Thoughts on the show.

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tu16
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by tu16 »

Skyflash wrote:
Abingdonman wrote:If Zeltweg was free entry,plus it was probably the only major airshow in the country......no WONDER they had such large crowds! :grin:
I watched some of this show on the web and I liked the half dozen displays I saw for sure ,but it could be decieving to judge a show that way,9 hrs is a long time to fill with enough good stuff and variety and I couldnt tell if there were any big gaps etc,only someone being there could know that,and even then people have such different ideas whats a good show :wink: ...


They put the MiG-29 and the Frecce on last - two of their biggest and best attractions - and the time leading up to those displays most certainly did not drag. It was pretty much full-on for the whole nine hours, the only exception being on the Friday when the two young paratroopers collided when jumping out of the Herk during the role-demo and had to be airlifted to hospital, which obviously necessitated a bit of a hiatus in the show.

Zeltweg Airpower 11 was the best airshow I have been to since RIAT 2006, without a shadow of a doubt. But like I say, trying to draw comparisons between Airpower and RIAT is very difficult, since you're not really comparing like-with-like. Not least, as you hint in your post, because of the free entry to Airpower.


So, if we are not comparing like with like, why do so many people try to do so? Do we want a 9 hour display at RIAT stuffed with gliders, light aircraft, parachutists & air force trainers? RIAT has been criticised for doing so. FAB location, but was the content of the display that different?

It must be easy to put together set pieces by your own air force if you are not doing anything else with them overseas. It must be easy to put loads of Red Bull vintage bits into the display when the bankroll the display. Obtaining classic jets from nearby neighbours must be simpler... nobody seems to moan that the Vulcan or Meteor has not appeared at Zeltweg, but they do that the MIG15 or Me262 has not appeared at RIAT.

Its been done to death, but it is easier to get Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary & Czech to send their Air Force aircraft when its a hop over the border (especially when budgets are tight). If you want to see these aircraft, then maybe you will have to travel to Zeltweg or Kescemet in the future... the world changes.

Zeltweg doen't have to compete for aircraft with a Waddington, Yeovilton & Duxford all in the same fortnight.

Much has been made of the Poles going to Yeovilton over RIAT, well, they went to Leuchars last year... perhaps its RIAT's turn in 2012?

Should RIAT get all of the good participation? Or should the love be spread around a bit?

Given the hysteria by some forum members at an Estonian AN2 at Koksijde, but the begruding acceptance of a SU27 & IL76 at Fairford, I sometimes wonder what these people want.
Does ST24 really think that RIAT doesn't ask for as many aircraft as they can from everybody? What is his suggestion to the answer "no, not this year" (apart from moan, carp, moan, or "but you sent one to Belgium, Austria, etc).

spiralkicker
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by spiralkicker »

Yes TU16 but.....
Surely moaning from the enthusiast is good.. If everyone said it was brilliant there would be no improvements to make, if everyone said they really liked burke, thought the perfume stall was great loved the food then RIAT wouldnt have much to do...and next year we will probably get her again along with One man and his dog and duck racing thrown in aswell like other events..
Am not an enthusiast (other than i like to see them at close quarters) but went to an Air tattoo to see aircraft (pretty self explanatory really) maybe if you want to see A.Burke may be search concert rather than air tattoo, so not sure the family is going to turn up at such an event EXPECTING to see other things...
As for aircraft, as i said in a previous post i was not going to criticise the effort put in by RIAT in obtaining aircrat as i dont know, but taking out the stuff that was expected to be there, i cant belleive what was there was all that was acheivable to be honest and thats from a none plane spotting perspective...

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raiford
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by raiford »

what was there was what was achieved! no matter how hard they try, and they try their utmost every year, if Air Arms won't or can't send something that has been requested, then there is nothing RIAT can do, but make the most out of what has been promised and sent!

spiralkicker
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by spiralkicker »

Correct Raiford, but that doesnt mean JP cant express they wernt happy with it, to accept an inferior event (for what ever reason) is far more damaging to it than to criticise it, we all need feedback, if the customers of my business moan i need to listen to them, even if they dont know the facts i still need to listen and communicate..

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Inthrustwetrust
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Inthrustwetrust »

so the SeaVivex which was tootling around down south for most of the previous week wasnt acheivable? I very much doubt it!

after all, they cannot claim after having so many aircraft drop out that they didnt have the finances to get her over from Bournemouth. after all it was only in the last 2 weeks before the show more items dropped out F1's, C-26 etc so the finances for those were in place, just not spent when they could have.

not really an excuse in my book, and i can only think their lack of even a small responce is showing some sort of distain for the paying enthusiast. they could always post...2we are reading and digesting etc, and will get back to you later" couldnt they?

Or do they quite simply think they know better than anyone else? i disagree (evidence for the prosecution i give Sea Vixen and Miss Burke , M'lud).

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TomG
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by TomG »

spiralkicker wrote:Correct Raiford, but that doesnt mean JP cant express they wernt happy with it, to accept an inferior event (for what ever reason) is far more damaging to it than to criticise it, we all need feedback, if the customers of my business moan i need to listen to them, even if they dont know the facts i still need to listen and communicate..


Not speaking on behalf of the folks at Fairford however post RIAT 2010 a quite extensive piece of feedback was provided to the forum with little response:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28933&p=289646&hilit=+feedback#p289646

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28935&p=289648&hilit=+feedback#p289648

Pre RIAT 2011 a fair bit of feedback was provided from Rob Windsor.......the latest at:

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=34300&p=343799#p343799

There will untold jobs to be finished off and loose ends sorted at Fairford in the immediate aftermath of the show and feedback may well be forthcoming once 2011 has sunk in.

spiralkicker
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by spiralkicker »

Thank you TomG i think most of that is pretty obvious.
Maybe a few polls maybe useful but its always good to listen (from all sides)

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Ian G
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Ian G »

I wait with baited breath.

I don't doubt for one moment that the RIAT crew try very hard to secure air arms from all over the world and I do appreciate all of the organisation that goes in to an event on such a colossal scale - but the commercial aspect of the show now far outweighs the enjoyment and spectacle of the World's/UK's* largest military airshow.

If any feedback is provided then I would like them to make sure that they take on board the views of this forum rather than try and justify decisions made. I know you can't please all of the people all of the time but it's blindingly obvious, over the last 16 pages of this thread that the majority aren't happy bunnies!

Ian


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st24
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by st24 »

tu16 wrote:So, if we are not comparing like with like, why do so many people try to do so? Do we want a 9 hour display at RIAT stuffed with gliders, light aircraft, parachutists & air force trainers? RIAT has been criticised for doing so. FAB location, but was the content of the display that different?


RIAT this year had programmed the ATC flypast with Vikings, Vigilants and other glider types, last year the USAF Kestrel glider (un!)fortuntely didn't fly due to wind and the RAF GSA duo have been a feature before. 4 Breitling Stearman surely count as light aircraft as do Tiger Moths, the We Fly team, T67 Firefly, Alcyon, Cri-cris etc etc in previous years. The RAF Falcons were always a staple of IATs/RIATs, last year we had the USAF team and a special forces drop, years before we have had the French, New Zealand and Canadian teams as well as civvy teams - anyone remember the Emabassy girls free fall team in the early '70s?.. Air Force trainers, hell were do we start - this year Tutor, Tucano, Hawk, Saab105, Belgian SF260s team, again over the years - Pillan, King Air, JP's, Gnat, Aviojets, PC7/9, Alpha Jet etc etc...... They're both huge international air displays, yes the funding/organisation are very different but they both set out their stalls to achieve the same goal - one charges a significant sum for entry, one is free.

It must be easy to put together set pieces by your own air force if you are not doing anything else with them overseas. It must be easy to put loads of Red Bull vintage bits into the display when the bankroll the display. Obtaining classic jets from nearby neighbours must be simpler... nobody seems to moan that the Vulcan or Meteor has not appeared at Zeltweg, but they do that the MIG15 or Me262 has not appeared at RIAT.


Agreed, though the set piece argument doesn’t fit with RIAT, being a civvy run show, with Waddo – yes. I personally wouldn’t want to see the Red Bull fleet, I find them abhorrent TBH, but their support and money for all things aviation should be applauded. I don’t recall anyone moaning that the ‘262 or MiG15 didn’t come to RIAT – they really don’t fit the bill there, though the ‘262 would be great to see at Legends. Zeltweg obviously don’t need the Vulcan and Meteor as neither fit their billing – they got the J29 Tunnan which is perfect for them as it was operated by the Air Force, I’m sure they went all out for a Draken too.

Its been done to death, but it is easier to get Slovakia, Croatia, Serbia, Hungary & Czech to send their Air Force aircraft when its a hop over the border (especially when budgets are tight). If you want to see these aircraft, then maybe you will have to travel to Zeltweg or Kescemet in the future... the world changes.


No doubt but then again look at Koksijde – previously have hosted the Croatian team , this year Estonian, Ukrainian, Czech and Polish participants…Easier yes if they’re next door, but not impossible to arrange if they are further afield. Look at the Czech Hind and Hip pair, making a massive trek all across Europe to attend a tiny helicopter museum open weekend, yet completely snubbing the major UK shows at Waddington and even RIAT a mere week before. That really don’t add up to me.

Zeltweg doen't have to compete for aircraft with a Waddington, Yeovilton & Duxford all in the same fortnight.


Seriously?! They are slap bang at the start of silly season when all the big shows are determined to cram themselves over a couple of weekends. Unfortunately for us, they appear to have a knack of sucking up all the god stuff.

Much has been made of the Poles going to Yeovilton over RIAT, well, they went to Leuchars last year... perhaps its RIAT's turn in 2012? . Should RIAT get all of the good participation? Or should the love be spread around a bit?


One would hope, but on recent experience highly unlikely. No, not all, they never have even in the glory years, but given the hype, reputation and expectation they should be getting first pickings of the meat, rather than picking the post Zeltweg/Izmir/Koksijde banquet bones..

Given the hysteria by some forum members at an Estonian AN2 at Koksijde, but the begruding acceptance of a SU27 & IL76 at Fairford, I sometimes wonder what these people want.
Does ST24 really think that RIAT doesn't ask for as many aircraft as they can from everybody? What is his suggestion to the answer "no, not this year" (apart from moan, carp, moan, or "but you sent one to Belgium, Austria, etc).


Hysteria is a little OTT, but it was a fabulous little gem to bag. I never begrudged the Ukrainians at RIAT, I felt the news release was very misleading and the fact that it was a static Flanker only did upset a few people. I accepted that but merely said that if we are getting a static jet how about a Su24 instead – something much, much rarer than a ’27. Personally I found the whole Ukrainian saga a bit sad – even Tim Prince openly confessed that it had cost a lot of money to get them and the whole thing started to sound a bit desperate and a bit of a knee jerk reaction. Hopefully they could gauge the reaction that hundreds of people were not very happy about the way things were looking and they reacted accordingly – by digging deep, but telling us quite pointedly that it had cost them a lot of money. Aaah diddums. Actually that’s exactly what I would expect RIAT to be doing, not almost apologizing for it.
I really don’t know what I expect from RIAT anymore, it would appear every year of late we hear news that makes you wonder how they manage to do what they do TBH. Asking for something is very different to asking for something specific. I can email the German defence attaché and ask for some aeroplanes please at the Abbots Bromley farmers strip charity fun day and see what happens…..Chances are they’ll send a sodding Transall over a Phantom!... :confused: :grin:
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Skyflash
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Skyflash »

Just following on from st24's last post, surely to God RIAT will push the boat out to get an F-4F next year? It'll be their last ever RIAT, so hopefully...? :whistle:
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Ian G
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Ian G »

st24 wrote:I can email the German defence attaché and ask for some aeroplanes please at the Abbots Bromley farmers strip charity fun day and see what happens…..Chances are they’ll send a sodding Transall over a Phantom!... :confused: :grin:


Please don't cos I can't make it there this year!!!
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st24
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by st24 »

Skyflash wrote:Just following on from st24's last post, surely to God RIAT will push the boat out to get an F-4F next year? It'll be their last ever RIAT, so hopefully...?


Surely its too late - are'nt they finishing v early next year?? :dunno: :sad:

Ian G wrote:
st24 wrote:I can email the German defence attaché and ask for some aeroplanes please at the Abbots Bromley farmers strip charity fun day and see what happens…..Chances are they’ll send a sodding Transall over a Phantom!...


Please don't cos I can't make it there this year!!!


:grin: Fair enough, I'll ask them to cancel all participation this year... :wink:
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Skyflash
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Skyflash »

st24 wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Just following on from st24's last post, surely to God RIAT will push the boat out to get an F-4F next year? It'll be their last ever RIAT, so hopefully...?


Surely its too late - are'nt they finishing v early next year?? :dunno: :sad:

Ian G wrote:
st24 wrote:I can email the German defence attaché and ask for some aeroplanes please at the Abbots Bromley farmers strip charity fun day and see what happens…..Chances are they’ll send a sodding Transall over a Phantom!...


Please don't cos I can't make it there this year!!!


:grin: Fair enough, I'll ask them to cancel all participation this year... :wink:


Don't think so chief, in fact Ian Allan are running a tour to Wittmund next June which is billed as the 'F-4s of the German Air Force'.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by craig.mason »

was it a good airshow ?
is it worth buying this years airshow dvd?
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spiralkicker
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by spiralkicker »

Got to get it!!! the gliders will look a bit more exciting on fast forward.
Sort of a glider airfield attack role demo

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st24
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by st24 »

Skyflash wrote:Don't think so chief, in fact Ian Allan are running a tour to Wittmund next June which is billed as the 'F-4s of the German Air Force'.


Cool - at least it means we'll get to see one at Yeovilton... :whistle: :wink:
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Skyflash »

st24 wrote:
Skyflash wrote:Don't think so chief, in fact Ian Allan are running a tour to Wittmund next June which is billed as the 'F-4s of the German Air Force'.


Cool - at least it means we'll get to see one at Yeovilton... :whistle: :wink:


:grin:

Ooooh, you are awful...
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stonesfan
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by stonesfan »

spiralkicker wrote:Correct Raiford, but that doesnt mean JP cant express they wernt happy with it, to accept an inferior event (for what ever reason) is far more damaging to it than to criticise it, we all need feedback, if the customers of my business moan i need to listen to them, even if they dont know the facts i still need to listen and communicate..


Its become a common practice in the UK these days. You are expected to turn up and pay your money but woe betide should you ever criticise or not toe the party line!!

tu16
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by tu16 »

Thanks for the reply ST

My only point re the FLYING display was that Zeltweg (apart from the top location), seemed quite similar. A strong line-up, but the aircraft that got the plaudits at RIAT: the Rafale, Turk F16, A10, Dutch Apache & the Chinook weren't there, so surely the two displays are at least on a par?

Regarding the STATIC display, well Eastern Europe (East of Germany/Austria) certainly gave RIAT a miss this year. Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Montenegro, Slovakia, Hungary haven't travelled far at all in 2011 (hence location of Zeltweg & Izmir being important) and the Czechs and Poles appear to have adopted a "one show per country" rule (another reason why Zeltweg wins - with no regional competition), and, worryingly for RIAT, they chose Yeovilton and Leuchars in the UK.

I would agree, that in the past, RIAT would have been the first port of call for a lot of these items, but whether because of budgets, policy or distance, the Air Tattoo no longer seems to be the attraction that, in the 1990s especially, it was. Whether that is a sea change, or a temporary blip in hard economic times we will see.

As for 2012, well I don't see any change. the world will still be is economic meltdown, Air Force budgets will possibly be even tighter. The US, RIATs strongest supporter (and in the 2000s the provider of many of its highlights), is bankrupt. Unlikely that Greece, Spain, Portugal and maybe now Italy will be appearing on the Airshow circuit.

On the brighter side, its a Farnborough year and, hopefully the Libyan operation will be over. I'd even be hopeful for a German F4!

Out of interest ST, when was the last show that you thought RIAT had got it (nearly) right?

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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by 81TFW »

Fully accept that RIAT tried their best to attract as much participation as possible, don't have any issue with that, it's busy out there operationally and absolutely dire economically so we have to get what we can.

My problems are over things RIAT can control: the stalls, the static, and rearranging the flying programme. Those of you who were there on Sunday got a full programme as it was delayed to allow that to happen. Those of us that were unlucky enough to only be able to go on Saturday...very different story.

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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by TomG »

81TFW wrote:Fully accept that RIAT tried their best to attract as much participation as possible, don't have any issue with that, it's busy out there operationally and absolutely dire economically so we have to get what we can.

My problems are over things RIAT can control: the stalls, the static, and rearranging the flying programme. Those of you who were there on Sunday got a full programme as it was delayed to allow that to happen. Those of us that were unlucky enough to only be able to go on Saturday...very different story.


Care to expand re: Static?

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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by Macc »

81TFW wrote:Those of you who were there on Sunday got a full programme as it was delayed to allow that to happen. Those of us that were unlucky enough to only be able to go on Saturday...very different story.

In all fairness, the first day required 3/4 hours of re-jigging which would have made the show last till about 9.30..
The Sunday re-jigging was only needing an extra half an hour or so (and they missed the Patruilla Aguilla off the flying.)

Chris

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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by iainpeden »

Surely its too late - are'nt they finishing v early next year?? :dunno: :sad:

The crew at Yeovilton said they would fly until 2013.
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by st24 »

iainpeden wrote:The crew at Yeovilton said they would fly until 2013.


Wow, thats some long endurance mission... :wink: :grin:
Well thats great news, so we'll get to see another at Yeovilton in 2013 too then.... :handbag:
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Re: Thoughts on the show.

Post by st24 »

tu16 wrote:Out of interest ST, when was the last show that you thought RIAT had got it (nearly) right?


Thanks for the polite words - I usually get virtually beaten up when I argue my point in a RIAT discussion... :dizzy:

Hmm thats a very good question - theres little doubt that the tables have turned and RIAT certainly plays second fiddle to SBAC in terms of juicy items and so even years are better than odd. Perhaps 2006; it had a very good mix but I think the cancelled '08 event was (would have been) right on the RIAT button. :up:
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