Scampton Airshow 2018

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby disgruntled on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 6:57 pm

The predictable RAF bashing by the usual suspects is not only tiresome it is, I would suggest, also inaccurate and based on nothing more than assumption and private agenda.
I doubt very much that it is the RAF or the men and women from the highest officer to the lowliest SAC that have an ambivalence towards airshows and display flying. It is without a doubt MoD civil servants (yes Civvies) that have drawn up legislation and rules that makes it difficult and in some cases impossible for the military to display their assets to the general public.
For the record everything regarding the use of military assets from infrastructure to equipment to personnel outside the purpose for which they are primarily designed for must be paid for by the people wanting to book them. This goes back to the Blair/Brown government and the idea that the military must pay for itself (income generation they called it).

So Dan stop berating the RAF and turn your particular brand of vitriol on the people who deserve it i.e. The Government and faceless civilians working in MoD and not on the serving community.
disgruntled

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby jasonT1981 on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 7:05 pm

BBC is reporting it was a financial issue and the show operated at a loss due to less ticket sales than expected and higher than expected costs.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-li ... e-42358391
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Pen Pusher on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 7:53 pm

disgruntled wrote: It is without a doubt MoD civil servants (yes Civvies) that have drawn up legislation and rules that makes it difficult and in some cases impossible for the military to display their assets to the general public.


Unless it has changed in the last five years since I retired as a Civil Servant for the MoD, MoD Civil Servants do not make up legislation and rules, they are there purely to carry out the instructions passed down from higher up the food chain as in the Government of the day, the Secretary of State for Defence. The Chief of Defence Staff etc.

So having berated Dan for having a go at the RAF, perhaps you should turn your vitriol away from blaming faceless civilians working in the MoD for something they haven't done and if you are a serving member of the RAF then try having a go at your boss Air Chief Marshal Sir Stuart Peach, Chief of the Defence Staff in Main Building.

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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby disgruntled on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:02 pm

Sorry penpusher but yes you are mistaken. I have to work daily with civvies thinking that they know better than those of us who actually do the job. You will find that it is civil servants that advise the government and they then tell the chiefs of staff to implement it - overlooked by the civil servants all the time.
All forces personnel love to demonstrate their ability and kit to the general public but the legislation that had come from outside is what is to blame.
disgruntled

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby disgruntled on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:05 pm

The idea of income generation came from the treasury so yes it is civil servants
disgruntled

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Pen Pusher on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:10 pm

disgruntled wrote:I have to work daily with civvies thinking that they know better than those of us who actually do the job.


That works both ways as I had to work with service personnel who thought they could do my job.

disgruntled wrote:You will find that it is civil servants that advise the government and they then tell the chiefs of staff to implement it


That's Senior Civil Servants as in the Sir Humphreys, not the shop floor Civil Servants.

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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby disgruntled on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:20 pm

The civil service should have no role in the day today running of defence at all and yet they watch over everything acting as judge and jury and auditing the income generation that is the real reason for the decline of military airshows and air displays.
Rules such as the three main service charities having to pay the MoD for the use of the logos of the services they are supporting illustrate this very well.

Now I realise penpusher that not every civil servant is inherently bad indeed some of my best friends are civil servants, but the fact was everyone is blaming the RAF when it is unlikely that it is the service to blame
disgruntled

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby n0143773 on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:40 pm

I laughed out loud at this.
Last edited by Wissam24 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby CJS on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 8:53 pm

n0143773 wrote:Lol


Very constructive :surrender:

A few points (well, one really): It's a bit pointless blaming the RAF, it wasn't nor ever was intended or made out to be an RAF show. The misconception that DBH run RAF shows still seems to prevail - they don't.

Yes, it was at an RAF base, but that does not make it an RAF show, any more than RIAT is. As far as I am aware, the only RAF airshow at the present time is the Cosford airshow.

It's also a bit pointless blaming DBH. In fact, it's a bit pointless blaming anyone really. It happened this year, it's not happening next year but they (DBH) obviously want to make it work for 2019. The detractors on here and elsewhere - and you're entitled to your viewpoint of course - would have had more of a field day if they had gone ahead with the show in 2018 and then struggled, for whatever reason, to secure a strong lineup again.

Fair play to them for pulling the plug before they'd started running the taps (or something).
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby D200 on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 11:31 pm

The senior officer cadre in the RAF have no appetite for airshows or even village fetes; although they do consider the latter the most productive for their needs. Downsizing the Armed Forces means that there is no demand for outreach recruitment.

No Airshow is ran by the RAF directly. RIAT, Cosford, and Scampton are RAFCTE organised.

If the RAF does not support overseas nations, then overseas nations will not support the RAF. The vast majority of any available goodwill is directed at RIAT only. RIAT are contracted by the RAF to provide RAF100, and so RIAT 2018 must be a success that demands all available eggs in the one basket. This cannot be threatened by diluted performance due to secondary airshows. Whilst speculation; this is also logic based upon business acumen and experience in the Airshow business.

RAFCTE have to manage the public reaction to the 2018 event being cancelled. 'Postponed' buys one time; 'Cancelled' meets with public outrage. I would not bet a penny on a 2019 event, although in fairness, the responsibility of RAF100 will be history by then.

I hope this is considered an objective viewpoint; because I have no axe to grind, and think the free fall that the UK Airshow industry finds itself in, is caused by over reactions at the highest levels of Government and the CAA.
Last edited by D200 on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Thu 14 Dec 2017, 11:36 pm

This is exactly what I feared was going on when the 2018 event moved sharply from confirmed to be confirmed. I trust they will be able to get the air show back on the rails for 2019 and moves from strength to strength. It is all the more a shame that in the RAF's centenary year with 15th September falling on a Saturday that the Birthday crowd haven't got a single air show organised for that day. Indeed, their sole output is Cosford. A station which in the 1960s was dismissed by the RAF as a suitable venue to hold such an event itself. Because it was too small and limited. I suspect that once again, apart from RIAT (quite a separate case) the principal military air show in the UK will once again be staged by the darker blue service.

I would also like to know what the Scampton organisers mean by learning lessons? They seem to have stumbled upon a serious flaw in the organisation of the event. Most puzzling given that they are RAFCTE! or DBH! as the current craving for initials abbreviations and jargon goes. So any road up, that month, all being well, next year for FB will be Kleine Brogel, Jersey, Duxford and possibly Prestwick/Troon. :wink:

By the way N014773, you got it wrong over the first Scampton event, laughing your bonce off at the recent disappointing news does not restore a shred of what credibility you had.

FB :biggrin:
I have danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings!
Finningley Boy

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby minnie the moocher on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:39 am

it would be interesting (well it would to me anyway) to know how far short the ticket sales/revenue was to the figure that had been expected. Was it a little bit short or a lot short? - ie what would it take to get this show to be viable? Must admit though I do think it was set up to fail in the first place :sad:
minnie the moocher

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby boff180 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 9:22 am

D200 wrote:No Airshow is ran by the RAF directly. RIAT, Cosford, and Scampton are RAFCTE organised.


Cosford is organised directly by the RAF, they employ the organising team. RAFCTE support them.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby cg_341 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 9:57 am

Scampton is (was?) organised by a separate team with RAFCTE supporting them too, wasn't it?
cg_341

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 10:06 am

cg_341 wrote:Scampton is (was?) organised by a separate team with RAFCTE supporting them too, wasn't it?


No, all the management team with the exception of the airshow director where shared with RIAT, along with most of the volunteer management roles and a significant number of the volunteers.
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 10:24 am

boff180 wrote:
D200 wrote:No Airshow is ran by the RAF directly. RIAT, Cosford, and Scampton are RAFCTE organised.


Cosford is organised directly by the RAF, they employ the organising team. RAFCTE support them.

Yes Boff, believe me, I know the score, Yeovilton is run along similar lines on behalf of the Navy. Cosford is the air show that the RAF officially stick their name to and are involved in the running of. Hence, 'RAF Cosford Air Show' and 'Scampton Air Show'. Waddington and Leuchars ended up being run along similar lines but they remained official RAF air shows. You would probably have to go back to the early 1990s to a day when the RAF ran their air shows entirely in house. Different era, different country! But my point is that Cosford doesn't promise to be a grand event, yet as you say, its the only 'RAF' event. Furthermore, the venue, aside from the museum and road access, is about the worst possible, in terms of the airfield to hold a substantial air show. Its too small, a point the RAF properly recognised over 55 years ago. Then again the modern RAF consider making any more realistic locations available as anathema! :cuppa:

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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 11:01 am

I think "set up to fail" ventures too far into conspiracy theory territory, but certainly Scampton suffered the worst negative PR pre-show since the disastrous Spirit Of Avarice farce at Abingdon ten years earlier. Considering RAFCTE's otherwise respectable record in hosting airshows, the amount of own goals scored in the run-up to Scampton was quite astonishing, starting with the choice of date and known clashes with major, established events on the continent.

While I certainly don't believe this was ever set up to be a deliberate failure, I do feel that RAFCTE could have, and should have, done considerably more which would have improved the chances of success. This was never marketed as a "Son Of RIAT" which it could have been, and at those prices ought to have been. Filling a premium ticket programme with guff like autogyros was never going to get bums on seats (or windbreaks on crowd lines). As was pointed out in the run-up, a near identical line-up was on show at Southport for free.

As it is, this is an event I don't think anyone involved in is truly sorry to see the back of. And it is finished, I am certain. "Postponed" is better PR than "cancelled". Wasn't the same sort of language initially used when Air Fete ceased to be?
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby harkins on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 11:27 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:As it is, this is an event I don't think anyone involved in is truly sorry to see the back of. And it is finished, I am certain. "Postponed" is better PR than "cancelled". Wasn't the same sort of language initially used when Air Fete ceased to be?


And wasn't Waddington itself not 'cancelled' from the offset but put on hold for the runway works and an airshow review, the results of which were never published - and only seen in a redacted form after a freedom of information request? I get the impression that they really don't like being upfront with people if they can help it, but I'm of the opinion that there's more chance of the second coming than an airshow ever happening at Scampton again.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby pb643 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 11:51 am

harkins wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:As it is, this is an event I don't think anyone involved in is truly sorry to see the back of. And it is finished, I am certain. "Postponed" is better PR than "cancelled". Wasn't the same sort of language initially used when Air Fete ceased to be?


And wasn't Waddington itself not 'cancelled' from the offset but put on hold for the runway works and an airshow review, the results of which were never published - and only seen in a redacted form after a freedom of information request? I get the impression that they really don't like being upfront with people if they can help it, but I'm of the opinion that there's more chance of the second coming than an airshow ever happening at Scampton again.


Unfortunately I suspect you are correct Harkins. Which is a great shame considering the huge amount of work that must have happened to get the first show off the ground. Any subsequent shows were always going to be logistically far easier.

I suspect some of the financial problems was as a result of the "no compromise" approach of the RAFCTE. The level of infrastructure that they use can obviously be financially justified at RIAT, but in hindsight maybe some compromises would have been wise to make the whole event cheaper to stage. (Plus the obviously weak display lineup and ticket prices, which have both been done to death.)

From what I recall at the time, I thought Saturday was almost a sell out and Sunday was around 18,000 (happy to be corrected on those numbers) Tickets were limited to 22,500 or was it 24,500 :dizzy: I can't recall. In Graham Hurleys "Airshow" book, he says something along the lines of, the majority of the ticket sales cover the costs of the show and it is the final few thousand tickets that make the difference between a financial disaster or a big success.

In the runup to the show, I understood that financial success was not one of the key factors for the first year show, it was essentially to prove the logistics. So I can only assume that things must have been financially very bad to pull the plug or this is a result of moving goal posts.
pb643

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby harkins on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:02 pm

I wonder if the obsession with the grandstands and other enclosures is a problem. For years I enjoyed Woodford airshow and that never had any enclosure of any description, just a long accessible crowd-line. I expect the cost of hiring these stands tents picket fences etc doesn't come cheap and I assume that the revenue from standard tickets has to help cover these costs.

I'm pretty sure that Scamptom wasn't intended to fail as they just simply would not have wasted the time and effort last year if they had zero intention of an ongoing event. It really does just appear that they made a complete pigs ear of it.
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Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Berf on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:45 pm

pb643 wrote:In the runup to the show, I understood that financial success was not one of the key factors for the first year show, it was essentially to prove the logistics. So I can only assume that things must have been financially very bad to pull the plug or this is a result of moving goal posts.



That may well be true and is not unreasonable but there has to be an improvement in the second year and the organisers can see that bearing in mind what is going to be at RIAT and possibly Cosford it is not going to improve. MOD resources be it aircraft or personnel are going into these two events ad there is not enough to go around to also resource Scampton. DBH can see that international teams/acts will go to 1. RIAT and 2. Maybe Cosford - nothing for Scampton most have their own countries to support and they too have reducing budgets.
Berf

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Arthur Tee on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 12:52 pm

n0143773 wrote:I laughed out loud at this.


Mind you don't bring up any of that Humble Pie that you ate earlier in the year! :lol:

Arthur
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Arthur Tee

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby st24 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 5:52 pm

n0143773 wrote:I laughed out loud at this.

:grin: You may have had a little Lol to yourself about the cancelling of an airshow but trust me, scores of us have eaten out on the comedy value of this display of your incredible insight..

st24 wrote:Can't help re-posting these from a year or so ago, does make me chuckle... ScamptonMarketing - can you pay heed please..

n0143773 wrote:
Slappywag wrote:It's not happening.

End.


:up:


reheat module wrote:
n0143773 wrote:It will never happen. Fact. Just like the time I told you all waddington wasn't coming back. This is the same level of fact.

^^^^^
You know that, I know that, but there's no better sport than prodding the non-believers...


n0143773 wrote:
SilentFlight wrote:
CJS wrote:
I appreciate that sometimes people are in the know but have their hands tied by those in much higher places and are therefore unable to spill the beans



:wink: exactly on the nail, there is a very detailed plan, but the RAF hold the decision, which we will all have to wait for.


:lmao:

It's amazing really. I tell everyone that Waddington will never have an airshow again, whilst all you had to say was 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' getting hopes up for no reason. As it happens, that round finished n0143773 1-0 SilentFlight.

Now, I am here telling everyone there will be no airshow at Scampton, whilst again, all you have to say is 'wait and see everyone, wait and see...' - hopefully people have learnt from last time, in advance of me taking a 2-0 lead over you.


:up:
So you're input really isn't warranted...
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!
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st24

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby cg_341 on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 5:54 pm

Surprised rule 18 hasn't been applied to be honest!
cg_341

Re: Scampton Airshow 2018

Postby Finningley Boy on Fri 15 Dec 2017, 6:35 pm

I also like Dan and others don't subscribe to the 'set to fail' theory, that's 'martians are always landing and nicking people and the Government know all about it' territory. I don't have any certainties about it either returning or not returning in 2019, I honestly hope it will. But this is what I mean about negativity here on UKAR, nobody knows what the out come will be, we can only hope that this is one of the occasions where we are (certain individuals excepted) pleasantly surprised. I don't know, yet I got hoist by this pertard simply for questioning what was going on when the organisers jumped from euphoria about success and certainty about an event in 2018 to doubt. What I will never understand is why they pick such a dreadful date. And then did it again for next year! I imagine that has something to do with the lesson learning explanation. Another thing they might do to avoid poor receipts at the gate is start selling tickets at the gates again. Don't be so hoity toity about it. RIAT can do that because of its established reputation. Cosford defies logic in attracting very heavy crowds and snarling traffic jams around the area, hence they went to tickets in advance only. Scampton tried to behave like a prestigious event without the prestige. Thumbs and fingers crossed for 2019. :hide:

FB :cuppa: :biggrin:
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Finningley Boy

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