What does UKAR need? Opinions please...

[Manonthefence]

I'll turn it on its head
What evidence is there to prove there are Cliques? People have made friends through the foum, but that doesnt mean they are in a clique, far from it.

I tend to post the same images on all forums, not everyone is a member of every forum. But then again I am not that bothered about collecting comments, I certainly dont get upset if there arent any.

[Copper2]

Id like to add to my last post in my opinion these are good photographers with interests in a range of aviation that added to the website

[IanH]

Ian, after 9 pages maybe its time to leave it and move on.

Like Clemo, Valkrie, Panther01, Jonesy etc etc etc i guess if you dont like the way the board is then just leave.

Fair point Rich.

[Manonthefence]

Ian, after 9 pages maybe its time to leave it and move on.

Like Clemo, Valkrie, Panther01, Jonesy etc etc etc i guess if you dont like the way the board is then just leave.

Fair point Rich.

Yes because taking your toys away is always the grown up thing to do. I really cant see what the problem is, you seem to be upset that a specific set of shots havent been commented upon. Cant you accept that after 9 pages of reasoned debate that has meant a lot of soul searching by the board members, not everyone agrees with you? I bet if the same set of circumstances happen again (with the photo posts), as a result of this debate, things will happen differently.

[IanH]

Ian, after 9 pages maybe its time to leave it and move on.

Like Clemo, Valkrie, Panther01, Jonesy etc etc etc i guess if you dont like the way the board is then just leave.

Fair point Rich.

Yes because taking your toys away is always the grown up thing to do. I really cant see what the problem is, you seem to be upset that a specific set of shots havent been commented upon. Cant you accept that after 9 pages of reasoned debate that has meant a lot of soul searching by the board members, not everyone agrees with you? I bet if the same set of circumstances happen again (with the photo posts), as a result of this debate, things will happen differently.

As it happens I started this post and as regards my 'fair point' comment I never said anything about not posting etc. I just fancied a cuppa. I`m back now. Is that ok with you! Just been told off by my wife for not putting a TV up. Too much I guess to seek an apology about the toys!

The beauty of this debate is the range of comments and it is clear few will agree with me and I won`t with some others. I think it was you yesterday who said that my comments hit the nail on the head so have you changed your view already? I feel I have tried to stay quite balanced in this but nobody has answered my question why the lowfly posts are simply copied and pasted on to this site for example, perhaps you can tell me? Whats your view on it?

I`ll start again briefly, if some other well known photographers had shot the C17 at prestwick it would have received more than nil comments. Many reasons why perhaps but there was nothing wrong with the shots at all plus the subject matter was a good one. Have you seen any RAAF C-17s? I haven`t. An excellent post from Leuchars by a very good photographer slipped off this board with next to zero comment etc overrun by many Lowfly shots that most of us had already seen of more or less the same subject matter. Perhaps the guys will tell me why they all put the same shots up or was it all done at exactly the same time. I will say this again so I don`t upset anyone, I thoroughly enjoy their shots but why do we have to see everyones shots from the hill that day plus the little at the end 'thanks for the heads up' People apologising for taking side on shots of rare USMC Hercs. What is going on. This is why I posted initially.

I never post for a comment and I wholly expect a backlash when I next do. It won`t matter what I post. I simply attempted to highlight something which comes up time and time again around the fence so I raised it. Alot of the younger guys won`t feel able to because they`ll get their heads chewed off. No point saying that there isn`t this and that because if one person says there is then there is an issue. There are enough who have commented that there is a problem including some of the 'well known' chaps so perhaps they are making it up also. The mods feel there is a problem so perhaps they are wrong too. I`m not going into the 'clique' thing again because some of the stuff I have seen over 40 years in this would make you shudder. I have no intention of joining in.

I`m off for another cuppa now if thats ok with you. Rather than accusing me again perhaps you could simply answer some of things I have said above in the good spirit in which it intended. Regards, Ian

[Mad Dan]

Can I just say that I think you probably drink too much tea, Ian!

As a follow-up, I have never really understood the issue about dead side on shots...and I certainly don't understand why people are sometimes critical of them.

As for apologising for posting one, that is ridiculous and quite unnecessary. There are some here who engage in photography with more artistic imagery in mind - and some who are more intent on documenting the actual aircraft - and some who pursue both strands. I think I probably fall into the latter category, but I certainly have my fair share of dead side on images - and I am just as proud of them as of many other shots.

There must surely be room for both aspects to co-exist without snide or derogatory remarks, mustn't there?

And by my count that's the third cup today, Ian. Beware of the tannin, old chap.

[SuffolkBlue]

The quality of photos posted does vary, I shudder when I look back at some of my early efforts, but without a bit of constructive advice none of us would improve. Simply slagging someone off for daring to post a blurry image brings nothing to the table whatsoever.

The first and only reply I'm going to make in this thread is that I completely agree with John's comment here. Exactly how I feel.

[Manonthefence]

As it happens I started this post and as regards my 'fair point' comment I never said anything about not posting etc. I just fancied a cuppa. I`m back now. Is that ok with you! Just been told off by my wife for not putting a TV up. Too much I guess to seek an apology about the toys!

And you missed my point that leaving achieves nothing. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

.. but nobody has answered my question why the lowfly posts are simply copied and pasted on to this site for example, perhaps you can tell me? Whats your view on it?

As to why, well I guess its easier to edit one set of images, write out the posts in word and cross post them. As for my views on it, well I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever. That said, if I comment on a post that has been cross posted, I will do so on only one site, unless I am replying to another comment.

I`ll start again briefly, if some other well known photographers had shot the C17 at prestwick it would have received more than nil comments.

I disagree, its just possible that it was lost in a flurry of posts and this would have happened whoever posted the pictures. There are at least two posts from "well known" members that havent received any comments, with no complaints about it. I'd love to see the evidence that you have to prove your statement.

Many reasons why perhaps but there was nothing wrong with the shots at all plus the subject matter was a good one. Have you seen any RAAF C-17s? I haven`t. An excellent post from Leuchars by a very good photographer slipped off this board with next to zero comment etc overrun by many Lowfly shots that most of us had already seen of more or less the same subject matter. Perhaps the guys will tell me why they all put the same shots up or was it all done at exactly the same time. I will say this again so I don`t upset anyone, I thoroughly enjoy their shots but why do we have to see everyones shots from the hill that day plus the little at the end 'thanks for the heads up' People apologising for taking side on shots of rare USMC Hercs. What is going on. This is why I posted initially.

I think you are taking some comments a little too seriously, this is a hobby not life and death. Sit back, look at the shots. If you like them then great if you dont then great, if you want to post a comment (positive or negative) then fill your boots. What I dont understand is why you are getting so upset over someone elses posts not getting any comments, I could understand your frustration if it was yours not getting comments.

I never post for a comment and I wholly expect a backlash when I next do. It won`t matter what I post. I simply attempted to highlight something which comes up time and time again around the fence so I raised it. Alot of the younger guys won`t feel able to because they`ll get their heads chewed off. No point saying that there isn`t this and that because if one person says there is then there is an issue. There are enough who have commented that there is a problem including some of the 'well known' chaps so perhaps they are making it up also. The mods feel there is a problem so perhaps they are wrong too. I`m not going into the 'clique' thing again because some of the stuff I have seen over 40 years in this would make you shudder. I have no intention of joining in.

I think we have covered this in the debate, I get the feeling there will be more of a spirit of co-operation in future (at least I hope there will). Shall we agree to disagree on the clique subject? There wont be a backlash from me when you next post images, but whatever happens I guess we cant win. If there are comments they will only happen because of this debate. If there are none then you will consider your point proved. Damned if we do, damned if we dont.

Enjoy your cuppa, I am off out for a beer

[IanH]

Beer...me too! Don`t worry I`m not wound up...just hoping that things may change. As for why, who knows but I watched the same people commenting on the same post missing out the one I mentioned hence my comment on the post. I`ll stick something up and we`ll see what hapens. Enjoy your beer.

[onemac]

Well I for one don't reply to all photo posts. Sorry but I just don't have time. This is not the only forum I frequent and I find it easier to pick out the 'jucy' pics rather than the day to day Phoons, Tonkas etc. I suppose repetition puts some folk off and that's where the 'Lowfly cut and paste' comes into it.

On the constructive criticism issue I do feel a relative newcomer here and, although my pics have improved, I feel reluctant to comment on other folks efforts - especially when those more qualified than myself have commented on how good they are. Case in point is rob88's Lossie & Kinloss Trip thread See Here - first Nimrod shot is a cracker but the second, which has attracted a lot of positive comments, has the sky completely blown out IMHO. It really is 'in yer face' as Karl puts it but a little bit of extra post processing (mask off the aircraft and selectively adjust the curves) would have made this pic the winner for me. I am now aware I should have said something

The 1024 debate is cracking Unfortunately I'm in less of a position to comment on the technicalities of the issue than I am to comment on pics. How nice it would be to have something like 'This site is best viewed on 1280 x whatever and if you don't like it......'.

This thread is encouraging though - if all the members who posted comments like 'we should all take responsibility' actually think before they post then UKAR will indeed become a better place. We all seem to be thinking along the same lines though which is good.

Looking forward to further comments and perhaps another thread from the staff with an ideas poll? Only way to find out what the membership really want

Al

PS - beer sounds good. I have many in the fridge - help yourselves...

[T_J]

IanH wrote:

... but nobody has answered my question why the lowfly posts are simply copied and pasted on to this site for example, perhaps you can tell me? Whats your view on it?

Ian,
Not everyone is a member of Lowfly or any of the other lowfly forums. You have to be registered on some of those websites to view and comment. UKAR, for some people, is the first time that they see those images.

UKAR being an open forum allows for a much wider audience. That audience can include the aircrew involved seeking a copy or interest from publishers wanting a dramatic image. If you look on PPRuNe UKAR is very popular with Military Aircrew. I can't really see your problem with people wanting to cross post? People are proud of their efforts, want to share and expose them to a wider audience.

TJ

[mais01]

Beer...me too! Don`t worry I`m not wound up...just hoping that things may change. As for why, who knows but I watched the same people commenting on the same post missing out the one I mentioned hence my comment on the post. I`ll stick something up and we`ll see what hapens. Enjoy your beer.

Ian.
I see your point about cross posting of images throghout the various boards, and something i do every now and then, the main reason i do it is to compare the reaction of the posting.
On some forums you get a few comments on others perhaps a little more and sometimes no comments at all.

At the end of the day if peope dotn want to leave comment then fair enough those that do i tend to look at thier posts a little more closely and return the courtesy accordingly.
I have to say i do broadly agree with what your comments so far.

[AdamN]

Not everyone is a member of Lowfly or any of the other lowfly forums. You have to be registered on some of those websites to view and comment. UKAR, for some people, is the first time that they see those images.

Precisely. Why limit yourself to one forum, just because a few people who frequent both get all snotty because they've just loaded up a thread than they've already seen elsewhere?

I do visit a number of forums, but one that I do post photos on from time to time is the Classic British Flight Sim forum, usually when there's classic British aircraft involved! I posted shots from Waddington on here a while back, which showed a VC-10 doing touch and goes. The pictures were well recieved, which I was pleased about, and I certainly could have left it there. But afterwards I posted a set solely of the VC-10 over at CBFS and they absolutely loved it. The reception I got was totally different because it was a totally different environment. Plus, I was giving others who've never been near this forum the opportunity to see the photos, and as such a lot more people took genuine pleasure out of viewing them. Should I have restricted myself to only posting here (or there), just because I know a few members visit both forums?

[AndyBeau]

Adam, I think Ian was hinting to the fact that a lot of members from this board also frequent boards like lowfly etc. Your situation is slightly different in my opinion.

Folks, I think we need to be careful not to continually go over the same ground over and over as we'll end up going full circle. We've had some excellent discussion and I think it was good to allow everyone to post their thoughts and get it all out in the open. We won't all agree on every point so I don't see any merit on hammering out certain topics. We need to agree to disagree on some things.

If there are any outstanding questions that need answers then by all means continue with those discussions. I think now would be a good point for the Staff to go away and think about the things that have been said. When they are ready I'm sure they will communicate their thoughts with us and discuss any changes that they feel need to be made.

[AdamN]

Adam, I think Ian was hinting to the fact that a lot of members from this board also frequent boards like lowfly etc. Your situation is slightly different in my opinion.

Yes, a more extreme example perhaps, but the basic principle is the same. There were, for example, some absolute gems in the old Fighter Control's equivalent of Golden Oldies, a lot of which weren't posted over here, yet would have been very well recieved. There are a lot of people on here that do visit FC, and a lot that don't, but I just don't understand the arguement that you shouldn't post in multiple places, simply because some people don't want to see repeats of what they've seen elsewhere. The fact is, there will be people on every site that haven't seen your photos elsewhere, regardless of whether you have or not.

[AndyBeau]

I'm not disagreeing with you Adam.

[StephenEThomas]

Having made a comment about 'lowfly' (small 'l' ) earlier and possibly missed IanH's point, I'll echo what TJ said about Lowfly.net

I have in the past, and not very often as I don't get out as often as I like, cross posted very similar threads between UKAR and Lowfly.net. In my view there are different audiences. Although there is a core of people who frequent both sites there is a much wider audience who visit one or the other.

UKAR has a wider general audience, and is encouraging to new members, as it has open membership.

Lowfly.net, for it's own valid reasons, has a more restricted membership policy. Although this does not prevent you from viewing lowfly posts it means that the contributions and responses are fewer. While you're guaranteed to get responses to posts on Lowfly.net, posting them elsewhere sometimes better shows the real value of the images.

Steve

[IanH]

Morning all,

I was just thinking that I should apologise to anyone I have upset over this. It was never my intention to do so but I guess in any open debate there is always that likelihood. I do not wish to go over old ground but my hope is that everyone who uses this site going forward feels a little responsibility to look a little wider than their own specific interest now and then to keep the site as wide and varied as it 'WAS'. That is the beauty of something like this. I`m not suggesting anyone should or has to comment on something they don`t like but I`m sure we`d all agree that quality photography given the subject matter comes in many forms and everyone on here needs to be encouraged in this. If lowfly floats your boat and you are 'able' to do it, great. I love it to. If Japanese Phantoms are your thing and you make the effort to travel and shoot them (be it side on or what), those making this effort need to be encouraged by some on both sides. If Lyneham is your thing, don`t feel put off posting from an excellent location and remember its these guys who give alot of enjoyment to the guys on the hills! Such things are connected. Maybe 'side on' isn`t everyones thing but when you travel this is often the only way it can be done. If well shot, then I feel more credit needs to be given where so much effort has been made and it has been my observation and others that this type of thing is being missed. If there is more general appreciation at times, many will be alot happier. At the end of the day, the site will be unhealthy if people are put off from posting if it is ignored or doesn`t get due recognition. As for encouraging the pilots, I am all for it.

I am not throwing out my toys on this. I know its not life and death and having been close to the latter, I know this hobby is and should remain alot of fun. Its a nice sunny Sunday morning with a few Hercs about here and there so I certainly don`t want to wind anyone up today. Good luck to the mods on this. If we all moderate ourselves and apply good old common sense and a bit of thought then things will be great. My wish list would be

1. Recognise quality be it side on, low fly, up side down or inside my shed,
2. Forget who photographed it and give more credit and encouragement where it is due,
3. Inspire, motivate, give help etc which is especially relevant for the younger generation or for those who are new to this. I hasten to add I put no age limit on this. Nobody should be underestimated. 'If they are good enough they are old enough' is a well used sporting phrase which applies equally here.
4. Not being ageist, elitist or anything else that suggests bias or preference.
5. Looking outside ones own particular genre/interest/ area of expertise and recognise the 'quality' efforts of others whoever it is.

Have a great week. Cheers.

[KarlADrage]

Well said Ian.

[StephenEThomas]

I'll buy that for a dollar

[AndyBeau]

Ian,

Excellent post and I think wraps the whole discussion up nicely.

Enjoy your Sunday afternoon.

[MarkL]

Great post Ian

Mark

[A380FWWOW]

Very well said that man! (IanH)

[boff180]

Pink wafers and bags of McCoys all round!

Personally, I feel the air has been cleared and the atmosphere's already picking up.

Great thread

Do you think you can get the Pink Wafer company to sponsor your commentary at RIAT Dan?

3 Weeks to Kemble and the annual UKAR gathering

Andy

[sjt]

There is a reason I don't post comments on photo threads.... thats because I very rarely view the photo threads. Only if its an event I want to see pictures from or Golden Oldies or General. Does that make me feel a little bit left out of of UKAR so to speak? No and thats becuase this forum has somethings that the others don't have. That is community and plenty to offer everyone.

There's a great diverse mix of members on here and the majority all have something positive to offer.

Would we really want to go back to the days of Sheffield Sie and AZERTY etc!!!!