RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Wes_Howes on Fri 22 Jan 2016, 10:51 am

Finningley Boy wrote:To the two in the know,

A serious question if I may, as you both know, what is it you both understand to be the reason and why has it been suggested to local businesses, who have openly expressed their support in advance, that such an event will happen. I'd be interested to hear both why it won't or can't happen and why the idea has been given such a degree of credibility by the RAF's public communications staff?

FB :biggrin:

Once again n0143773, you have managed to swerve the original question and resorted to your game. If you can't answer the question because your hands are tied, just say so. Why do you feel the need to belittle and/or berate people instead of just clarifying?
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Wes_Howes

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby andrewn on Fri 22 Jan 2016, 3:56 pm

trying to stick to the facts.....

I don't doubt for one minute that SF is relaying the facts as he understands them. I feel sure somebody has prepared an Options paper, and that there are indeed very detailed plans for how an airshow at Scampton might happen.

Unfortunately, I foresee at least two major flaws in any plans:
1. Significant capital investment would be required to make Scampton a viable venue
2. Significant resource commitment from the RAF as a whole would be required to make the airshow happen

In my opinion neither of the above are likely to be available, therefore any such show at Scampton wont happen.

Its a terrible shame and I do wonder if the decision makers that allowed the Waddington show to stop are coming under pressure to revisit said decision?
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andrewn

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby DerekF on Fri 22 Jan 2016, 4:21 pm

It's interesting how this looks. Silentflight has been a great supporter of UKAR for many years with lots of great info about the Waddington show and must be disappointed by the apparent lack of a future for air shows in Lincolnshire. n0143773 on the other hand comes across as a rather sad individual who likes nothing better than to piss on other's parades, with scant regard for other's feelings.
n0143773 may be correct, however there are ways of saying so that means you don't come across as a total **** (Insert word as necessary)

Back to the subject at hand.
All we have is this on the Waddington website which I'm sure we've all seen.

The Royal Air Force has said an extensive survey of alternative sites in the East of England has been carried out and it has decided that it would be possible to hold an air show at RAF Scampton.
However, further work is needed to address significant legal, commercial and infrastructure issues.
The RAF said: “It will not be possible to hold an air show at RAF Scampton until 2017 at the earliest.
“The RAF appreciates that the cancellation of the air show at RAF Waddington will be a disappointment to many; however, it is hoped that the intent to establish an alternative air show at RAF Scampton is evidence of the RAF’s commitment to maintain its traditional and modern links to ‘Bomber County’.”


I think that there is only one factor that will stop an airshow at Scampton and that is the willingness of the RAF to actually do it. Let's face it, all you really need is field somewhere. Airshows manage to be held with little more than that as a starting point.
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DerekF

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby CJS on Fri 22 Jan 2016, 4:25 pm

n0143773 wrote:
SilentFlight wrote:
CJS wrote:
I appreciate that sometimes people are in the know but have their hands tied by those in much higher places and are therefore unable to spill the beans



:wink: exactly on the nail, there is a very detailed plan, but the RAF hold the decision, which we will all have to wait for.


:lmao:

It's amazing really. I tell everyone that Waddington will never have an airshow again, whilst all you had to say was 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' getting hopes up for no reason. As it happens, that round finished n0143773 1-0 SilentFlight.

Now, I am here telling everyone there will be no airshow at Scampton, whilst again, all you have to say is 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' - hopefully people have learnt from last time, in advance of me taking a 2-0 lead over you.


You really don't get it do you? :loser: :wall: You must be just a delight to be around.

Oh wait, you're deliberately being a pompous arse because it's amusing right? Ok, fair enough :clown:
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Finningley Boy on Sun 24 Jan 2016, 11:25 am

andrewn,

The points you raise may have a point, but with all respect, you sound like a typical modern day boardroom management speak educated type. what resources is it you're referring to that were easily available to Waddington, Leuchars, and all other RAF stations which since the invention of the jet engine have managed to come by to put on an airshow but which can't be put in place at Scampton? Are you referring to the condemned Barrack Blocks? isn't that an issue which is now being addressed with a view to the station's long term future. If not surely it would be the first hurdle to dismiss the credibility of the idea before it surfaced in public, suggesting the billets are vital to providing accommodation that is? It may well be the infrastructure issue to be addressed mentioned in the official public statement which has already been alluded to and while I don't want to use Silent Flight as the only reliable oracle on the matter, necessarily, he must be fairly close to what's been reviewed so far and just why Scampton is considered to be a possible option. As others say, it may not happen for one reason or another, but sweeping claims about lack of resources, what resources? Participating aircraft? Its a big airfield, it once housed four squadrons of Vulcans, it is in active use currently, so it has a runway perhaps more than twice the length and width of the one at Cosford, however much of its associated tarmac, asphalted track and hard standing isn't usable, enough of it must be because along with the Red Arrows and HHA Ltd there has to be certain a sizeable amount available, if currently some of the former V dispersals are in need of resurfacing that doesn't necessarily impinge upon herding 50,000 people on the other side of the airfield. Again, like that other chap no143773 and reheat module, if you can explain in detail just what it is you know to make holding an airshow on an active RAF Base impossible then by all means explain, but as Derek F pointed out, all you need for an airshow is a big field, everything the public then need arrives in marquee, trailer and pre-pack form. :cuppa:

FB :biggrin:
I have danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings!
Finningley Boy

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby andrewn on Sun 24 Jan 2016, 3:05 pm

Finningley Boy wrote:andrewn,

The points you raise may have a point, but with all respect, you sound like a typical modern day boardroom management speak educated type. what resources is it you're referring to that were easily available to Waddington, Leuchars, and all other RAF stations which since the invention of the jet engine have managed to come by to put on an airshow but which can't be put in place at Scampton? Are you referring to the condemned Barrack Blocks? isn't that an issue which is now being addressed with a view to the station's long term future. If not surely it would be the first hurdle to dismiss the credibility of the idea before it surfaced in public, suggesting the billets are vital to providing accommodation that is? It may well be the infrastructure issue to be addressed mentioned in the official public statement which has already been alluded to and while I don't want to use Silent Flight as the only reliable oracle on the matter, necessarily, he must be fairly close to what's been reviewed so far and just why Scampton is considered to be a possible option. As others say, it may not happen for one reason or another, but sweeping claims about lack of resources, what resources? Participating aircraft? Its a big airfield, it once housed four squadrons of Vulcans, it is in active use currently, so it has a runway perhaps more than twice the length and width of the one at Cosford, however much of its associated tarmac, asphalted track and hard standing isn't usable, enough of it must be because along with the Red Arrows and HHA Ltd there has to be certain a sizeable amount available, if currently some of the former V dispersals are in need of resurfacing that doesn't necessarily impinge upon herding 50,000 people on the other side of the airfield. Again, like that other chap no143773 and reheat module, if you can explain in detail just what it is you know to make holding an airshow on an active RAF Base impossible then by all means explain, but as Derek F pointed out, all you need for an airshow is a big field, everything the public then need arrives in marquee, trailer and pre-pack form. :cuppa:

FB :biggrin:


Hi FB,

If things were as simple in the modern world as you describe then I'd agree with you wholeheartedly - but they aren't. My credentials? I don't have any really, other than I've been going to airshows, big and small, since I was a wee lad and I'm now the wrong side of 40:)

I have been inside Scampton in recent years and it looked very uncared for, almost derelict in places, and our guide told us that large parts of the airfield (taxiways, dispersals, some hangars, other buildings) were unfit for use. How bad it is and how much money needs spending on it I don't know, but just the fact the official statement makes reference to "infrastructure issues" must tell you something. For what its worth I'd guess we're talking a few million quid, minimum, to bring the old place back up to a standard good enough to host an annual international airshow.

Regards resources then both Waddington and Leuchars are/were large, frontline MOBs, thus they had a decent number of fulltime RAF personnel whom could be called upon for various purposes to assist with the planning, preparation, running and post event clean up. Scampton hasn't been a MOB for many years now and pretty much ALL resources required to do anything would need to be sourced from either the private sector or other RAF bases.

With time, effort and money all the issues above (and many more) CAN be overcome, however my personal view is that the RAF/MoD have other priorities right now and that this whole Scampton idea will never see the light of day.

IF the MoD/RAF had been so committed to holding a large annual open day at a decent sized venue then there's no way they would have let Waddington go. Call me cynical but I simply do not believe the security issues related to UAV ops were in any way an insurmountable obstacle to holding an annual airshow (in 2014 I spent a great few days at a fantastic airshow in a country not far away from here where it is well known that US nukes are stored!!)

As they say FB, it'll all come out in the wash :smile:
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andrewn

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Finningley Boy on Sun 24 Jan 2016, 6:04 pm

Andrewn,

I can appreciate the observations you make and that it may seem a rather costly adventure just so they can put on a sizeable airshow and your point about Waddington rings more true than anything else, in which case, why go to such lengths. The line in the official release which gives me cause for concern is the bit where it says they hope that this will be taken as evidence of their continued commitment, can't recall the actual phrase but it does read as if we're meant to be satisfied that the RAF/MOD are actively seeking to move heaven and earth only to be unsuccessful, what their not saying is whether or not the outcome is a foregone conclusion. But indeed, airshows have been held at bases with highly sensitive material on board, no less than Waddington itself in the 1960s and 1970s when they held nuclear weapons in store, last time was 1980 I think.

Still, who knows, we may just be reading too much in between the lines. :cuppa:

FB :biggrin:
I have danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings!
Finningley Boy

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby XX752 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:34 pm

andrewn wrote:FB,

One sensible reason why Scampton is a non-starter is that large parts of the airfield are effectively "condemned", for a start many of the hard-standings and taxiways that visiting aircraft would need to use and large parts of the base in general are decaying, and would be a H&S hazard to any large scale influx of joe public. Another is lack of manning as unlike Waddington, Scampton is run by a Skeleton staff with minimal military presence on-site. Bussing them in from Waddington sounds feasible, but remember part of the reason Waddo got canned was basically cos the Air Day soaked up too much resource.

In my view its nothing but a cheap and very cynical attempt by UK MoD to placate local businesses/Joe Public, with little or no chance of becoming reality.

Realistically Waddo is the only game in town for the RAF to hold a major public display and now that's gone we're stuck!

Sorry to be so negative, but that's how I see it.


So how do shows such as Abingdon, Yorkshire Airshow, even RIAT manage? neither of these places have much permanent manpower, and in the case of the first two, no service personnel. As far as taxiways etc are concerned, most south side taxiways are serviceable, C130s go in and out so there is more than enough for a reasonable static park, even using the secondary runway that the reds use to access the main runway to / from. Nearby Coningsby, Cranwell, Waddington could all be used to support flying acts, as they often did when Waddington was in use.
XX752

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Slappywag on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 9:01 pm

Nearby Coningsby, Cranwell, Waddington could all be used to support flying acts, as they often did when Waddington was in use.

No they didn't.
Slappywag

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby TouchDown on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 9:23 pm

Nearby Coningsby, Cranwell, Waddington could all be used to support flying acts, as they often did when Waddington was in use.


No they didn't.


Depends how you define often and do you include station based aircraft - Typhoon, Tornado x 2 (Role Demo - Lossie based), BBMF operated from Coningsby, Tutor from Cranwell, on various display days between 2011 and 2014.

TD
TouchDown

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Slappywag on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 9:26 pm

The operating from home base logic. Not for the sake of operating from elsewhere.
Slappywag

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby MarkL on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 9:58 pm

CJS wrote:You really don't get it do you?


I don't think its him who 'doesn't get it' lol

Truth hurts.
HTAFC
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MarkL
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby CJS on Tue 26 Jan 2016, 6:58 am

MarkL wrote:
CJS wrote:You really don't get it do you?


I don't think its him who 'doesn't get it' lol

Truth hurts.


No it doesn't. I never went to Waddington and I wouldn't ever go to a show at Scampton. Too far for me.

Did you actually read his / her post? My comment referred to to the way s/he feels the need to display such ridiculous oneupmanship without the merest shred of proof they actually have any evidence to back up what they're saying. As a previous poster points out, s/he may well be right - my (and I don't think I am alone) issue is with the way they feel the need to rubbish the rest of the forum.

It's a shame, because UKAR is a nice place in this regard (and I should know, having asked enough daft questions in the last 4 years or so without more than a gentle dig - more often than not also with a useful and informative reply from someone who knows far better and is willing to back what they say up) compared to most other aviation forums.

There are ways of proving you know your onions. Her / his way, IMHO of course, doesn't do him / her any favours.

But hurt? No, I'm really not. But thanks for your concern, I do appreciate it ;-)
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby speedbird2639 on Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:29 am

my ... issue is with the way they feel the need to rubbish the rest of the forum.


I don't think n0143773 is 'rubbishing' the rest of the forum. I feel that they are just privileged to be in a position where they have access to certain information which means they can give an indication of the likelihood of something coming to pass. For eg: - re Waddington we had a 300+ post thread discussing the suggestion that it may be cancelled. Quite early on in that thread n0143773 posted that information that they had access to seemed to very much indicate that Waddington airshow was finished and would not be returning. Ultimately he was proved correct.

Now he has said he believes the Scampton show will not go ahead, based on information he has. So we can have another 300 post discussion about it if we want but that won't make it happen and it certainly won't make the relevant authorities change their minds.

To those who say he "must be just a delight to be around" - well I think he would be fine to be around. He calls a spade a shovel and just sticks to the pertinent information. Too many of the rest of you want to while away the hours discussing runway lengths and hard standing availability/ serviceability etc for an airshow that we have a strong indication that the RAF have no intention of ever holding.
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speedbird2639

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby CJS on Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:41 am

speedbird2639 wrote:
my ... issue is with the way they feel the need to rubbish the rest of the forum.


I don't think n0143773 is 'rubbishing' the rest of the forum. I feel that they are just privileged to be in a position where they have access to certain information which means they can give an indication of the likelihood of something coming to pass. For eg: - re Waddington we had a 300+ post thread discussing the suggestion that it may be cancelled. Quite early on in that thread n0143773 posted that information that they had access to seemed to very much indicate that Waddington airshow was finished and would not be returning. Ultimately he was proved correct.

Now he has said he believes the Scampton show will not go ahead, based on information he has. So we can have another 300 post discussion about it if we want but that won't make it happen and it certainly won't make the relevant authorities change their minds.

To those who say he "must be just a delight to be around" - well I think he would be fine to be around. He calls a spade a shovel and just sticks to the pertinent information. Too many of the rest of you want to while away the hours discussing runway lengths and hard standing availability/ serviceability etc for an airshow that we have a strong indication that the RAF have no intention of ever holding.


"It's amazing really. I tell everyone that Waddington will never have an airshow again, whilst all you had to say was 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' getting hopes up for no reason. As it happens, that round finished n0143773 1-0 SilentFlight.

Now, I am here telling everyone there will be no airshow at Scampton, whilst again, all you have to say is 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' - hopefully people have learnt from last time, in advance of me taking a 2-0 lead over you."


Yes, ultimately he was correct. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. I take your point, but their needless point scoring (literally!) is not in the UKAR way, and it's a shame, that's all I mean. Obviously they can continue to post as they are, I just don't personally think it's a very clever way of making forum friends.

But what do I know :tongue2:

:pinkwafer:
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby XX752 on Thu 28 Jan 2016, 9:40 am

speedbird2639 wrote:
my ... issue is with the way they feel the need to rubbish the rest of the forum.


I don't think n0143773 is 'rubbishing' the rest of the forum. I feel that they are just privileged to be in a position where they have access to certain information which means they can give an indication of the likelihood of something coming to pass. For eg: - re Waddington we had a 300+ post thread discussing the suggestion that it may be cancelled. Quite early on in that thread n0143773 posted that information that they had access to seemed to very much indicate that Waddington airshow was finished and would not be returning. Ultimately he was proved correct.

Now he has said he believes the Scampton show will not go ahead, based on information he has. So we can have another 300 post discussion about it if we want but that won't make it happen and it certainly won't make the relevant authorities change their minds.

To those who say he "must be just a delight to be around" - well I think he would be fine to be around. He calls a spade a shovel and just sticks to the pertinent information. Too many of the rest of you want to while away the hours discussing runway lengths and hard standing availability/ serviceability etc for an airshow that we have a strong indication that the RAF have no intention of ever holding.


Or he was just lucky with his educated guess. Of all the forum members on here someone was bound to get it right by saying it would be cancelled at an early stage.
XX752

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby XX752 on Thu 28 Jan 2016, 9:43 am

Slappywag wrote:The operating from home base logic. Not for the sake of operating from elsewhere.


Which could not be applied again? Coningsby would be open as usual so as well as Typhoon solo, BBMF etc operating from there, for e.g Swiss F-18, PDF etc could also use the base for the short hop to Scampton? Even somewehere such as Humberside or Doncaster airports if really required.
XX752

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby XX752 on Thu 28 Jan 2016, 9:46 am

TouchDown wrote:
Nearby Coningsby, Cranwell, Waddington could all be used to support flying acts, as they often did when Waddington was in use.


No they didn't.


Depends how you define often and do you include station based aircraft - Typhoon, Tornado x 2 (Role Demo - Lossie based), BBMF operated from Coningsby, Tutor from Cranwell, on various display days between 2011 and 2014.

TD


Reds from Scampton, King Air from Cranwell, Seaking from Leconfield, RC135 flypast out of Mildenhall, Alpha Jets from Belguim, 3x Tornados from Cottesmore, various warbirds from Duxford. Regardless of where they are based, home or otherwise plenty didn't land on at Waddington over the years.
XX752

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby PeterR on Wed 03 Feb 2016, 6:34 pm

n0143773 wrote:
SilentFlight wrote: :wink: exactly on the nail, there is a very detailed plan, but the RAF hold the decision, which we will all have to wait for.


Now, I am here telling everyone there will be no airshow at Scampton, whilst again, all you have to say is 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' - hopefully people have learnt from last time, in advance of me taking a 2-0 lead over you.


Or we could see you proved wrong by those who are actually in the know, we will have to wait and see... :snack:
PeterR

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Tommy on Wed 03 Feb 2016, 8:21 pm

Got to be honest on this:

I mean this in the friendliest of ways, but in truth, I really, really, could not care one iota who knows what first, and who has what information before the authorities announce it... :dunno:
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Tommy
UKAR Staff

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby CJS on Wed 03 Feb 2016, 9:12 pm

But Tommy it's important. It really is. Imagine if you (not you) missed the chance to say I told you so. It'd be like bc not being the one to post first about a celebrity death ;-)

A question for Peter, which understandably he may or may not be able to answer - your extremely hard work notwithstanding, I was wondering if the cancellation of Waddington last year had any "official" bearing on Cosford, in respect of RAF or other involvement?

Just curious if the two teams did any teaming up - with Cosford being the only RAF show last year. Like I said, I don't mean to take anything away from what you achieved!
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Tommy on Wed 03 Feb 2016, 10:02 pm

CJS wrote:But Tommy it's important. It really is. Imagine if you (not you) missed the chance to say I told you so.


:grin:

You know the issue of "I told you so"? It's rarely about anything good. I'd much rather be wrong about something awesome, than right about something depressing, if I had to choose...
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Tommy
UKAR Staff

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby craig.mason on Thu 04 Feb 2016, 1:36 pm

There are a lot of negetive comments on here as regards a possible airshow at scampton next year i hope there is an airshow as it would be madness to turn down all the money raised for RAF and local charities
http://britishairshows.com/raf-scampton ... eturn.html
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craig.mason

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby Unknown74 on Thu 04 Feb 2016, 2:25 pm

The show in 1991 at Scampton was pretty good. Did anyone else go to that? I seem to remember Waddington was just starting out with E-3 Sentries and a NATO Aircraft landed as we were leaving to go South.
Unknown74

Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017?

Postby pb643 on Tue 09 Feb 2016, 3:46 pm

Unknown74 wrote:The show in 1991 at Scampton was pretty good. Did anyone else go to that? I seem to remember Waddington was just starting out with E-3 Sentries and a NATO Aircraft landed as we were leaving to go South.


I attended both airshows at Scampton held in recent decades. I must admit I tend to muddle which was which. One was a Reds anniversary with multiple display teams, which I think was midweek? The other was notable for the Russian An72 on static? I also remember seeing the EAP at one, I suspect the first. Anyone care to jog my memory.

To put my post back on topic, Scampton 2017, 18........ Not a chance, certainly not on a scale in any way comparable with Waddington. Both the previous events I have refereed to were tiny compared with Waddington. I have no figures to justify my comments, but having spent many weekends there in my youth, I am sure that the available areas of grass and hard standing is far less than Waddington, or maybe it is split differently to either side of the airfield.

I will be happy to be proved wrong. :smile:
pb643

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