RIAT 2013 Review

RIAT 2013 Review

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 8:48 pm

"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Luke28 on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:09 pm

What an absolute nail on the head article. Does the opinion of this forum actually carry any power or does it just get shrugged off?
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Thu 25 Jul 2013, 10:14 pm

Luke28 wrote:What an absolute nail on the head article. Does the opinion of this forum actually carry any power or does it just get shrugged off?

Thank you.

I honestly believe the reaction to RIAT 2011 on UKAR (and other websites like it) helped shape some of the changes for 2012. People at DBH do read this website - Tim Prince told our guys at the press day that UKAR gives him "sleepless nights".

We've also had this sort of response to RIAT coverage on UKAR before: http://www.airtattoo.com/airshow/newsro ... nthusiasts
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 8:24 am

Just one small point , though.....
Dan may want to go and do some 'number-crunching' & compare the participation lists of previous years with this year......it may then cause him to reconsider his statement :
PA-28s, Jet Provosts, the Red Star Rebels. Aircraft which would pass by unnoticed at a small airshow, here used shamelessly to bulk out the thinnest static in RIAT history.
I did so earlier & was surprised by the results.
( I did have a post typed-up with a breakdown , but when I sent it I got the "please log on" screen & was unable to recover it......and I just couldn't be bothered to work out the totals & type them all up again !! )

My way of gauging the static line-up is quite simple -- what I can ( or more precisely , can't ) see.
I always camp in roughly the same area of the top field at Kempsford - up against the tree-line at the Western end - during 'arrivals week'.
In previous years , I've been able to look down the field towards the blue entrance & watch that area rapidly fill with large transports & tankers ; I've been able to look through the trees towards the green entrance & have the view rapidly obscured by large aircraft ; I've been able to look towards the runway & have the view slowly obstructed by large aircraft so that by the Thursday afternoon / Friday morning it's completely obscured.

This year ?? By the Friday night , there were very few large aircraft down the "blue" end , very few large aircraft up the "green" end , and - most noticeably - absolutely nothing along the runway fence-line !!
That's when it really dawned on me just how poor the static line-up was this year.

I've got a photo taken from outside my tent on the Friday lunchtime showing the view down towards the "blue" end this year , but as I don't do Photobucket - or any of the on-line photo sites - I can't post it ( that's one of the things I miss compared to the VTTS Forum.....you can post pics directly from your home computer there , without having to use a hosting site )
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Rule 27 on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 8:31 am

Out of interest, why so much "hate" for the Red Star Rebels? Surely a Cold War-era jet aircraft should be of interest?!

Regarding the article, I agree with the sentiment, if not the way it is put across. RIAT do need to be careful about their audiences and how they treat their "core" audience, but then with the current ticketing system (buy up front, no refunds allowed), will they care if 90% of Joe Public buy tickets and then don't go because of the weather?

Maybe not a discussion for this thread, thinking about it!
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby boff180 on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 8:41 am

Brevet Cable wrote:Just one small point , though.....
Dan may want to go and do some 'number-crunching' & compare the participation lists of previous years with this year......it may then cause him to reconsider his statement :
PA-28s, Jet Provosts, the Red Star Rebels. Aircraft which would pass by unnoticed at a small airshow, here used shamelessly to bulk out the thinnest static in RIAT history.
I did so earlier & was surprised by the results.


We have compared, this year 37% of the static were civilian aircraft. And the total number of civilians on static was an unprecedented record over the past 11 years.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 9:01 am

Rule 27 wrote:Out of interest, why so much "hate" for the Red Star Rebels? Surely a Cold War-era jet aircraft should be of interest?!
Easy.....it's 'cos they're Welsh !! :lol:

boff180 wrote:We have compared, this year 37% of the static were civilian aircraft. And the total number of civilians on static was an unprecedented record over the past 11 years.

My point was more regarding the actual numbers rather than % ........and by "civilian" are you including just GA stuff or you including civilian-owned warbirds/jets ??

Just some quick figures for GA aircraft ( I may have missed a couple ) from the participation lists on the RIAT site :
2006 : 53 // 2007 : 57 // 2008 : 49 // ( no lists for 2009/10 ) 2011 : 41 // 2012 : 25 // 2013 : 34
So if you look at those totals ( which are just GA so exclude airliners & balloons ) the only year with a lower GA total was last year , all the others were considerably higher !!
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby boff180 on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 9:24 am

Ours was done off logs of what actually turned up on the ground and it is the complete opposite. The graphs are in the RIAT section.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby DeltaPapa on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 9:26 am

I wasn't here but the article was a good read. The only thing I would question is....'equalising the quality of the display is probably something VTST should look at'.

In this day and age that would more likely led to Kevs display being dumbed down and none of us would want that!
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 9:36 am

boff180 wrote:Ours was done off logs of what actually turned up on the ground and it is the complete opposite. The graphs are in the RIAT section.
Seen the graphs ( and I note some people disputing them )
The totals I give are the ones off the online participation lists & don't include the cancellations that they list seperately.
So what totals ( not percentage , actual totals ) of GA aircraft on static do you have , because none of the graphs detail this as they merely lump all the civilian stuff together ( be they warbirds , classic jets or GA , flying & static )
After all , the likes of the MiG OVT & the BAE Typhoon were both Civilian !!
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Fri 26 Jul 2013, 12:02 pm

Rule 27 wrote:Out of interest, why so much "hate" for the Red Star Rebels? Surely a Cold War-era jet aircraft should be of interest?!

There is no "hate". They're just a type I'm not very fond of, especially in civilian liveries. As stated, I can't imagine I'd get excited about them if they appeared in a flying display at a show I was going to, let alone just lining the static park at the Air Tattoo. I may end up being pleasantly surprised if/when I see them flying at a show, but I won't be going out of my way to see them, that's all.

DeltaPapa wrote:I wasn't here but the article was a good read. The only thing I would question is....'equalising the quality of the display is probably something VTST should look at'.

In this day and age that would more likely led to Kevs display being dumbed down and none of us would want that!

Hmmm, yes, I can see how it might be interpreted that way. Perhaps a slight alteration is required to the wording.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby pb643 on Sat 27 Jul 2013, 10:07 pm

A fair review .

A couple of small points I would expand on. This year featured a larger number of helicopter displays than average and as mentioned regarding the Eurocopter display, they tend to only display to the the centre third of the crowd line. I was looking forward to seeing the Finnish army helicopter and he only made it to the western end of the crow line once.

Speaking for myself , the only reason I came away feeling I had had a pretty good day was because my expectations had sunk so low over the last few months, that I was expecting an all out catastrophe. That left me able to enjoy a show that was a shadow of RIAT 2012.

Phil
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Trevsy on Sun 28 Jul 2013, 7:05 pm

pb643 wrote:Speaking for myself , the only reason I came away feeling I had had a pretty good day was because my expectations had sunk so low over the last few months, that I was expecting an all out catastrophe. That left me able to enjoy a show that was a shadow of RIAT 2012.


I think that is very true, and will have tempered many an enthusiasts opinion of the show.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Dan213 on Sun 28 Jul 2013, 10:36 pm

Fantastic report. Hits the nail on the head.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby bradders2000 on Wed 31 Jul 2013, 7:56 am

"On the evidence of RIAT 2013 - from the troubled build up to the show experience on Saturday - I'd have to think long and hard before I'm prepared to commit another £49 for a day-specific ticket next July"


Pretty much sums up our plight, we won't commit to a day only event next year...

Unfortunately this year purchased wrong day (Saturday instead of Sunday), so when printing out sheet on 6pm on Saturday and realizing mistake I quickly phoned (alas no reply) then tried emailing.. The only solution offered was to buy two more tickets for Sunday and that we may/may not get money back on Saturday... Not to keen to spend another £100, so decided against..

I know it is my fault (stupid me), but the unwillingness to for them to try and help and expect us to pay another £100 (even half price tickets would have been good).. It adds no cost to them, but finding another £100 is a lot to me.. So my relationship with the event is null avoided and will not be ever going to this air show as don't feel there is a community spirit, just another event wanting to extract money from my wallet..

As report goes, we might as well just sit outside event and watch the planes as the static display was pretty thin on ground..
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby tu16 on Wed 31 Jul 2013, 3:39 pm

"The revelation that Europe's current must-see display item, the SAAB Viggen, was not even approached by the organisers must be seen as a colossal error."

Can someone from RIAT confirm if this, much mentioned, fact is true. I find it hard to believe that the SWHF would put it on their website if at least a quote hadn't been requested, especially as, at one time, it looked as though the Viggen would do a UK tour at Waddo, Yeovilton & RIAT.

If you think it should have been booked regardless, fair enough. But I think that to say the SWHF were not approached for a quote could be wide of the mark. Apologises if I am wrong.
tu16

Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby boff180 on Wed 31 Jul 2013, 4:30 pm

tu16 wrote:Can someone from RIAT confirm if this, much mentioned, fact is true. I find it hard to believe that the SWHF would put it on their website if at least a quote hadn't been requested, especially as, at one time, it looked as though the Viggen would do a UK tour at Waddo, Yeovilton & RIAT.

If you think it should have been booked regardless, fair enough. But I think that to say the SWHF were not approached for a quote could be wide of the mark. Apologises if I am wrong.


Information came from Tim Prince himself during an interview at the RIAT 2013 Media Day.

Andy
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 31 Jul 2013, 5:28 pm

You've only got to look at the websites & facebook pages of some of the aircraft they eventually booked to see that some of them weren't contacted until the last minute.
Lesson No.1 for DBH -- cast your net wide well in advance of the show......it's easier to narrow selections down than to frantically look for acts at the last minute ( and if you've already made the initial contact earlier you'll have all the info to hand , just in case )
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby PeterR on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 7:09 am

I think Air Operations division at DBH know what they're doing... With 40 years of experience!
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby TonyO on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 7:45 am

Brevet Cable wrote:You've only got to look at the websites & facebook pages of some of the aircraft they eventually booked to see that some of them weren't contacted until the last minute.
Lesson No.1 for DBH -- cast your net wide well in advance of the show......it's easier to narrow selections down than to frantically look for acts at the last minute ( and if you've already made the initial contact earlier you'll have all the info to hand , just in case )


You can judge the efficiency of an organisation by looking at the Facebook page of the people they do business with? You should be in consultancy!

There will always been last-minute negotiations, but for many of the aircraft that show up at RIAT the organisation has been going on for the best part of a year. Sequestration also played a part too, no-one really knew how the U.S. armed services would react which no doubt screwed up many plans.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 7:54 am

PeterR wrote:I think Air Operations division at DBH know what they're doing... With 40 years of experience!
Given the posts on this forum , including those by other members of UKAR staff , I'd say that is a debatable conclusion.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 8:13 am

TonyO wrote:You can judge the efficiency of an organisation by looking at the Facebook page of the people they do business with? You should be in consultancy!
There will always been last-minute negotiations, but for many of the aircraft that show up at RIAT the organisation has been going on for the best part of a year. Sequestration also played a part too, no-one really knew how the U.S. armed services would react which no doubt screwed up many plans.

If the people they do business with are somewhat critical and state that no contact whatsoever was made until the last minute , then yes , you can judge an organisation's efficiency by that.
Last minute negotiations , yes......but my point was that they should have made contact with the various operators at the outset , if only to have a pool of 'displays' available in case they needed to make some last-minute additions or changes.
As to sequestration......still a red herring , I'm afraid -- with the political in-fighting in America , it was always going to happen , and with the American Military cancelling it's airshows & airshow attendances from late January / early February it was a shoe-in that American participation at British airshows would also suffer the same fate..........even if the sequestration had been temporarily suspended earlier , the requirement for pilot & crew proficiency training would rightly have taken priority over any potential airshow attendance.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Blackbird on Thu 01 Aug 2013, 1:02 pm

An excellent report Dan :clap: :clap: which pretty much captures my own thoughts.

I also would endorse pb643's view.. "Speaking for myself , the only reason I came away feeling I had had a pretty good day was because my expectations had sunk so low over the last few months, that I was expecting an all out catastrophe. That left me able to enjoy a show that was a shadow of RIAT 2012" I also went on Saturday and it was just very unfortunate that the much heralded improvement to the weather never materialised. (It does make me wonder just how good their forecasting is. They were promising the cloud would clear well into the morning at least).

I have completed their online market survey and made suitably ascerbic remarks about the Caterham din, George Bacon's seaside-type commentary and high GA content. I'd urge everyone to take the opportunity to complete the survey which takes only a few minutes, gives you a chance to voice your opinion - and someone may even read and pay attention to the responses!

Andy
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby RobW on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 7:02 am

Brevet Cable wrote: Last minute negotiations , yes......but my point was that they should have made contact with the various operators at the outset , if only to have a pool of 'displays' available in case they needed to make some last-minute additions or changes.
.


Slightly naive chap. I am sure they will have made contact with a great many operators in autumn 2012. But, how do you reserve a commercially operated aircraft (e.g. almost all civilian aircraft, including warbirds) early on, without making a financial commitment nor guaranteeing a slot at the show? Are they likely to accept a possible place at RIAT or a firm booking somewhere else?

Rob
We don’t know how propitious are the circumstances, Frederick.
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Re: RIAT 2013 Review

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 02 Aug 2013, 11:42 am

Rob ;
Not 'reserve' .... merely that if they make the initial contact early & obtain all the required info ( cost , display details , etc. ) and keep themselves updated as to if the aircraft is still available or booked for elsewhere , if they do then need an aircraft at short notice they'd be up to speed on it.
According to some operators , no contact whatsoever had been received prior to DBH's last-minute rush.
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