Scampton Airshow 2018

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby BossMann on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:47 am

As mentioned on the RIAT thread

Will any of you guys attending the FRIAT forum be able to get any more info on the RAFCTE's second airshow at Scampton??? I have heard that the airshow office at Scampton has closed.... As DBH never discussed the Scampton show with the pubic to get their views on want they want the RIAT forum may be a portal for the Friends of RIAT to help shape the event at RAF Scampton, if DBH want to listen.

Will it ever return?

Will it be in September or go back to RAF Waddington International Airshow's July dates?

After the huge flop of 'Scampton Airshow' all over the public media resulting in its cancellation/ postponement will the airshow at RAF Scampton return with a different name/ identity? e.g. 'International Air Tattoo North'?
BossMann

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby cg_341 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 12:55 pm

BossMann wrote:After the huge flop of 'Scampton Airshow' all over the public media resulting in its cancellation/ postponement...

Have I missed something there?
cg_341

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby BossMann on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 3:13 pm

Post show press releases hailed it a ' huge success' but it made a loss, which we only found out when there was no information on the 2018 event and then the press release on 14th December

"Scampton Airshow, held for the first time in September, attracted about 50,000 visitors over two days.

It is understood the loss was due to higher-than-expected costs and a lack of ticket sales.

Organisers said they wanted time to fully consider lessons learned and hoped to return in 2019."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-42358391

Perhaps not as big as a flop as the 'RAF's Spirit of Adventure at Abingdon' but what we thought was a massive success was not successful financially so hence the cancellation/ postponement - the statement also issued by DBH also doesn't say clearly if it will definitely return in 2019 with just an 'ambition' to run an event in 2019.

We all went and supported the show in its first year. Good location, lots of history behind it, park and view worked really well, good static but poor military flying display with poor overseas participation for a RIAT price looks like couldn't attract the visitors. Not helped that it clashed with Sanicole which had virtually every foreign display possible. This has all been discussed before.

What we should concentrate on is the future of the show and how DBH can make it work, not what happened last year - they can learn from their mistakes and only improve. However, the only forum where they can be questioned/ we can get any information is the FRIAT forum.

Lets hope that DBH can realise their ambition of running another show at RAF Scampton in 2019, the Red Arrows 55th Anniversary year.
BossMann

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby boff180 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 7:32 pm

I’d suggest FRIAT forum is not the time or place. It’s a briefing for FRIAT members about RIAT - not Scampton. They’re there for that and that’s what it’s been advertised as.

There wasn’t a forum last year and if this one is hijacked with questions about a different Airshow it could possibly jeaporise future ones too.

I appreciate people think they’re owed answers but there is a time and a place. ;-)
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Chris G on Sat 24 Feb 2018, 7:15 am

Why not? People, some might say quite rightly want answers. Seaside line up for RIAT prices! Maybe being on the voluntary side of this event has resulted in a conflict of interest. Perhaps Mr O'Hagen should do the Friat forum as at least he has testicular fortitude to ask the questions that need answers, or perhaps given UKAR's standing go after the team for an in depth interview so they can at least get their side across in a decent manner and not look like they're hiding behind closed doors.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:32 am

Nobody has any right whatsoever to demand answers. I can understand why you’re curious. But we have no entitlement whatsoever to demand answers from within a private company. And those folks would be quite within their rights to say “none of your business”.

As for time and place, the FRIAT forum is about RIAT. Not Scampton. They are separate entities.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby aviodromefriend on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:19 pm

Wrexham Mackem wrote:As for time and place, the FRIAT forum is about RIAT. Not Scampton. They are separate entities.
I seem to recall though, that DBH mentioned Scampton (and their plans overthere) during their last FRIAT forum themselves, so they seem to be not so strict in those separate entities. Asking shouldn't be much of a problem, if you get an answer is up to them.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby UK Airshow Review on Sun 13 May 2018, 9:09 pm

"The Fall" - Tom Jones sat down for a short debrief with Andy Armstrong and Tom Gibbons of the RAFCTE on behalf of UK Airshow Review.

Image Image Image Image Image
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Flare Path on Sun 13 May 2018, 9:52 pm

Very interesting read - appreciate UKAR and Tom J for putting it together. :up:

Without knowing the current situation completely, I would be very surprised if they're able to find the time to plan for Scampton 2019 this year (beyond that I would also remain sceptical). Clearly, 2017 did not deliver all of their expectations and they will not compromise the importance of this years Air Tattoo to rectify that so soon (rightly so). In addition, the weak demand surprised (hurt?) their ambitions moving forward with this as a definite future event.

PS - £39 may be value for money in the South-West, but not up North. :grin:
Flare Path

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby The Baron on Mon 14 May 2018, 5:10 am

It's not Waddington down the road but it's the same price...
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 14 May 2018, 9:55 am

Sounds to me like there's little chance of a return for this show.

I hope i'm wrong - and time will tell. I enjoyed Scampton and thought it had potential to be a really decent little airshow, although the venue - to me - had numerous flaws. If only they could work with Waddington!
MiG_Eater

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby capercaillie on Mon 14 May 2018, 1:25 pm

£39 was good value for money, £39 was the right price, £39 was the same as Waddington (if you took a child), £39 was right in the marketplace. :sleepy:

No, it was too expensive for what was provided.

You cannot justify the price against Waddington if you take a child, if that's the case have separate prices for adults and children. It was near enough the same price as RIAT, how can you justify the price against that? It was £14 more expensive than Cosford last year. Even if you did manage to apprehend a child and drag it with you, its nowhere near the show Waddington was.

A hands up confession to it being overpriced for what was on offer would have gone down far better than trying to justify the price. Too much for too little. :surrender:
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby JJC on Mon 14 May 2018, 1:59 pm

This is an area of the country where there is demand for an airshow, albeit less than people led us to believe
...really? :tumbleweed:

Nothing to do with the substandard line-up at a premium price being undesirable for many of us then?

I don’t think the issue is solely that there’s ‘less demand than people led us to believe’ for a show in Lincolnshire, just less demand than they wanted there to be for a seaside show on an RAF base. Waddington International Airshow’s success year-on-year and Scampton’s rocky innaugral show goes a long way to dispel the falecious argument that families don’t care about the displays in attendance.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby MiG_Eater on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:03 pm

JJC you are dead right.

I booked up well in advance to attend Scampton for 5 days. At the end of the show I had enjoyed myself despite the terrible weather (and missing the Swedish departures) - especially in the knowledge that this was a show that would be built on and would most likely be much bigger in the RAF's centenary year. As soon as I heard that the show had been cancelled this year (after I had already booked my hotel!) I immediately felt that this was the end of the show.

What a shame.
MiG_Eater

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:23 pm

Scampton was too expensive for what was a seaside line-up with knobs on.

At best it was horribly mis-judged by a team who one would hope knew better. At worst it was a cynical, lazy, tossed-off-in-their-tea-break-from-RIAT, it'll-do effort which failed to hoodwink those with the intelligence to see it for exactly what it was. Only Farnborough insults its audience with line-ups as weak as that for prices as high, and you can argue that Farnborough's prices are in some way due to the show's location in the South-East. To ask £40 for a show more full of filler than Jocelyn Wildenstein in the middle of rural Lincolnshire was asking for trouble. And the public treated it with the contempt it deserved.

DBH got this horribly wrong, and spread themselves far too thinly. If Scampton was to return, it should be in the hands of a completely new and dedicated team who know the area, know the market and know that a premium price tag needs to deliver a premium show.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby harkins on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:34 pm

I appreciate that there were many aspects to the outcome, but I too can't accept that there wasn't the demand. I'm sure that the difference between families and enthusiasts isn't quite as vast as is being made out. Is an enthusiast with children welcome or not? Why would families be put off by a predominantly fast jet military show? RIAT doesn't appear to have put off families in the least. Almost everyone is an enthusiast to some extent these days and any family that might even consider going to an airshow will know the difference between a B-2 and a microlight and will have a preference for the former. I really can't see why an airshow can't be pitched at everyone. RIAT achieves it without shadow of a doubt.

I am pretty sure the price was too high.
I am pretty sure that if some more military hardware - especially from overseas could have attracted more families and enthusiasts.
I'm pretty sure the time of year isn't the crux of the problem. No time is perfect but at the end of the holidays likely meant less event and holiday clashes.
I'm pretty sure that given this is the UK that the appalling weather can strike at any point through the summer. Air Tattoo 2008? Two in every 3 Woodford airshows? If you're going to let the risk of bad weather put you off you'd never organise anything outdoors in this country.

I can accept that organising a second airshow is a very big ask for the organisers of the Air Tattoo.

Maybe the key things were that there wasn't enough time available to advertise the show sufficiently, there wasn't enough big ticket flying items to announce on social media in the run-up (today's best form of advertising?), the price was set too high and that it was simply too big an ask for the same people as RIAT to organise a completely new event.

Was the assistance of the Waddington organisers not used or possible in order to share some of the burden?

Interesting to see that the RAF have been pretty much absolved of any responsibility of it not occurring again this year. And that's a great thing as that means that there is hope it can come back bigger and stronger.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:47 pm

Rhetoric aside, prices have to be set based on covering costs and generating some profit, before display assets from military air arms have been assigned. So there was always going to be that gamble - that you don't get the support you'd hoped for. Personally, I'm a little surprised at the lack of support from forces at home and overseas, and that it also came as such as surprise to the organisers, but that's where they found themselves.

What are the organisers to do then? buying in flying display content costs even more money. So at that point you're stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. Can't really cut the prices, because you won't cover your costs. And the extra content you buy in leaves you open to 'filler/seaside' scorn.

The event obviously wasn't cheap to stage, and given a decent weather forecast who's to say they wouldn't have got it over the line. What I find strange personally though is that there's obviously a notional tariff out there based on what flies. I took my girls, it wasn't a bad value day out, but I can't say I looked at the price and thought "for that money I should have the Frecce Tricolori or a MiG-29, or three times as many warbirds, or x number of Pitts"...
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby XP282 on Tue 15 May 2018, 11:52 am

It sounds like a load of rubbish to me.

They are blaming the lack of ticket sales, yet they say 50,000 people passed though the gates. That's at least as many (and I think more) tickets than they expected / planned to sell. I was lead to believe that they were capping tickets at 40,000 for the first year (20,000 per day). So they show effectively 'sold out' yet it still made a huge loss. If you sell out and still make a loss then there is a fundamental flaw in the business plan.

I don't think it was anything to do with the team at Scampton. I think the problem was the people pulling the strings 100+ miles away at fairford.

A very sad end to what could have been a great annual event.
XP282

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Tommy on Tue 15 May 2018, 12:52 pm

XP282 wrote:They are blaming the lack of ticket sales, yet they say 50,000 people passed though the gates. That's at least as many (and I think more) tickets than they expected / planned to sell.
(my emphasis)

I guess you missed this part then:

From the point of view of the Airshow business plan, how many tickets did you expect to sell, compared to the 50,000 that came through the gates?

We got 75% of what we expected.
(my emphasis)

So, I'm unsure which person, metal, or otherwise, allowed you to believe the cap at 40,000.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby XP282 on Tue 15 May 2018, 1:09 pm

Tommy wrote:
XP282 wrote:They are blaming the lack of ticket sales, yet they say 50,000 people passed though the gates. That's at least as many (and I think more) tickets than they expected / planned to sell.
(my emphasis)

I guess you missed this part then:

From the point of view of the Airshow business plan, how many tickets did you expect to sell, compared to the 50,000 that came through the gates?

We got 75% of what we expected.
(my emphasis)

So, I'm unsure which person, metal, or otherwise, allowed you to believe the cap at 40,000.


Tommy, that would imply that the cap was ~75,000? I attended 3 meetings with air show organisers at RAF Scampton. On every occasion we were told that there was a cap. I don't want to quote the cap as I cant be 100% sure what it was now, but I was less than 75,000. I know that because I remember thinking it was too low and that it wouldn't feel like an airshow with so few people. As it happens, Scampton Airshow didn't feel very busy. But there were concerns about traffic management. It was agreed that the first year would be a small event... look at where the pinch points are, what the problems are, and build on it. Maybe behind the scenes they were planning on 75000, but that isn't what people were being told. I'll see if I still have the FAQ's that they sent through! I thought they were initially talking about 20000 per day, but cant be 100% sure.
XP282

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby trebleone on Tue 15 May 2018, 2:48 pm

XP282 wrote:
Tommy wrote:
We got 75% of what we expected.


.... that would imply that the cap was ~75,000?


Not quite ....... doing the maths, if 50,000 = 75%, then 100% = 66,666 (and a decimal point with a lot of recurring sixes after)
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Tommy on Tue 15 May 2018, 3:20 pm

:ghost: :ghost:
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby harkins on Tue 15 May 2018, 4:10 pm

Not sure I want to get involved in a mathematics argument as I'm practically the mathematics equivalent of dyslexic but, I'm pretty sure that I recall reading that the maximum number of tickets available was 20'000 a day. After quickly scanning through the email's I received, what's left of the website and a couple of the threads on here, all I found was this quote from the "Tickets for Scampton airshow" thread:

pb643 wrote:An interview in last week's RAF News provides little additional information about the show as far as I can see. The two points worth repeating being that the airshow director is a gentleman called Paul Saul and that they are developing the airfields infrastructure to cope with 25,000 people. I guess that is per day, but it doesn't specify. 12,500 per day would be a very small number, but a very long queue waiting for a bus. :lol:

Phil

So it looks like they couldn't have expected many more than 50'000 people over the weekend anyway. I suppose that with kids getting free entry that if the kids did outnumber adults say 3 to 1 then there would have been very few paying punters on the airfield.

(Also, please excuse me if I'm completely missing the point)
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby XP282 on Tue 15 May 2018, 8:42 pm

harkins wrote:Not sure I want to get involved in a mathematics argument as I'm practically the mathematics equivalent of dyslexic but, I'm pretty sure that I recall reading that the maximum number of tickets available was 20'000 a day. After quickly scanning through the email's I received, what's left of the website and a couple of the threads on here, all I found was this quote from the "Tickets for Scampton airshow" thread:

pb643 wrote:An interview in last week's RAF News provides little additional information about the show as far as I can see. The two points worth repeating being that the airshow director is a gentleman called Paul Saul and that they are developing the airfields infrastructure to cope with 25,000 people. I guess that is per day, but it doesn't specify. 12,500 per day would be a very small number, but a very long queue waiting for a bus. :lol:

Phil

So it looks like they couldn't have expected many more than 50'000 people over the weekend anyway. I suppose that with kids getting free entry that if the kids did outnumber adults say 3 to 1 then there would have been very few paying punters on the airfield.

(Also, please excuse me if I'm completely missing the point)


That’s exactly the point I’m trying to make... if they sold as many tickets as they were expecting to sell then how does it fail?
XP282

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby MiG_Eater on Tue 15 May 2018, 8:45 pm

It almost sounds like they might be making excuses!
MiG_Eater

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