What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby CH2 on Sun 31 May 2009, 11:03 am

IanH wrote:Morning all,

1. Recognise quality be it side on, low fly, up side down or inside my shed,
2. Forget who photographed it and give more credit and encouragement where it is due,
3. Inspire, motivate, give help etc which is especially relevant for the younger generation or for those who are new to this. I hasten to add I put no age limit on this. Nobody should be underestimated. 'If they are good enough they are old enough' is a well used sporting phrase which applies equally here.
4. Not being ageist, elitist or anything else that suggests bias or preference.
5. Looking outside ones own particular genre/interest/ area of expertise and recognise the 'quality' efforts of others whoever it is.

Have a great week. Cheers.


Well said.

I understand that some people have been put off from posting on here as a result of stupid throw away comments that were made by people who should have known better. I can think of one particular occasion where a member posted what were frankly a good set of F-15 shots from the Heath, only to be met by a ridiculous “boring side on shot" comment or something to the like.

I view UKAR because its fun and its full of information, plus the quality level of photography on the whole is excellent. Whilst I can understand that people want to maintain a level of particular quality, at the same time UKAR must not become an exclusive club, if we reach that stage, we’re in the spiral death dive. Everybody has to start somewhere and lets not knock the youngsters, there’s shots I took back as a sixteen year old, that I am still proud of today. I think Pete is a prime example of a young chap whose photographic skill is improving with each post, and it’s been nice to see him encouraged. Remember, some of these guys and girls might be driving a Typhoon in the not to distant future, when they are waving back at you from their cockpit, lets hope they remember and are still contributing to UKAR!

I believe it’s also helped a lot of us improve our photography, not wanting to single out names, but when you start to study TJ’s, MJ’s BJCC’s, Bennie Bloke or Glenn B’s (and there are plenty more) material you aim to be striving to reach their level. For me this has meant going back to basics and reading!! I still have a long way to go, but I think with enthusiast photography that’s the point, every day’s a school day and you keep climbing the hill or chasing the end of the Rainbow.

So lets encourage a wider photographic range
Lets encourage people (we can always PM)
Lets be positive and constructive in praise and criticism, why are shots good, why are they bad
More banter
Lets maintain our sense of humour (st24 is misunderstood)

Take care,
Last edited by CH2 on Sun 31 May 2009, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers,

Chris
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby A380FWWOW on Sun 31 May 2009, 11:35 am

Remember, some of these guys and girls might be driving a Typhoon in the not to distant future, when they are waving back at you from their cockpit, lets hope they remember and are still contributing to UKAR!


How right you could be! At 9pm yesterday we heard that one of our Air Cadets at 2497 (Cosford) Sqn had just completed her first Solo flight in a Grob Vigilant 15 minutes earlier, She I believe is planning to join the Fleet Air Arm as a Pilot!

And a great response CH2 :clap: :clap: :clap:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65589468@N04/
View on this site are my views and not those of any organisation!
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Ben H on Sun 31 May 2009, 11:39 am

A380FWWOW wrote:She I believe is planning to join the Fleet Air Arm as a Pilot!


Nice work with the RAF recruitment Trevor :grin: :tongue:
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby A380FWWOW on Sun 31 May 2009, 12:19 pm

Random wrote:
A380FWWOW wrote:She I believe is planning to join the Fleet Air Arm as a Pilot!


Nice work with the RAF recruitment Trevor :grin: :tongue:


Sadly the career path had been decided when she joined our Sqn at 16 years old, she was advised by the FAA to join an ATC sqn to get the experience!
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby phreakf4 on Sun 31 May 2009, 12:46 pm

Mention has been made regarding a critique thread for less experienced photographers. This would be a good idea, provided that those submitting images for advice could be sure they would receive constructive comments and not dismissive statements such as the one I saw some time back which said "I don't know why you bothered posting these shots."

We all have to start somewhere, and without help and encouragement, we would get nowhere.

The Critique Thread already in existence on this board is not really suited to this as it seems to be mostly aimed at "How can I get this image accepted on A.net/Jetphotos."

There are very few publications which give advice on aviation photography, partly because, to many "enthusiast photographers" and some publications, aircraft (or indeed any machines, such as cars or motorcycles) are not considered to be "suitable" subjects for "artistic" photography. Unfair, I know, but that's the way it is.

Edited for typos. I am writing while watching the WTCC on Eurosport (at least that's my excuse!) :smile:
nothing is confirmed at a show until it's u/c hits the tarmac or it's running in for it's display.....
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby MartinNeedham on Sun 31 May 2009, 8:32 pm

I've been thinking about what's been said over the past few pages.

If a two tier system is incorporated into the photography forums, where would the divide be? And who would decide which photographers are allocated into which tier without being biased? I'm 100% sure that everyone on UKAR has preferences for fellow members that they have met or are friendly with.

Martin
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Ben Montgomery on Sun 31 May 2009, 8:43 pm

MartinNeedham wrote:I've been thinking about what's been said over the past few pages.

If a two tier system is incorporated into the photography forums, where would the divide be? And who would decide which photographers are allocated into which tier without being biased? I'm 100% sure that everyone on UKAR has preferences for fellow members that they have met or are friendly with.

Martin


I think a photo rating system was mentioned a few pages back? If this were introduced perhaps the upper tier would be members with a certain photo score rating (70% or something). Just an idea.

I think we should just keep the photo system as it is, and make the effort to leave more productive comments if possible. :smile:

Ben
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby PeterR on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 6:32 am

TheOriginalMonty wrote:I think we should just keep the photo system as it is, and make the effort to leave more productive comments if possible. :smile:


:clap:
PeterR

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby mais01 on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 7:39 am

TheOriginalMonty wrote:
MartinNeedham wrote:I've been thinking about what's been said over the past few pages.

If a two tier system is incorporated into the photography forums, where would the divide be? And who would decide which photographers are allocated into which tier without being biased? I'm 100% sure that everyone on UKAR has preferences for fellow members that they have met or are friendly with.

Martin


I think a photo rating system was mentioned a few pages back? If this were introduced perhaps the upper tier would be members with a certain photo score rating (70% or something). Just an idea.

I think we should just keep the photo system as it is, and make the effort to leave more productive comments if possible. :smile:

Ben


Persoanllly i don.t think it would work.
With the percieved biase and inconsistant commenting on soem threads i doubt you could rely on people scoring when they cant be bothered to comment.
The idea of a tier systme i dont think is the way to go as this would only add to the perceived cliqueyness.
Photography is a very subjective matter at the best of times, personally i prefer to deal with images that have been processed as little as possible, whilst others prefer to software a good image from what might be seen as a less than ideal original. Now i'm not saying there si anything wrong with either method.
mais01

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby wallace on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 7:51 pm

Forgive me I can't be bothered reading the ten previous pages of this thread....

I kind of lost heart with UKAR, indeed if it wasn't for a friend I would not have known this thread existed.

For my money I have stopped posting my pictures onto UKAR and post instead to a new Scottish centered site (Spotting Group Scotland.)

I don't do that much (time for) military aviation, very little enthusiasm for airliners (only good as a stand by when the wx is too bad for GA) and GA is so poorly received here, especially GA in this part of the world that it is not worth the bother posting my pictures here.

You can let go with both barrels now, I'm just giving some feedback that's all and I doubt if I'll be following this thread after this post anyway.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby mais01 on Mon 01 Jun 2009, 8:19 pm

wallace wrote:Forgive me I can't be bothered reading the ten previous pages of this thread....

I kind of lost heart with UKAR, indeed if it wasn't for a friend I would not have known this thread existed.

For my money I have stopped posting my pictures onto UKAR and post instead to a new Scottish centered site (Spotting Group Scotland.)

I don't do that much (time for) military aviation, very little enthusiasm for airliners (only good as a stand by when the wx is too bad for GA) and GA is so poorly received here, especially GA in this part of the world that it is not worth the bother posting my pictures here.

You can let go with both barrels now, I'm just giving some feedback that's all and I doubt if I'll be following this thread after this post anyway.


Might as well reply as not both barrels response then..

You make some valid points with regards how certain types of images are recieved it is pretty well known GA is at best i think tolerated certainly in my book doesnt seem to be encouraged etc.
It is a shame people loose heart so to speak and a bigger shame that images are not being seen becuase of the reaction and or cooments of a few.
It does seem strange that soem who dont like GA have so much to say about positngs on the subject, one might have assumed if it aint their thing then they woudl of stayed away or perhaps it was just an excuse to have a dig fo rthe sake of it?
Keep posting matey dont loose heart this is a great forum and it is a real shame for people to be put off being part of it.
mais01

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby John Cairncross on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:17 pm

Whether it is or isn't "Cliquey" - it is a fairly common perception of UKAR amongst members and non-members alike. Perhaps addressing that "perception" would help improve the atmosphere, contributions and membership.
John Cairncross

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Ben H on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:20 pm

John Cairncross wrote:Perhaps addressing that "perception" would help improve the atmosphere, contributions and membership.


But how would you go about doing that? Stop friends talking to each other?
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:23 pm

Random wrote:
John Cairncross wrote:Perhaps addressing that "perception" would help improve the atmosphere, contributions and membership.


But how would you go about doing that? Stop friends talking to each other?

Exactly. :question:
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby agdickie on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:46 pm

There would be a case for there being "cliques" if people only replied to their mates posts and actively refused to respond to others. I don't believe that's the case.
Agdickie on Airliners.net
Hey jet pilots! Do a barrell roll!
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby John Cairncross on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:52 pm

Random wrote:
John Cairncross wrote:Perhaps addressing that "perception" would help improve the atmosphere, contributions and membership.

But how would you go about doing that? Stop friends talking to each other?

As the title of the thread solicits "opinions", you got mine, for free :biggrin: Seeing you considered my comment in depth for less than three minutes, it is not wholly surprising you can not think of an answer yourself.

"Exactly" posts as really no better than "WHS" posts are just so much noise and a waste of bandwidth :sleepy:
John Cairncross

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby flygirl on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:58 pm

:grin: :grin: It needs an Anna! and a few other women. :roll: :grin: :lol:
We're not lost. We're locationally challenged. http://planemadanna.blogspot.com/
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Ben H on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 6:58 pm

John Cairncross wrote: Seeing you considered my comment in depth for less than three minutes, it is not wholly surprising you can not think of an answer yourself.


Yes, but what viable solution is there? You clearly have one, so let my rushed brain become aware of it. :biggrin:
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Dollar99 on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 7:04 pm

The word clique has been mentioned in many a post. So they either exist or are perceived to exist. How you address it is yours to consider.

As to the comment about only responding to certain posts and not others it does go on. There are certain threads I don't even bother to open as I can name those responding and the comments they will post blindfolded.

UKAR does get talked about at the end of runways and at shows. Opinions are polarised between the best thing since sliced bread and the biggest joke on the internet. You have to somehow try and win over the latter or at least get them to appreciate there are merits to at least looking.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby Dan380 on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 7:07 pm

I may not be one of the longer stading members here, but I have not found the community to be half as bad as some have said so far in this topic. Unlike some other forums I have been a member of, I have never found myself confronted by aggresive or provocative members looking to cause an argument or raise their ego another notch.
I've posted my photos many times in the airliners section, and always found my topics get comments even if sometimes they are a bit slow to come. And I'm certainly not in any "clique" and know very few members here in real life. However in my breif travels to the airshows forums I have seen the waves upon waves of the same topics taken on the same day of the same aircraft only a few feet apart, and I can understand why these don't get comments. It would be nice if we could make sure no topics go uncommented, but if you're posting the same shots as the last twenty people in front of you, what do you expect?

I do like the idea of the rules against posting multiple photos of the same aircraft, but I think two should be the max, not one.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby mais01 on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 7:49 pm

John Cairncross wrote:Whether it is or isn't "Cliquey" - it is a fairly common perception of UKAR amongst members and non-members alike. Perhaps addressing that "perception" would help improve the atmosphere, contributions and membership.


I don't think there is a practicable way of dealing with this other than to accept that it happens.
If mutual backslapping floats peoples boats, then crack on.
How the actualities or perceptions affect membership numbers i dont think is too much of an issue at present, perhaps those in the know could provide some insight with figures on this.
People come and go from forums all the time for a whole host of reasons its part and parcel of the nature of the beast so to speak.
It is interesting to note though on some of the threads the number of views in relation to the number of commnets, if we assume that people will pick and choose what they are interested in looking at i.e dont read every thread, yet cannot be bothered to comment unless its a mates post perhaps?
mais01

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby DeanW on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 7:56 pm

There might be 'cliques' that just seem to reply to their mates photo posts, but then why wouldn't you reply to a post with some of your mates photos in it?
I think another thing that doesn't help regarding the replying to photo posts is the fact that there are a lot of Coningsby threads which get very repetitive and samey, no matter who they're from. Not likely to get you masses of replies!
DeanW

Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby danspuggti on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 8:01 pm

I've watched this thread over it's 11 pages (or whatever it is now) and thought I'd give my opinion as a newbie (registered 21st April '09).

Comments on Photo threads - As much as I'd love to post a comment on every set of photo's posted on here there just isn't enough hours in the day!!! Sometimes I can't even read all of the new posts in "Aviation Waffle" (for example) before new ones are put on!!!
As a complete photography novice (and not affraid to admit it) I can look at a pic and think it's good but then someone with more experience will come along and say "needs ." or "too ....."
I haven't posted any of my pic's on here so far (except in a thread I posted as a question in photography tips) simply because I don't think they're good enough!!!
If I did decide to post a few after an airshow for example, rather than be ridiculed for posting "under par" photo's, I would hope for some constructive critisism as that is what's going to help me improve :smile:
As for people that ridicule the type of aircraft people photograph (civillian springs to mind) then shame on you :mad:

Cliques - Although I've not "seen" this myself, I'm not suprised that "off screen" friends comment on their friends pic's more than others. I'm a member of a Carp Fishing forum and this is evident on there too but I'd hardley call it a "cliquey" forum. For example I have never caught a 20lb carp (big thing in carp fishing :wink: ), but I know as soon as I do and post the photo on the forum, I know of at least 4-5 people that will be commenting on it. Why? Because we're mates. Not a "clique" but just mates outside of the forum.

I joined this forum primarily to gain information regarding airshows I attend (or hope to attend) and to gain advice with regards to photographing aircraft. So far so good is all I can say :smile:

DAN

P.S. I hope to meet some of the forum members at shows this season!
Same old sh*t.............just happening on a different day!!!
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby scotthldr on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 8:05 pm

Definition of Clique

A clique (IPA:/'kliːk/, pronounced /'klɪk/ by some Americans) is an exclusive group of people who share interests, views, purposes, patterns of behavior, or ethnicity.[1] A clique as a reference group can be either normative or comparative. Membership in a clique is often, but not necessarily, exclusive, and qualifications for membership may be social or essential to the nature of the clique. The term 'clique' may be used pejoratively.


So taking into consideration the above there are cliques within UKAR, it's got to be expected on this type of site, but this isn't the problem that the forum is facing, the problem is the ever growing lack of self criticism, pride and talent within the membership. With the ever increasing membership everyone wants to get on the bandwagon weather it be through Photography, Modelling what ever floats their boat, they want to be noticed and have their say (lets face it everyone does) , and yes they're entitled to it. I have been an active member on here for the past 2 years and I have watched the quality of photos/models/ spelling etc etc... gradually fall and I'm not the only one that says this. If people want to be taken seriously then you have to take yourself seriously first. I like to scroll through the photo section especially the Mod Mil. I like to see low level shots, side on shots, head on shots upside down shots but most of all I like to see in focus and correct exposure shots, I don't want to see under/over exposed shots, out of focus shots, some a/c flying at 20000ft above your house shots. I'm no photographer like some on here but I do know what quality is expected on here and above all what is acceptable to me. If I can't achieve it then I don't post it. The same applies to the Modelling section I have seen some howlers on there in the past, as said before everyone is entitled to post, but lets face it, if you can't take the time to produce something acceptable then you can't expect others to take you seriously enough to reply. There is of course the guys/girls that are starting out in the hobby and are actively seeking advice /tips and I'm sure I speak for most on here when I say that you will always get help from most members on here.

Another problem I'm seeing on here and I think it's the biggest one, are the people and don't contribute to any part of the forums but troll their way through the forums picking fault with those that do, mostly on grammar, spelling mistakes as there knowledge of aviation related matters is limited.

" It takes little or no ability to find fault, hence why there is so many critics in the World"

Maybe it is time to start weeding these people out and banning them from the site.

Maybe you agree with me on the above, more likely you won't. But from were I'm sitting thats what I'm seeing.
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Re: What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

Postby John Cairncross on Tue 02 Jun 2009, 8:15 pm

Rule #20, is it ever used?
20) Any post deemed unnecessary or pointless will be removed immediately. Repeat offenders may be warned and/or banned. This includes thread bumping, needless post count increasing or comments that are generally not very helpful, e.g. “nice pics mate”.
John Cairncross

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