Scampton Airshow 2018

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:22 am

Were you working at the show on the week end?, just intrigued how some people parked on the show ground and some on the airfield.


No, I had grandstand tickets. Any of the enclosures or upgrades came with on-site parking. That was widely publicised at the time, to be fair to the organisers.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:57 am

Wrexham Mackem wrote:They may have been a cost associated with the Lincolnshire Showground?. I don't know and don't wish to speculate. The P&R did look a very impressive operation on the day, and I can't imagine it came cheap.

I parked on the airfield, and I have to say there didn't seem all that much room. Without a viable alternative that would leave the venue untenable. Some serious cost cutting on the P&R is the key then? risky, as its the first thing people moan about these days.. getting in and out, but surely better than no event at all.


I would be most surprised if there was not some cost associated with using the showground, that is how it earns its income, be it antique fairs etc etc. There would also be significant cost associated with car parking staff, traffic management (I can't recall if that was all one contractor) and the hire of 48 double decker buses, drivers and other Stagecoach staff. I have no idea of the scale of these costs. I am also fairly certain that it was mentioned in one of the preshow meetings, that arrangements had been put in place for parking on surrounding farmland in future years. I don't know if anyone can confirm that?
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 12:02 pm

People who paid for enclosure passes had parking on the airfield. General admission was P&R.

FWIW, I too thought the P&R was about as good as you could have hoped for - it was a swift service both in and out from my perspective.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby vulcanshammer on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 1:05 pm

The P&R was superb. I actually thought they had overdone it. Many of the buses were parked up and appeared expendable. I had never seen so many double deckers in one place.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby The Baron on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 2:01 pm

The P&R, use of the showground etc are all costs that should have been known in advance. Hence, possibly, the high end ticket prices. None of that should be a surprise. What is a surprise, to me at any rate, is that they're effectively pulling the plug after just one year. No new enterprise makes a profit in year 1. I think it goes deeper than simply 'making a loss'.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 6:42 pm

Presumably, given how quick UKAR is these days to spread positive PR releases at DBH's behest a request is already in with Andy Armstrong for a full and frank interview covering quite how he and his staff got Scampton so badly wrong first time out that they're not willing to try again?

It's easy to post the good news, but UKAR has always stepped up to ask the difficult questions too. One hopes that is still the case.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:01 pm

Again, my solution for the future may be simple, but the remedy is, as all greed pick a weekend which if its going to clash at all will only do so with the seafronters. Next lift the ticket in advance only policy and et folk turn up at the gate. In respect of the last point then yes, neighbouring fields and on airfield parking will be necessary, but it should work out. Yeovilton seem to use nothing but surrounding farm fields and the lst three military show to go down the hatch; Leuchars, Waddington and Culdrose, still used on airfield parking up the last. :cuppa:

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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:42 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:.. got Scampton so badly wrong first time out that they're not willing to try again?


That needs correcting. They haven't said they aren't willing to try again. The event has been postponed, not cancelled. There may be many reasons why its not happening next year, and many lessons learned from this year that can be applied in future. Or not.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:09 pm

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:.. got Scampton so badly wrong first time out that they're not willing to try again?


That needs correcting. They haven't said they aren't willing to try again. The event has been postponed, not cancelled. There may be many reasons why its not happening next year, and many lessons learned from this year that can be applied in future. Or not.


As far as I am aware, it is still not clear who has pulled the plug on the 2018 show? MOD/RAF at some level or the RAFCTE. Probably whoever has had to cover any losses? Unless things have changed the RAF benevolent fund as was, was not allowed to risk any financial loss.
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby aviodromefriend on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 9:58 am

pb643 wrote:Unless things have changed the RAF benevolent fund as was, was not allowed to risk any financial loss.
But RAFCT is an independent charity, which has little more than from what it was formed from to do with RAFBF.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 11:26 am

aviodromefriend wrote:
pb643 wrote:Unless things have changed the RAF benevolent fund as was, was not allowed to risk any financial loss.
But RAFCT is an independent charity, which has little more than from what it was formed from to do with RAFBF.


I assumed rightly or wrongly that is a principle they will have stuck with?

When I say the Benevolent fund, I mean the organisers of IAT/RIAT in its previous incarnations.
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby TornadoAlex on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 1:30 pm

Sad news I for one was looking forward to Scampton 2018 especially with the RAF's birthday sadly many people today prefer to spend their spare time "enjoying" themselves walking round shopping centres like zombies :hypno: rather than doing something interesting or exciting like attending an airshow.

Take Cheshire Oaks as an example every weekend is the same mile long tailback countless police cars and bikes just to marshal people into a god forsaken shopping complex people actually choose this abject misery what a clown act :clown:

The joy and excitement of an airshow is a recent thing for me I first attended a show in 2014 since then I have been hooked. Going a bit off topic but for many years I have attended motorsport events (oulton park especially) and often I think to myself where is everyone why do so few attend something so exciting and worthwhile?

I think one of the issues is cultural back in the day people would attend events now all they want to do is sit in and watch Netflix or whatever. My view may be simplistic but I am certain modern day culture has a lot to do with current situation.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby capercaillie on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 1:59 pm

And that was thought for the day. :smile:
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby BossMann on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 2:09 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Presumably, given how quick UKAR is these days to spread positive PR releases at DBH's behest a request is already in with Andy Armstrong for a full and frank interview covering quite how he and his staff got Scampton so badly wrong first time out that they're not willing to try again?

It's easy to post the good news, but UKAR has always stepped up to ask the difficult questions too. One hopes that is still the case.


Good luck with this Dan – it would be great to get answers from the organisers about ‘how they got it wrong’ and what their actual plan is regarding returning with another show in 2019?

We are all supporters of RIAT/ Waddington and wanted the Scampton show to be a worthy successor of Waddington/Leuchars but we were all worried about the following right from the start:
1. Clash with Sanicole – this proved to take virtually every foreign display away from Scampton
2. Overpriced tickets – who, why and how was it decided on £39 for a 5 hour flying display
3. 5 hour flying display versus 7 for Waddington versus 8 for RIAT for the price of a RIAT ticket
4. The poor flying display content which we now know failed to attract the public (the target ‘family’ audience for this show), it could not attract the foreign military but even the UK RAF Tutor/ Chinook, Army Apache/Red Devils, Navy Raiders stayed away
5. Why the P&R from Lincolnshire showground was used versus farmers fields surrounding Scampton
6. Why RAFCTE were failing to engage with us on forums such as this for Scampton but continuing to engage on the RIAT threads

We had all expressed our concerns on here but the RAFCTE for the first time failed to engage with us. We were all expecting some foreign aircraft displays list to be announced post RIAT but all we got was a gyrocopter, anson and Pembroke.
This show was upstaged by Yeovilton, Biggin Hill, Dunsfold and Cosford which were all cheaper and boasted much better and longer flying displays. Even Cleethorpes Armed forces day managed a 3 hour flying display for free.
Waddington and Leuchars both managed to co-exist with RIAT and both had excellent flying displays in recent years - Waddington 2012 comes to mind with the Black Eagles debut, which had massive foreign participation and was on par with RIAT. Therefore what is the problem with Scampton?
If RAFCTE charge RIAT prices then they should deliver a ‘RIAT North’ which is clearly what we and joe public wanted, the family oriented scampton show failed for whatever reason.

With the experience and contacts they have I was a little disappointed at the lack of foreign flying participation at Scampton. I had always thought it as the Red Arrows home base would have been like other shows at the home bases of Frecce Tricolori/ Patrouille de France/ Patrulla Aguila, i.e. an aerobatic team meet with other fast jet/ helicopter displays added in.....

Lots of us on UKAR decided to go to Sanicole and were not disappointed, those that had committed themselves to Scampton supported the show (myself included) and agreed that the P&R was great and that the show had great potential but needed a better and longer flying display. On the Sunday it did seem very empty where we were standing. But the post show PR hailed the show as ‘huge success’ ??
I had even suggested a ‘FRIAT style Scampton Airshow forum’ so that we could engage directly with the organisers and help them make it a success.
I do hope the event will come back in 2019 for the Red Arrows 55th Anniversary, but clearly they got their model/ business plan wrong this year, I hope that this can be overcome for the show to be a success that it deserves to be.
BossMann

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby boff180 on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 3:17 pm

May have something to do with the complete “it’ll never work” attitude shown towards the show from day 1 by a number of people on here.... would you voluntarily engage with hostility if you know that many of those showing that hostility will regardles or just get on with your job?

Re: dates. Any show in the local area absolutely relies on the Lincoln universities for accommodation. Any show is hostage to when the universities can provide that accommodation. There is no availability on base without refurbishing all the derelict barracks and no other local bases have any capacity - let alone Hotels having enough beds.

Due to their own academic/commercial activities this accommodation is only available 2 or 3 weekends a year... one being the traditional Waddington weekend which is, I’m sure you’ll agree, far too close to RIAT for the same team to even attempt to organise.

In order for the show to even go ahead later in the year, at least one of the universities moved their traditional term dates by a full week.

Picking show dates that can be organised and that don’t clash with other major shows isn’t as simple as many naively appear to believe on here.

Andy
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby aviodromefriend on Wed 20 Dec 2017, 5:45 pm

boff180 wrote:would you voluntarily engage with hostility if you know that many of those showing that hostility will regardles or just get on with your job?
Maybe not voluntarily, but some of the people at DBH are full time paid staff. When the thing at Fairford meets criticism they do come online and engage with their critics. Not sure how many times they did when the discussion was about Scampton... Just guessing they were too busy organising RIAT, then winding down RIAT and running East Fortune and then found out that there was still another show around the corner.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 1:34 am

Sometime in the early run up to the display I asked the organisers what they meant by their mission statement that this was going to be a Family show? To me this did not bode well for anyone expecting to see anything different to what we got. I can't recall the explanation I got back but it was the usual bland statement aimed at deflection. My point being that all air shows are for the family, but to make a point of it seems to suggest; Anson, Pitts, BBMF and Red Arrows rather than; Polish F-16, Typhoon, Frecce and Red Arrows. I think September is the best month to hold it in, but they should look to hold it on the first weekend, Students should not be back from summer hols, only seafront air shows to clash of which Scampton should prevail over attracting military participation. Also, allow tickets to be sold on the day and more on site parking.

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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:42 am

Finningley Boy wrote: My point being that all air shows are for the family, but to make a point of it seems to suggest; Anson, Pitts, BBMF and Red Arrows rather than; Polish F-16, Typhoon, Frecce and Red Arrows.
FB :biggrin:


Yup, all airshows are family shows, although RIAT is rather hard core for my family, and I go without them. My interpretation of what it meant for Scampton is that it is smaller, more compact and accessible than RIAT, which makes it an ideal family day out. I can't see how it refers to the participation, as when the marketing approach was decided they wouldn't have known what military participation they'd been allocated. I'm certain they will have applied for it and gladly taken what was offered.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby BossMann on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:19 am

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote: My point being that all air shows are for the family, but to make a point of it seems to suggest; Anson, Pitts, BBMF and Red Arrows rather than; Polish F-16, Typhoon, Frecce and Red Arrows.
FB :biggrin:


Yup, all airshows are family shows, although RIAT is rather hard core for my family, and I go without them. My interpretation of what it meant for Scampton is that it is smaller, more compact and accessible than RIAT, which makes it an ideal family day out. I can't see how it refers to the participation, as when the marketing approach was decided they wouldn't have known what military participation they'd been allocated. I'm certain they will have applied for it and gladly taken what was offered.


Exactly my point, RIAT is also marketed as a 'family' airshow but the participation definitely more towards the enthusiast taste which is also enjoyed by families too (if they choose to go) but which is why the show sells out, if RIAT had the same flying display as Scampton 2017 would it sell out? Do families not enjoy the national aerobatic teams or military fast jet displays/ helicopter displays versus Gyrocopter/ Anson? RACFTE should stick to what they do best - military airshows! thats what Scampton should be. Both RIAT and Scampton could complement each other with displays that cannot attend RIAT could still come to Scampton in the same year.

When was the last time a Gyrocopter appeared in a RIAT flying programme?

Strangely RAFCTE did a great job of organising a seaside airshow when they used to do the flying displays at Eastbourne: USAF B-1B full flying display, KC135/ C130 flypasts, Belgian F16/ Fouga Magister/ Seaking, Dutch F16/ PC7/ AB412, Jordanian Falcons, French Mirage 2000 demo

The good thing here is that RAFCTE have realised they got it wrong and it didn't sell tickets and wasn't the huge success it was made out to be, they have time to reflect and hopefully will look at comments on forums such as this to enable them to return in 2019 with a much better product that will be a success - hopefully they will come back with a RIAT North which is what I would personally like to see but as mentioned above with the USP of the Red Arrows home base could have more national aerobatic team displays mixed in with fast jets/ helicopters/ parachute teams.

Anyways with regards to 2019, Sanicole has moved its show a week back to the 14-15th September leaving Scampton's existing weekend free (7-8th September) if they choose to stick to this date ( as dictated by the Uni of Lincoln as mentioned by Andy above ). This should work for the Red Arrows 55th Anniversary Airshow if RAFCTE choose to go ahead with another show at Scampton.
BossMann

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:32 am

BossMann wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote: My point being that all air shows are for the family, but to make a point of it seems to suggest; Anson, Pitts, BBMF and Red Arrows rather than; Polish F-16, Typhoon, Frecce and Red Arrows.
FB :biggrin:


Yup, all airshows are family shows, although RIAT is rather hard core for my family, and I go without them. My interpretation of what it meant for Scampton is that it is smaller, more compact and accessible than RIAT, which makes it an ideal family day out. I can't see how it refers to the participation, as when the marketing approach was decided they wouldn't have known what military participation they'd been allocated. I'm certain they will have applied for it and gladly taken what was offered.


Exactly my point, RIAT is also marketed as a 'family' airshow but the participation definitely more towards the enthusiast taste which is also enjoyed by families too (if they choose to go) but which is why the show sells out, if RIAT had the same flying display as Scampton 2017 would it sell out? Do families not enjoy the national aerobatic teams or military fast jet displays/ helicopter displays versus Gyrocopter/ Anson? RACFTE should stick to what they do best - military airshows! thats what Scampton should be. Both RIAT and Scampton could complement each other with displays that cannot attend RIAT could still come to Scampton in the same year.



But military participation can't be 'booked'. DBH will have applied for consideration, then its out of their hands. As it happened, most of the military particpants declined to come leaving space that had to be filled in order to present a flying display. Which one presumes had to be done within a budget.

Make no mistake, if the organisers had got luckier with military allocations, your gyrocopter and Anson are unlikely to have been there.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby BossMann on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:25 pm

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
BossMann wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote: My point being that all air shows are for the family, but to make a point of it seems to suggest; Anson, Pitts, BBMF and Red Arrows rather than; Polish F-16, Typhoon, Frecce and Red Arrows.
FB :biggrin:


Yup, all airshows are family shows, although RIAT is rather hard core for my family, and I go without them. My interpretation of what it meant for Scampton is that it is smaller, more compact and accessible than RIAT, which makes it an ideal family day out. I can't see how it refers to the participation, as when the marketing approach was decided they wouldn't have known what military participation they'd been allocated. I'm certain they will have applied for it and gladly taken what was offered.


Exactly my point, RIAT is also marketed as a 'family' airshow but the participation definitely more towards the enthusiast taste which is also enjoyed by families too (if they choose to go) but which is why the show sells out, if RIAT had the same flying display as Scampton 2017 would it sell out? Do families not enjoy the national aerobatic teams or military fast jet displays/ helicopter displays versus Gyrocopter/ Anson? RACFTE should stick to what they do best - military airshows! thats what Scampton should be. Both RIAT and Scampton could complement each other with displays that cannot attend RIAT could still come to Scampton in the same year.



But military participation can't be 'booked'. DBH will have applied for consideration, then its out of their hands. As it happened, most of the military particpants declined to come leaving space that had to be filled in order to present a flying display. Which one presumes had to be done within a budget.

Make no mistake, if the organisers had got luckier with military allocations, your gyrocopter and Anson are unlikely to have been there.


Can't argue with you there, they seem to have mis-judged the opposition of going head to head with the Sanicole show. What made it worse for Scampton was that it wasn't just the military displays that chose Sanicole, civilian displays such as the Brietling Jet team/ Blades also went to there too so perhaps there wasn't much left to choose from.

The following weekend the Ostrava NATO-Czech Air days/ Athens Flying week/ Sion International Air Show all clashed but all of them got an equal share of foreign military participation. Don't really know why the foreign military didn't want to come to RAF Scampton, especially it being the RAF Red Arrows base....

The said gyrocopter was confirmed for Scampton in April 2017 - it wasn't a last minute addition to fill the gaps as such which I guess the Anson and Pembroke were... It was odd however that the RAF Tutor/ Chinook and AAC Apache demo also were not there either which would have significantly helped to boost the flying display.

Anyway I hope that the RAFCTE team will come back in 2019 and have another go at Scampton Airshow, or whatever they wish to re-name it if they want to start from scratch with a 'new' military show.
BossMann

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:27 pm

BossMann wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
BossMann wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Finningley Boy wrote: My point being that all air shows are for the family, but to make a point of it seems to suggest; Anson, Pitts, BBMF and Red Arrows rather than; Polish F-16, Typhoon, Frecce and Red Arrows.
FB :biggrin:


Yup, all airshows are family shows, although RIAT is rather hard core for my family, and I go without them. My interpretation of what it meant for Scampton is that it is smaller, more compact and accessible than RIAT, which makes it an ideal family day out. I can't see how it refers to the participation, as when the marketing approach was decided they wouldn't have known what military participation they'd been allocated. I'm certain they will have applied for it and gladly taken what was offered.


Exactly my point, RIAT is also marketed as a 'family' airshow but the participation definitely more towards the enthusiast taste which is also enjoyed by families too (if they choose to go) but which is why the show sells out, if RIAT had the same flying display as Scampton 2017 would it sell out? Do families not enjoy the national aerobatic teams or military fast jet displays/ helicopter displays versus Gyrocopter/ Anson? RACFTE should stick to what they do best - military airshows! thats what Scampton should be. Both RIAT and Scampton could complement each other with displays that cannot attend RIAT could still come to Scampton in the same year.



But military participation can't be 'booked'. DBH will have applied for consideration, then its out of their hands. As it happened, most of the military particpants declined to come leaving space that had to be filled in order to present a flying display. Which one presumes had to be done within a budget.

Make no mistake, if the organisers had got luckier with military allocations, your gyrocopter and Anson are unlikely to have been there.


Can't argue with you there, they seem to have mis-judged the opposition of going head to head with the Sanicole show. What made it worse for Scampton was that it wasn't just the military displays that chose Sanicole, civilian displays such as the Brietling Jet team/ Blades also went to there too so perhaps there wasn't much left to choose from.

The following weekend the Ostrava NATO-Czech Air days/ Athens Flying week/ Sion International Air Show all clashed but all of them got an equal share of foreign military participation. Don't really know why the foreign military didn't want to come to RAF Scampton, especially it being the RAF Red Arrows base....

The said gyrocopter was confirmed for Scampton in April 2017 - it wasn't a last minute addition to fill the gaps as such which I guess the Anson and Pembroke were... It was odd however that the RAF Tutor/ Chinook and AAC Apache demo also were not there either which would have significantly helped to boost the flying display.

Anyway I hope that the RAFCTE team will come back in 2019 and have another go at Scampton Airshow, or whatever they wish to re-name it if they want to start from scratch with a 'new' military show.


Amen to that! :worship:

And if I may make a suggestion, call it the Battle of Britain At Home Days!

FB :biggrin:
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Finningley Boy

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Berf on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 7:36 pm

BossMann wrote: Don't really know why the foreign military didn't want to come to RAF Scampton, especially it being the RAF Red Arrows base....


Because they have already supported RIAT and numerous displays in their own countries infront of their own taxpayers as well as many other countries to visit. I am amazed at the amount of foreign participation the UK gets for its paltry efforts overseas over the years. The Typhoon and Red Arrows by and large only go were they think the UK may flog something.
Berf

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 10:41 pm

Berf wrote:
BossMann wrote: Don't really know why the foreign military didn't want to come to RAF Scampton, especially it being the RAF Red Arrows base....


Because they have already supported RIAT and numerous displays in their own countries infront of their own taxpayers as well as many other countries to visit. I am amazed at the amount of foreign participation the UK gets for its paltry efforts overseas over the years. The Typhoon and Red Arrows by and large only go were they think the UK may flog something.


Indeed, I think we only got the Belgian F-16 at Scampton this year because the Tiffy solo did the evening only display at Sanicole. :cuppa:

FB :biggrin:
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Finningley Boy

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Chrisse on Fri 22 Dec 2017, 8:01 am

Finningley Boy wrote:Indeed, I think we only got the Belgian F-16 at Scampton this year because the Tiffy solo did the evening only display at Sanicole. :cuppa:

FB :biggrin:


Uhm no, and it didn't :cuppa: :biggrin:
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