London Riots

[PhilW]

Its not that simple.

This aspect of it is actually. These areas developed during the eighties as a direct result of policy, and have festered since through the generations until the current situation where they just don't give a feck about anything. You can't change history just because you don't like it.

[vandal]

It seems all hope is not lost entirely, there's still some parents out there prepared to do what it takes to get the message through to their children.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html

[Abingdonman]

I was never a Thatcher fan,but i wouldnt blame her lot willy nilly for all the troubles of the UK right now,a good part of it no doubt,but all governments have their faults for someone....
It's silly to beat around the bush,so to our way of thinking in this family,NL screwed up BIG time,when NL got in power they didn't start off too bad,but then they went haywire after winning a couple of elections,they proceeded to seemingly do everything they could to help everyone but the law abiding,the responsible parent's,the low paid working,and the straight,white,english,and the fat cats got even fatter!.....NL policies have also made sure we will be an overcrowded country for evermore,every place above a village in the UK will have some developement in the pipeline,it may be the like of medium size towns like Hemel Hempstead & cities like Oxford today that bear the brunt right now,but eventually they will get the 'leafy little villages' to take their share of grief!
and with that bombshell ......goodnight!

[stratocaster]

I was never a Thatcher fan,but i wouldnt blame her lot willy nilly for all the troubles of the UK right now,a good part of it no doubt,but all governments have their faults for someone....
It's silly to beat around the bush,so to our way of thinking in this family,NL screwed up BIG time,when NL got in power they didn't start off too bad,but then they went haywire after winning a couple of elections,they proceeded to seemingly do everything they could to help everyone but the responsible parent's,the low paid working,and the straight,white,english,NL policies have made sure we will be an overcrowded country for evermore,every place above a village in the UK will have some developement in the pipeline,it may be the like of medium size towns like Hemel Hempstead & cities like Oxford today that bear the brunt right now,but eventually they will get the 'leafy little villages' to take their share of grief!
and with that bombshell ......goodnight!

Well said!

[Abingdonman]

I actually forgot to add that the law abiding folk were made to be more like the criminal,the banks saga and the fat cats got fatter(Added to post now) ...the latter especially has made us as mad as hell at time's,lottery pay offs for 5 minutes work etc ...that sort of thing gets under your skin,and if you are struggling or have next to nothing,could well be a good catalyst for rebelling against society......you kind of feel as if the worlds passing by,with everyone rolling in it ,except your 'kind'
as you can tell,I've been 'thereabouts' myself!...whats more,we thought the new government were going to put things on the right path,but then again we thought NL were going to create good things at one time!

[AlexC]

A youth worker from Tottenham was talking on the Radio 4 this morning, and he mentioned the case of a 14 year old black boy who had punched his mother in the face when she'd tried to get him to go to school. No mention of a dad of course. He also talked about all the 14 and 15 year old mothers. Children trying to bring up children. Hopeless situation, can only get worse.

[PhilW]

In days gone by they'd put a bulldozer through the slums and relocate them....

[phreakf4]

In days gone by they'd put a bulldozer through the slums and relocate them....

Which is why for years (and maybe still, I haven't spent much time in that area in the last ten years or so) Swindon (and other towns and cities) had a huge problem with yobs and anti-social behaviour due to the "London overflow" housing estates. Once a yob always a yob, they just take their attitudes and behaviour with them. Though having said that, there are "London overflow" estates in and around Farnborough and Aldershot which once had bad reputations but are slowly improving, perhaps because many of the residents now own their houses and therefore they and not the local authority have to pay for repairs made necessary by such behaviour.

[stratocaster]

In days gone by they'd put a bulldozer through the slums and relocate them....

That's only shifting the problem elsewhere,,however build areas of containment for those of that mindset and not only will the police know where they are,the authorities will know where they are too,,oh I forgot,that's too simple a solution and we live in the namby pamby UK where EU Criminal err...I mean human rights laws steamroller over sensible laws!

[Paludrinclub]

Got to have a laugh Cameron as the the police up in Glasgow how they fixed the problem then went and asked someone in Amercia the same why doesnt he use common sense that if he has any and take the advice from the Scottish police as it seem to work the system tat they have in place. Plus back in the 80s you would not have this type of carry on. Rant over and out.

[Abingdonman]

We've heard Cameron say families will be evicted,and IDS say thugs will have their benefit stopped...
A. Even if they do evict families,and by gum they have a job on their hands...they will have to rehouse them,unfortunately we have had one or two of these families rehoused near us,we are on the edge of an estate,MOST families here are decent,and decent families dont deserve to have things disrupted by scum moving in.....why cant they build massive estates somewhere isolated to enable all the unsociables to live together in harmony!
B.If they stopped any benefits,and I doubt whether they will be able to do that to any degree,what do you think would happen,where do you think they will get money from,it would be a disaster IDS (I think he knows that really )

The problem must be the fact they are all bunched together in rabbit hutches..the worse 'bad' areas in Oxford are exactly the same 'bad' areas in my time in Oxford in the 60s (admittedly'badder' now than they were,and even the 'gooder' areas are getting 'badder' )

Cameron & IDS...put your dunce hats on!

[AlexC]

A friend of ours bought her own small house on a small private deveopment on the other side of the town from us some time ago. She's not well off, and it's a struggle to pay her mortgage etc. A housing association have now bought up some of the houses around her and installed a number of 'neighbours from hell' (you can bet your life that the tax payer pays their rent and council tax) who are making our friends life a misery. So unfair.

[aceyone]

why cant they build massive estates somewhere isolated to enable all the unsociables to live together in harmony!

They have--they call them Travelers Sites !

[vandal]

A friend of ours bought her own small house on a small private deveopment on the other side of the town from us some time ago. She's not well off, and it's a struggle to pay her mortgage etc. A housing association have now bought up some of the houses around her and installed a number of 'neighbours from hell' (you can bet your life that the tax payer pays their rent and coucncil tax) who are making our friends life a misery. So unfair.

Same thing happened to us a number of years back. We questioned it and were told that as we were all decent neighbours it was up to US to re-habilitate the undesirables back into society. We had to move not long after.

You can take pigs and put them in the Hilton. But they'd still be pigs.

[Paludrinclub]

But moving people isnt going to fix the problem as they will start up again where they have moved to. Watch out for the teachers going on strike shortly.

[pbeardmore]

the knee jerk reactions from the government are both clearly not thought through and, more worrying, an indication that they have no real solutions or ambitions to look at the long term underlying issues. Trouble is, these short term policies are lapped up by the Daily Mail brigade who basicaly either want to see rioters hung, in prison or in the gutter with no housing or food. (or preferably all three)

[mais01]

Well what an interesting week it has been to say the least.
As is usual we are seeing the ologists and learned academics along with various supposed community representatives all plying their views on the matter.
Frankly I’m fed up hearing all the excuses and the cries of harsh judicial consequences.

I think we need to be clear on a few points.
Firstly the vast majority did not riot in those sink hole communities but we have to acknowledge a significant number did.
It was not all youths and gangs as portrayed in the media and it certainly wasn’t purely the domain of the poverty stricken and jobless.
Protest is one thing this was not protest in the true sense of the word in any way shape or fashion.
It was out and out criminality followed by copycat incidents up and down the country.

Everyone was caught on the hop by the sheer scale of this, but lets not kid ourselves that businesses aren’t robbed hourly, we have conveniently called this mass episode looting, frankly it goes on daily perhaps as dramatically but it goes on.
People are robbed and beaten every day we have just become accustomed to it and take little notice anymore.

We have been preached to in recent days by politicians telling us we live in broken Britain, well spotted and I’m all for fixing it.
But the fixing does not start on the estates in South London or any other it starts at the very top of society and works down.
MP's, bankers and businesses milking fortunes out of the country one way or another seem absolutely oblivious to the image of themselves they portray.
Even a young gang banger on a housing estate can see the top of society are morally corrupt at worst crooks, so he/she sets his sights on the same trappings of life the elite take for granted.
We often hear of leading by example, well the example being set is not a good one.

Cameron today went through a list of what’s wrong, its very simple list everything and everyone expect government whose policies in recent decades have produced our current society.

We spend billions in aid and support outside this country, the old saying charity begins at home is well and truly gone.
Instead we seem to think its good to send financial aid to nuclear states, we spend billions bailing out banks and financial institutions whilst cutting home grown charity organisations and council services.
I cannot for one moment condone any act of violence of destruction the likes of which we have not seen for many decades on our streets, but i do think we need to take a look and acknowledge we have a significant number of extremely angry individuals who I suspect do genuinely feel left out of society.
I’m no wishy washy do gooder but I do think we need to take a long hard look at what is going on, if we fail to do so we will see repeats of last week.

We have seen the justice system working at full pace and a lot of bandwagonning with calls for evictions and stopping of benefits etc, yep that will solve the problem.
Turf someone out of their house and you then have a whole family who will no longer care an iota and be more readily open to criminality.
Why lock them up it’s a drain on the prison system a system that is ineffective as it isn’t seen as a punishment in any case.
Get them out very publically working to put right the damage they have caused, nothing better for street cred than having to rebuild/ repair damage that has been caused.
There has been a lot of criticism for the police, well I might agree there were far too few available to deal with Tottenham effectively and subsequently other areas, we have the police service we have asked for yet demand more and more of it.
We all vote and all have a voice we have a society of our own making .
Police have been their own worst enemy in some respects with the number of miscarriages of justice and events that have damaged public trust, that said I don’t have a problem with someone throwing petrol bombs or other missiles being smacked with a big stick its all a matter of proportionality.
Police should not exactly be feared but they most certainly should be respected.
Discipline seems to be a bygone word , it needs to be reintroduced again with proportionality punishment needs to be an option but it has to be meaningful and effective in order to make it a good but sensible deterrent for culprits and others.
There’s no quick fix and no simple one word answer, we have had a wake up call and action is needed in the cool light of day.
Kneejerk reactions serve no purpose and have been seen to consistently fail.

[AlexC]

Dr. David Starkey caused a bit of a furore on Newsnight on Friday by saying that a lot of white working class boys (and girls for that matter) were turning 'black'. In other words they admire black Caribbean culture, and are even starting to speak 'Jafrican' which most of us will have already noticed, know wot I mean innit?! The two other people that were discussing the issue of the riots with Starkey came down on him like a ton of bricks, stopping him from explaining just what he meant and calling him a racist. I'm no great fan of Starkey, but I have to say that I felt a bit sorry for him. He tried to explain that he had been involved in Jamie Oliver's 'Dream School' project, so had some experience in the subject, but got shouted down. I was not at all surprised that when the Newsnight programme was discussed on the Jeremy Vine programme (hosted by Vanessa Feltz this week) today that the vast majority of people that rung in having heard Newsnight on Friday thought that although Starkey was maybe a bit clumsy in the way he said it, basically he was right in what he was saying.

[pbeardmore]

I think Spike Lee puts it in a better way and has been putting this point over for many years. I would far rather have seen him on Newsnight. Starkey was a little out of his comfort zone. He should stick to Henry VIII

http://www.resourcesforlife.com/docs/item4179

"It's much more dangerous now, and the reason I say that is this: when I was growing up, we looked up to guys who were great athletes, guys who knew how to talk to ladies, and third but not least, guys that were intelligent," Lee told the DePauw crowd. "Now somehow between then and today, the whole value system has been upended, what's down is up, what's up is down. Because amongst many African-American youth today, if you strive to become educated and get your grades and speak correct English and be able to speak a sentence without profanity, then you are ridiculed and ostracized as being a 'white boy' or 'white girl' or 'sellout', an 'oreo', which is crazy. But if you're on the corner, drinkin' a 40, smokin' a blunt, holding your privates, then you're keepin' it real. And that is pathological, that is genocide."

So one generation worships Cassius Clay, now we have "advanced" to Snoop Dog, 50 Cent etc. I think thats a pretty good point that Lee makes.

PS if any thread becomes long enough, eventually Jamie Oliver comes up.

[DanO1978]

Both Cameron and that non-entity Milliband looked utterly pathetic on the news tonight. Cameron's strong words won't lead to action, and Milliband looks and sounds risible, before you even get to the ridiculous lack of substance in what he said.

Frankly, neither main party appears to have the answers on this one - which creates a frightening vacuum. Expect the equally repugnant far reaches of both flanks to make political gains from the riots.

[AlexC]

Starkey was a little out of his comfort zone. He should stick to Henry VIII.

Yes he was. But he must have been invited onto the programme, the producer obviously thinking that he could contribute something. Perhaps he should have refused. He is a great historian whatever else anyone may think of him. And whatever you may think, the Jamie Oliver reference is relevant in this case. David Starkey and the others did their best to educate those lost boys and girls at the Dream School!

[Abingdonman]

I just watched the David Starkey thing to see what the fuss was about,looked to me like it was 2 + a BBC representitive against David Starkey,BBC bias strikes again!

[stratocaster]

I am not ashamed to be part of the shoot 'em and hang 'em high brigade,you do wrong,you should be punished accordingly,,and this is as a direct result of do-gooder/namby pamby/EU Human rights/Liberty et al! Take them all to a deserted island,including the rioters and let them all live like the scum they are.Then when we get bored,,get a few Tonka runs in with paveways and blow them all to shark and fly food!

[AlexC]

I just watched the David Starkey thing to see what the fuss was about,looked to me like it was 2 + a BBC representitive against David Starkey,BBC bias strikes again!

He was only saying what many people believe if only they'd be honest and admit it. I was surprised at the reaction of the author of the book about chav's.

In an on-line poll 82% agree with what Starkey was saying, and that it wasn't racist.

[pbeardmore]

Jamie Oliver's school thing was a pure gimick and just another project for him to raise cash and keep him in the public eye. If we have to look towards faux-cockney, scooter riding tv celeb cooks for the answers, then we are in bigger trouble than I thought.