Scampton Airshow 2018

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby qwerty on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 9:30 pm

Costs exceeded the income so how can you carry on when it made a loss?
qwerty

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby aviodromefriend on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 10:37 am

qwerty wrote:Costs exceeded the income so how can you carry on when it made a loss?
Call your loss costs associated with starting something new. It is not uncommon to do so. You can earn the money you need to pay that costs in the next few years. Normally banks allow this, as long as they have some confidence that that money can be earned in the next few years, and their client pays the interests that the bank wants to get.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 12:06 pm

This is a black mark against Andy Armstrong's name. Plenty of CEOs would have fallen on their swords in the face of such a public failure.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby canard67 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 1:07 pm

This show was doomed from the start . It was too far from DBH and it was just a couple of months after RIAT . I remember prior to the RIAT Cottesmore move, Finningley was looked at as an alternate to Fairford which was closing for resurfacing etc. It was rejected as being too far north for the sponsors and staff.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Spotty_Jag on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 3:46 pm

disgruntled wrote:It is without a doubt MoD civil servants (yes Civvies) that have drawn up legislation and rules that makes it difficult and in some cases impossible for the military to display their assets to the general public.
The Military Aviation Authority rules and regulations are written by serving military personnel, who work as part of the Defence Safety Authority, not Civil Servants.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby disgruntled on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 5:00 pm

Spotty_Jag wrote:
disgruntled wrote:It is without a doubt MoD civil servants (yes Civvies) that have drawn up legislation and rules that makes it difficult and in some cases impossible for the military to display their assets to the general public.
The Military Aviation Authority rules and regulations are written by serving military personnel, who work as part of the Defence Safety Authority, not Civil Servants.


Spotty, it is the policy of income generation that I refer to. This was brought in by the Blair/Brown government on advice from the treasury that ordered that the crown should not fund things like air displays, combat display teams, military bands, use of MoD property etc etc for anything that is not associated with state ceremonial or for the operational role for which it was funded. This is why you still get fairly well supported royal flypasts as they are considered state ceremonial. It has nothing to do with MAA regulations or the lack of desire of any of the 4*s. It is to do with Brown and Blair and the treasury advisors who decided that if you wanted any military assets you should pay for it.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Berf on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:30 pm

disgruntled wrote:
Spotty_Jag wrote:
disgruntled wrote:It is without a doubt MoD civil servants (yes Civvies) that have drawn up legislation and rules that makes it difficult and in some cases impossible for the military to display their assets to the general public.
The Military Aviation Authority rules and regulations are written by serving military personnel, who work as part of the Defence Safety Authority, not Civil Servants.


Spotty, it is the policy of income generation that I refer to. This was brought in by the Blair/Brown government on advice from the treasury that ordered that the crown should not fund things like air displays, combat display teams, military bands, use of MoD property etc etc for anything that is not associated with state ceremonial or for the operational role for which it was funded. This is why you still get fairly well supported royal flypasts as they are considered state ceremonial. It has nothing to do with MAA regulations or the lack of desire of any of the 4*s. It is to do with Brown and Blair and the treasury advisors who decided that if you wanted any military assets you should pay for it.



And all three services are short of personnel with today's young people seemingly disinterested in joining up - spot the connection....
Berf

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby speedbird2639 on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 6:57 pm

And all three services are short of personnel with today's young people seemingly disinterested in joining up - spot the connection....


To be honest I doubt there is any connection. More likely that today's youngster leaving education will probably have a degree or at least 'A' levels and going into he Armed Services simply isn't on their radar when country has the lowest unemployment level for 42 years. Why would you want a job which comes with a poor salary and notoriously bad accommodation and have someone with anger management issues shouting at you all day when you could get an apprenticeship in a nice warm office somewhere and you can sleep in your own bed at night.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Berf on Sat 16 Dec 2017, 10:17 pm

speedbird2639 wrote:
And all three services are short of personnel with today's young people seemingly disinterested in joining up - spot the connection....


To be honest I doubt there is any connection. More likely that today's youngster leaving education will probably have a degree or at least 'A' levels and going into he Armed Services simply isn't on their radar when country has the lowest unemployment level for 42 years. Why would you want a job which comes with a poor salary and notoriously bad accommodation and have someone with anger management issues shouting at you all day when you could get an apprenticeship in a nice warm office somewhere and you can sleep in your own bed at night.



Well we will have to disagree on that one and I hardly think every young person is leaving education with a degree or A levels. While having been very close to the services when young I might agree with you 35 plus years ago I am still often on RAF stations and it is a different world from then. As for poor salary - really take a look at this [url]RAF wages uk[/url]. It is only the very bottom seven in the first years that are below the national average wage of 26,300. (2016 - only figure I could find and yes the salaries are this year.) Add in housing assistance (Payment has been made to around 13,100 applicants, totalling around £197 million since the scheme began - it's an interest free loan for half your salary) and the picture is not as bad as you make out. While of course some will complain there are many outside of the services that will have no chance of getting on the housing ladder and will indeed be sleeping in their own bed - the same one as when they were a child. PS sorry thread drift I will comment no more!
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby st24 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:57 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:This is a black mark against Andy Armstrong's name. Plenty of CEOs would have fallen on their swords in the face of such a public failure.

Well a certain former CEO was enjoying KB spotters day and Sanicole show on the same weekend.... :whistle:
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby vulcan558 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:57 am

Was going to struggle with a price the same as the countries premier show price,
It was obvious you was not going to get a premier event.
What you got was the same as many local councils put on from our seaside towns,
So its a poor show from the so called experts of the field.when out done by cash strapped councils.

My hunch, was it just a tester for a move from Fairford incase this airfield becomes unavailable in the near future.

The dates for Scampton was a poor choice, waddington worked well with its dates so those dates should have been used.

We have seen in the past some of the foreign acts would do waddington then hang around for the week, then head for Fairford.

Sad are the times though that we do not have the RAF bases in charge of there shows like in the past.
vulcan558

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby D200 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:57 pm

The 'Battle of Britain at home' days of old were the UK military (invariably all three services) showing with much pride the taxpayer what they got for their money. The real estate, manpower, aircraft, and support services including fuel and accommodation were absorbed into the Defence Budget (paid for by said taxpayer). Nowadays all is paid for by the respective events. The RAF charge all airshows a fortune for displays and insurance; there is no discount for RAF events, although bizarrely the Navy and Army events do get discounts! To put figures onto this is a variable, but typically the Red Arrows display will cost in excess of £10k. Consider how many members of the public you have to get through the gate just to pay for the Red Arrows. It is eye watering how much it costs to have Crash Cat5 cover & Red Cross/Ambulance/First Aid installed over a long weekend especially if such coverage is not usually available Mon - Fri.

There can be no dispute that 2018 is the most important year in RAF history since its inception; with the Abingdon air show of 1968 a close second. Yet the RAF are in the news today (along with the Navy) accused by Government of being incapable of making the necessary savings to the Defence Budget demanded by the National Audit Office. Doubt has been cast as to the affordability of the P8 purchase; and by default the reintroduction of a MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) capability. Note the 'news' this week about the threat to national security due to communications cable cutting sub-surface; this is military politics in action. When headlines such as this threaten the next decade of UK Defence; the Defence Chiefs will ruthlessly ensure that their armour has no chinks in it for politicians to exploit. Thus far everybody on this forum has focused their thoughts and comments on Scampton Air Show - PR - and Management. The reality is that it is a far bigger picture than a public event. For many years I had forecast that the end of the Red Arrows would come at the end of the 2018 season to coincide with the end of Hawk T1. I am told that there are enough spares and Christmas tree aircraft to enable them to struggle on until 2030. The Royal Signals have this year disbanded the White Helmets display team - their only tool for recruitment. I can see folk both in uniform and suits looking very closely at RAFAT, BBMF, & The Falcons as luxury if desirable items that are expendable. Frankly when compared to the restoration of MPA aircraft and Tornado aircraft replacement; air displays do not even get a vote.

If the RAF pull their manpower support and what little goodwill exists, no air show is viable on military airfields, as the overheads to bring in such support is cost prohibitive. Civilian air shows are dropping like flies due to CAA charges and that trend will continue in the next year for sure. I guess in summary I would say do not look for a scapegoat be it individual or team; for it is symptomatic of the times in which we all live, and it will not get any better anytime soon.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Berf on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 2:26 pm

Well when hundreds of thousands can go to Sunderland or Bournemouth for free why bother paying for anywhere else?
Berf

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:09 pm

Berf wrote:Well when hundreds of thousands can go to Sunderland or Bournemouth for free why bother paying for anywhere else?


Because most of the events that you pay to attend are there to raise money for charity. You get a good day out, and a good cause gets a donation.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby st24 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:42 pm

The cynic in me looks at the enthusiast pleasing inclusion of the SwedAF historic flight albeit static only, as an elaborate sponge for funds from the participation budget, after all Draken, Viggen and Lansen don't run on fresh air! Without knowing the ins and outs I do wonder how much a chunk of the budget was taken by them and if it may even have caused an overspend...?? :confused:
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby vulcan558 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 4:13 pm

50 thousand + tickets average £40, do the maths on the budget they had.
If you took 200k from that, you would get a decent line up. 200k is a small percentage of the takings.
So the Reds cost 10k, they must be the biggest exspense. So you still have 190k.
vulcan558

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:08 pm

vulcan558 wrote:50 thousand + tickets average £40, do the maths on the budget they had.
If you took 200k from that, you would get a decent line up. 200k is a small percentage of the takings.
So the Reds cost 10k, they must be the biggest exspense. So you still have 190k.


I took a more conservative 30-40,000 , taking into account children etc, not sure if that is accurate. £1.2-1.6 million. It looks a huge sum, until you start removing the cost of hiring vehicles, tents, porta cabins, 50 doubledecker buses with drivers, generators, fencing, IT and security equipment etc etc. The cost of security and traffic management contractors for the roads, RAF Scampton and the showground, Feeding hundreds of volunteers a day, accommodation for volunteers and aircrew. The list goes on and on........

I have absolutely no idea of the costs of all of those items, but I can only imagine that the income disappears at a frightening rate. This is before you even consider the bill for aircraft participation, which must have been larger than any RIAT or Waddington show in recent years, purely as a result of having to buy in so many civilian acts. Any numbers around for RIAT display fees?

I would love to see a breakdown of costs and income, though as I mentioned earlier in the thread financial success was not meant to be a criteria for the show continuing into next year.

It would be most interesting to find out who covers any loss, assuming there is a loss and who made the decision to pull the plug on 2018?
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby st24 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:16 pm

vulcan558 wrote:50 thousand + tickets average £40, do the maths on the budget they had.
If you took 200k from that, you would get a decent line up. 200k is a small percentage of the takings.
So the Reds cost 10k, they must be the biggest exspense. So you still have 190k.

As pb has hinted at, that's a very simplistic breakdown Rich...
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Berf on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:45 pm

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Berf wrote:Well when hundreds of thousands can go to Sunderland or Bournemouth for free why bother paying for anywhere else?


Because most of the events that you pay to attend are there to raise money for charity. You get a good day out, and a good cause gets a donation.



Yes I accept that and indeed do as do many but there are many thousands who are maybe 'slightly air minded' or just want to take the kids somewhere and a free event will do. They do not need to bother with a 'paying event'.
Berf

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby capercaillie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:48 pm

st24 wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:50 thousand + tickets average £40, do the maths on the budget they had.
If you took 200k from that, you would get a decent line up. 200k is a small percentage of the takings.
So the Reds cost 10k, they must be the biggest exspense. So you still have 190k.

As pb has hinted at, that's a very simplistic breakdown Rich...


Simplistic is a very polite word Mr S, if I'd have come up with that, a P45 would be heading my way rapidly! :grin:
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:56 pm

Berf wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Berf wrote:Well when hundreds of thousands can go to Sunderland or Bournemouth for free why bother paying for anywhere else?


Because most of the events that you pay to attend are there to raise money for charity. You get a good day out, and a good cause gets a donation.



Yes I accept that and indeed do as do many but there are many thousands who are maybe 'slightly air minded' or just want to take the kids somewhere and a free event will do. They do not need to bother with a 'paying event'.


Lincolnshire is not ideally positioned for most of the free seaside events. The only one within a reasonable driving time would be Cleethorpes and I am not 100% sure it was free? I suspect the "slightly air minded" are less likely to travel to Southport, Rhyll, Bournemouth or the displays in the North East.
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby D200 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 6:14 am

I have heard on the grapevine the size of financial loss, but will not repeat it without verification as rumour control is not conducive to fair play. Suffice to say it was sizeable.

The point of focus that I am hearing about is the Park & Ride. I didn't go so know nothing about the P&R, but I do know that if it involved hiring real estate then the cost could have been eye watering. The reason is that landowners need to recoupe the cost of a harvest potential. Likewise any other land that normally generates an income for its owner will cost compensation for loss plus some. Perhaps those who did attend the show can advise how the P&R was operated. If P&R was/is essential, and costs prohibitive, then the show is done. Military land at Kirton in Lyndsey has been sold to property developers and so is unavailable.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby boff180 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:33 am

The P&R operated from the Showground via a network of closed roads around the airfield, no farmers fields were used.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:10 am

They may have been a cost associated with the Lincolnshire Showground?. I don't know and don't wish to speculate. The P&R did look a very impressive operation on the day, and I can't imagine it came cheap.

I parked on the airfield, and I have to say there didn't seem all that much room. Without a viable alternative that would leave the venue untenable. Some serious cost cutting on the P&R is the key then? risky, as its the first thing people moan about these days.. getting in and out, but surely better than no event at all.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby jonny7 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:59 am

Wrexham Mackem wrote:They may have been a cost associated with the Lincolnshire Showground?. I don't know and don't wish to speculate. The P&R did look a very impressive operation on the day, and I can't imagine it came cheap.

I parked on the airfield, and I have to say there didn't seem all that much room. Without a viable alternative that would leave the venue untenable. Some serious cost cutting on the P&R is the key then? risky, as its the first thing people moan about these days.. getting in and out, but surely better than no event at all.


Were you working at the show on the week end?, just intrigued how some people parked on the show ground and some on the airfield.
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