regard I think there is a need to look at how to integrate the photography hints and tips forum a bit more with the photography section. Moving the forum up closer to the photography section would be the first step. Also, a general "how to guide" would help with the basics and will create a good reference to provide better constructive replies. This is an area where the board as a whole could contribute to. A discussion about what they see as a good photograph and create a summary out of that for new members to look at. I think the post processing threads that popped up quite regular in the past would be another excellent reference. We need to have these things fully visible at the top of the photography hints and tips forum.

Off Topic
I think it was Nick who brought this up and I agree with what he said. I think that the staff should re-evaluate the off topic section and maybe look at some of the topics that are discussed. This is an aviation forum after all and I think it is not really the place to be discussing political affiliation and the like. All that has done is cause problems between members which have spilled over into other areas.

Spelling etc
It would be nice for some members to put a bit of thought into their posts but I'm not one to go ranting about spelling and grammar, it was never one of my strongest subjects...

Remember after all, for most of us it’s a hobby. Some folks would do well to bear that in mind. It’s not a competition. The forum should be a source of inspiration to others, not envy.

As for the banter, bring it on!! (you old scrote!!)

A point well made Kev.
I think the banter has fairly dropped off recently but maybe I'm looking in the wrong places??

Perhaps we should change our perspective and things might just fall into place? After all, we share the same hobby and, regardless of our speciality, the same forum. You only get out of something what you put in. Time for us all to step up to the plate and recognise what we've got.

Al, this sums up my feelings nicely. About time we, as members, took some responsibility on what happens around here.

I think one of the main problems with the hobby, is every Tom, * and Harry with a digital camera, thinks he is a photographer, and along with the fact that we see some very good stuff on here, we have been spoilt in what we have seen, and the good/exceptional has become the norm.

I think this is also a very valid point. We have been spoiled and the bar is very much higher than it was only a couple of years ago. Someone else pointed out that maybe the board is a victim of its own success. Another interesting comment made to me on this topic was that sometimes there is nothing wrong with the quality of the photos being posted but that the subject just isn't interesting enough for them to post a comment. Something to ponder I think.

Ok, seeing as the focus of this forum tends to be mainly on photo posting then as a side line to remove the "uniform" thread trawling of pictures how about a little report to go with these great sets of pictures. At least explain whats in them because it does get boring going over and over again a single airshow where people have been photographing all in the same spot. All i would say is put a little bit of personal touch to your threads?

I love to see lots of pictures from an airshow, perhaps because i am unable to make that one, but, pic,pic,pic,pic becomes very "samey". To stand out and do your bit as an individual how about write around your pictures. After all....

This is UK AIRSHOW REVIEW

A great suggestion Gooze and was in line with what I was going to bring up.

I think a good example was the thread about the West Coast C-17 demo team that Mike posted a few days ago:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10328

I thought it was a very interesting post and the photos were nothing out of the ordinary, no offence Mike, but with the words it was refreshing to look at. I think it would certainly add another level if members took the time (some already do!) to write a little about the background to their day and the photos.

Some more general comments

One other point I wanted to raise is that of the board’s affiliation with Aircraft Illustrated and Combat Aircraft Magazines. I would like to see a bit more interaction between Ben/Jamie and their editorial teams and the board. I think we could do better. I know they are extremely busy people but it can be a two way process.
Some initial ideas were:
A small monthly article could be posted on the UKAR website for example?
How about a blog of some sort.
A piece from the pro photographers about a particular experience, with some hints and tips etc.
I’m sure these types of things would be welcome by the majority here. Competitions will always go down well too. Oh, just had another a thought; how about asking Ben and Jamie to judge a yearly or 6 monthly competition where they pick their favourite photos on a given subject and the winner gets their photo printed in the mag??

And finally...

The main point of starting this thread was to bring to the forefront some of the issues that members have been discussing outside of the forum. I think most of us are mature enough that we can talk and discuss the problems and work towards improving the experience of all members, old and new. The intention was not to look at how to get more people to comment in photo threads but just to get ideas on improving the general atmosphere on the board and get a bit more interaction between members. It has been a bit stale around here lately and I generally think that the dismal weather that has affected the last two airshow seasons have frustrated the majority of members, me being one of them.

I also wanted to say thanks to the mods for allowing this to go ahead. I spoke to agdickie about starting this thread last night and as he said earlier he was very reluctant to allow it to go ahead because of past experiences. However, I am very glad that you all proved him wrong!

As I said at the beginning, I am very pleased with all the responses.
Keep the suggestions coming folks.

[XX377]

How many onions do you need ?

I am off to Sainsburys' in the morning and will pick up a few bags.

Red or Spannish ?

Where should I send them ?

By the way, what exactly are you going to do with them ?

[Ben H]

Sometimes they take a little time to settle down

Oi!

Otherwise, a very well thought-out post , and one that I'm sure that 99% of the membership agree with.

[Ben H]

Andy, I hear what you're saying about Off Topic, but that, back in the day, was what set UKAR apart from the rest. The irreverent banter, and mickey-taking threads. Take that away, and you're left with any one of the other aviation forums.

Another good point there Dan - people need to think of UKAR as more of a flying station Ante Room, rather than an Operations Centre.

[ulverstonfgr4]

UKAR is in my opinion the best site there is the "Premier League " if you like! the standard of photography is very very high,so for someone who has got into photography late in life and a novice this is not the place to learn on the job or humiliate your self with garbage shot's,so although i will continue to enjoy UKAR i for one will not post pictures again until i think ive reached an acceptable standard how ever long that takes a bit of self regulation you could say. However those at the same level as me should still continue to enjoy what this site offers ( a hell of a lot ) .Or have i got this totally wrong and that it does not matter what standard or skill level you are at its the quality of what is posted?

[agdickie]

I also wanted to say thanks to the mods for allowing this to go ahead. I spoke to agdickie about starting this thread last night and as he said earlier he was very reluctant to allow it to go ahead because of past experiences. However, I am very glad that you all proved him wrong!

Indeed, threads like this in the past have just been complete bitch-fests and i sure as hell didn't want to OK one of those. Very happy with the manner this thread has been conducted in

ulverstonfgr4 - You could always post you're shots in the critique thread if you want hints and tips.

[AndyBeau]

Dan, not advocating for off topic to disappear just a little consideration on the types of topics that come up. I'm happy to leave it in your hands since I don't generally spend that much time in there any way. I'm all up for more mickey taking threads and irrelevant banter. We do have to have something to talk about at airshows etc.

Ben, it took me nearly 3 hours to put that together. I nearly lost the will to live at the end!