London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby cg_341 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 1:19 pm

It's not been a fortnight yet, give them chance :up:
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby CJS on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 1:34 pm

Can someone tell a doofus (me) why a single engine modern aircraft can't fly over London but a single engine 78 year old aircraft can? Or a Hawk, with only one engine?

I'm guessing the Hawk has a better glide than say a Tutor but really I :dunno:
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby capercaillie on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 2:23 pm

cg_341 wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:BBMF have 12 aircraft, according to the RAF website -
the Flight operates six Spitfires, two Hurricane Mk 2Cs, a Lancaster as well as a C47 Dakota and two Chipmunk aircraft (primarily used for training)

F-35s are all still in CONUS, aren't they? If so, will they drag any over here just for that?
You missed out the King Airs, Shadow R1s, Tutors, Griffins, Junos, Jupiters, Squirrels & Vigilant ( or have some of those already been binned? )

Do the BBMF have 12 pilots/crew?

King Airs - all retired
Shadows - unlikely!
Tutors - single engine no dispensation (for overflight of central London)
Griffins - all retired
Junos - I don't think we'll see them involved
Jupiters - as above
Squirrels - all retired
Vigilant - single engine no dispensation

As LNSE says, there will be F-35s here by the time of the flypast, all going well.


Haven't we still got 84 sqn's Griffins?
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Wissam24 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 2:45 pm

ericbee123 wrote:
Fournier wrote:A long way from the multi-type flyovers back in the days when we actually had an Air Force to be reckoned with. Must break Her Majesty's heart to see how depleted her armed forces have become.


Oh get over it. It isn’t the early 20th Century. We aren’t going to war with a large European nation. We haven’t got an Empire to control. The only “conflicts” we’ve been in recently, we have chosen to be in , against second tier opponents.

Russia and China are not going to start anything soon.

Other than your national pride, explain why we need more than we have now. We are still one of the strongest western countries, especially as we are a tiny little island surrounded by friendly nations.



Well put, except that we're actually a huge island, 8th biggest in the world. Nothing geographically tiny about Great Britain in the slightest.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby aviodromefriend on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:02 pm

CJS wrote:Can someone tell a doofus (me) why a single engine modern aircraft can't fly over London but a single engine 78 year old aircraft can? Or a Hawk, with only one engine?

I'm guessing the Hawk has a better glide than say a Tutor but really I :dunno:
There is a waiver to fly Hawks over London, as else the Reds wouldn't be allowed to take part in these flypasts. 78 years old? I think you mean BBMF machines? They are props, not jets.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby The Baron on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:46 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
CJS wrote:Can someone tell a doofus (me) why a single engine modern aircraft can't fly over London but a single engine 78 year old aircraft can? Or a Hawk, with only one engine?

I'm guessing the Hawk has a better glide than say a Tutor but really I :dunno:
There is a waiver to fly Hawks over London, as else the Reds wouldn't be allowed to take part in these flypasts. 78 years old? I think you mean BBMF machines? They are props, not jets.


He's asking why the BBMF fighters and Red Arrows can overfly London but Tutors/Tucanos etc can't. It's a reasonable question and one I can't answer.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Pen Pusher on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:53 pm

BBMF & Red Arrows formation are classed as multi-engined aircraft to get around the single engine rule. Honest.

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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Big Eric on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:54 pm

A Tutor can glide much better than a Hawk, a Tutor has a much slower airspeed and could easily crash-land in one of the parks, a Hawk is like a brick if the engine dies and it would have to be an ejection after aiming the aircraft at some sort of greenery. I've never understood the rule about single-engine aircraft either !
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 6:49 pm

And a vigilant can glide much better than any of them, which illustrates how daft the restriction is.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby CJS on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 7:45 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
CJS wrote:Can someone tell a doofus (me) why a single engine modern aircraft can't fly over London but a single engine 78 year old aircraft can? Or a Hawk, with only one engine?

I'm guessing the Hawk has a better glide than say a Tutor but really I :dunno:
There is a waiver to fly Hawks over London, as else the Reds wouldn't be allowed to take part in these flypasts. 78 years old? I think you mean BBMF machines? They are props, not jets.


Ah, is that what those spinny things are? :surrender:

Thanks for the replies chaps - in other words it's basically a pointless rule then?!
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby verreli on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 9:16 pm

CJS wrote:
Thanks for the replies chaps - in other words it's basically a pointless rule then?!


No, it's a sensible rule that's aimed at civilian operators. If single engine aircraft operated over London probability dictates that eventually there would be an incident and it probably wouldn't end well. For the odd flypast the risk is acceptable. The aircraft are well maintained, the crew skill is high and there will be a briefing on what to do if something went wrong. Bottom line is, the RAF can fly what they want over London. The rules are made by the people that 'own' the RAF and the airspace they fly. As with all rules, they can be bent, twisted, bypassed or dispensations made if the desire is there.

To clarify, the ANO rule 5d states that:
(d) The land clear rule: An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city, town or settlement shall not fly below such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the congested area in the event of a power unit failure.

With the classification of airspace over London it is possible to get a clearance from ATC but London is so congested that landing safely is impractical at altitudes below about 5,300ft for central London. That height is based on an 11 mile glide at a L/D of 11. The parks and river don't count as safe because they are filled with people or vessels although I suspect for the RAF flypast, the river will feature in their contingency planning.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby st24 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:35 pm

verreli wrote:
CJS wrote:Bottom line is, the RAF can fly what they want over London.


That's not technically true though. After all it was the pathetic glide distance of the Harrier that precluded their appearance over the capital and opened up the questions about all single engine types doing so.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby vulcan558 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:54 pm

The Hawk as a not to bad glide, it also as the RAT back up.
The Harrier glided like a brick and did not have a RAT system.
I would at a guess say the new F35 will be like the Harrier and not allowed in flypasts over the capital.

Stuff like Spitfires and Hurricanes glide pretty good.
Last edited by vulcan558 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby verreli on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:01 pm

st24 wrote:
verreli wrote:
CJS wrote:Bottom line is, the RAF can fly what they want over London.


That's not technically true though. After all it was the pathetic glide distance of the Harrier that precluded their appearance over the capital and opened up the questions about all single engine types doing so.


Someone will have done a risk assessment and concluded that the possibility of ditching safely in the river was marginal and so made the [correct] decision to not fly it in the flypast. However if they had really wanted to...

Someone has to make a decision and be accountable for that decision in a worst case scenario.


As for the F35, I agree, it doesn't look like an aerodynamically efficient airframe but does have an IPP to drive the flight controls in the event of a main engine shutdown. The flypast height of 1000ft is high enough to point the aircraft at a clear stretch of river and eject.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Lightningkid70 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 12:10 am

Does anybody know if there would be a larger scale practice flight nearer the time for this? I understand that a practice flight is usually organised for the Queens Birthday Parade, will a large scale practice be carried out for both events?

Martin
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Seahornet on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:52 am

verreli wrote:
CJS wrote:
Thanks for the replies chaps - in other words it's basically a pointless rule then?!


No, it's a sensible rule that's aimed at civilian operators. If single engine aircraft operated over London probability dictates that eventually there would be an incident and it probably wouldn't end well. For the odd flypast the risk is acceptable. The aircraft are well maintained, the crew skill is high and there will be a briefing on what to do if something went wrong. Bottom line is, the RAF can fly what they want over London. The rules are made by the people that 'own' the RAF and the airspace they fly. As with all rules, they can be bent, twisted, bypassed or dispensations made if the desire is there.

To clarify, the ANO rule 5d states that:
(d) The land clear rule: An aircraft flying over a congested area of a city, town or settlement shall not fly below such height as would permit the aircraft to land clear of the congested area in the event of a power unit failure.

With the classification of airspace over London it is possible to get a clearance from ATC but London is so congested that landing safely is impractical at altitudes below about 5,300ft for central London. That height is based on an 11 mile glide at a L/D of 11. The parks and river don't count as safe because they are filled with people or vessels although I suspect for the RAF flypast, the river will feature in their contingency planning.


The only flaw in your argument is that the ANO does not apply to UK military aircraft. The RAF have their own rules, which appear to be a bit more flexible, in some respects. :biggrin:
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Airshowhammer on Mon 16 Apr 2018, 8:30 am

So a Hurricane can fly over London but an F-35 can’t? I for one certainly hopes the F-35 does take part in the flypast. :facepalm:
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby ericbee123 on Mon 16 Apr 2018, 10:42 am

The way I understood it was a Hawk aircraft has a RAT ( Ram Air Turbine ) that deploys on engine failure and provides Aux power to flight controls and gives the pilot some degree of control in the glide.

Similarly the WW2 era props can feather their engines and are still controllable without power.

Harriers were not allowed ( except for Falklands Flypast ) because without the engines they apparently glided like a brick. Just what I’ve read, but the Harrier was basically designed as a powerful engine with wings and all it’s fancy manoeuvres were based on directing and redirecting thrust, not really relying on aerodynamics. Harrier 1 had a RAT but it was removed from the Harrier 2 and the AV8B. Maybe the Sea Harriers still had a RAT that’s why they were allowed for the Falklands Flypast ?
( incedentaly - I have read - they were removed from AV8B and Harrier 2 to save weight because when they deployed on a Harrier 1 you where about to eject anyway rather than try to glide the brick down - so it was surplus to requirements ! )

The F-35 will have totally different glide characteristics and might even have a RAT.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Lightningkid70 on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 1:49 pm

Lightningkid70 wrote:Does anybody know if there would be a larger scale practice flight nearer the time for this? I understand that a practice flight is usually organised for the Queens Birthday Parade, will a large scale practice be carried out for both events? I do hope this isn't a silly question to some.

Many thanks in advance

Martin
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 3:43 pm

Yep.
When & where is another matter.
Hopefully it'll be NOTAMd, but I think there have been occasions when practices haven't been ( or they have been, but the NOTAM doesn't say what it's for )
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby effects on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 7:50 pm

The Harrier was something like 5000ft altitude to every mile! Contrary to other comments the hawk has the necessary glide ability to make NHT or LHR, obviously on an engine failure the first step would be climb to gain some altitude.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby jules48 on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 8:05 am

Anyone mentioned the new Phenoms.
Also single engine aircraft are classed as 2 engined aircraft if they fly as a pair or multiple such as BBMF from what I understand
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby cg_341 on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 8:40 am

jules48 wrote:Anyone mentioned the new Phenoms.

Err, yeah, it's in my list! They're twin engine, so no reason why they won't be there.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby effects on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 8:51 am

jules48 wrote:Anyone mentioned the new Phenoms.
Also single engine aircraft are classed as 2 engined aircraft if they fly as a pair or multiple such as BBMF from what I understand

If that was the case we would have seen formations of harriers on numerous QBFs, from a flight planning view maybe but not safety wise.
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Re: London Flypast 10 July - up to 100 aircraft

Postby verreli on Wed 18 Apr 2018, 4:45 pm

effects wrote:The Harrier was something like 5000ft altitude to every mile! Contrary to other comments the hawk has the necessary glide ability to make NHT or LHR, obviously on an engine failure the first step would be climb to gain some altitude.


Interesting. Thanks for posting.

The Hawk seems to have an efficient engine out L/D. The flypast speed is 390kts at 1000ft. Converting the idealised kinetic energy (flypast - touchdown speeds) to potential energy (height) and flying at best glide speed of 170kts gives a L/D of 8.5 to fly the 11.9 miles to Northolt. This ignores wind effects, any turns and deployment of gear and flaps so 8.5 is a minimum and compares well with many higher aspect ratio designs.

On the basis of those figures, the Harrier is not so good, roughly 1:1. If reaching Northolt is the single engine safety standard for the flypast, I can't see the F35 being able to achieve that. We'll know in two months.
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