"To GB, or not to GB?"

[Deacon]

OK I wasn’t going to get involved in the discussion about Group Builds (GB’s) or be involved in trying to bring some conclusion to how UKAR model members want the GB’s to run in the future, but I have to, even if it’s just to get things clear in my mind.

The current set-up of GB’s running for three months with two of them running side by side was started with Ben Montgomery proposing and being supported by many of us. When the first set of GB’s were to end, members put forward further topics and these were added on to the list and dates arranged for each.

I can’t believe that the last lot of builds proposed start July this year and finish September. In all I think we put together 18 months of builds to bolt onto the first lot of ideas and now they are soon to be over.

You all know that I am probably the most prolific builder on these GB’s and I must admit that I enjoy them very much. The structure that was set up worked for me having the time most evenings to melt plastic and usually working in 1:72 scale. Knowing what GB was up next, looking through the stash and identifying what kits could be made, and when, helped to ensure my involvement.

But, probably because we are a small group of modellers, the numbers of those taking part, at times have been very low and the initial excitement of a particular GB has not always materialized. This happens on all forums, but our small group base makes it look worse.

It has been proposed that the GB’s should not continue in the same format. They should perhaps be longer in duration (which will mean those who work in 1:48 and 1:32 will be able to take part). Also, there is a suggestion that rather than have a rigid list of GB’s, that we allow members to just run with a suggestion they have.

So, what will we decide before the end of the Arab Air Power and WW1 GB’s?

I want more people involved and so the longer duration of each GB makes sense. With the running of a GB, do you guys see it as a case of a member proposing a topic and we wait and see how many respond in the positive to the suggestion? Also, what is to stop another member suggesting that another GB runs alongside one already proposed? What is to stop a third member doing the same thing, and so on? Let’s face it, this is an open forum, none of us can dictate what another should do (only UKAR moderators can do that in extreme circumstances).

On Britmodeller (a much bigger modeller forum I know) they have a GB moderator and they co-ordinate proposals and have created the rule that so many modellers must indicate that they will take part before a GB is given approval. The moderator has almost total power and their word is accepted by GB proposers/hosts.

Do we need something similar, not a moderator, but some guidelines to help proposers/hosts and those who wish to take part in GB’s to structure this part of our hobby?


With this in mind, if we are to continue with Group Builds, I would like to make the following suggestions:

GB’s to run for 4 months
No more than 3 GB’s to run at the same time
Proposer to have positive feedback from 5 members that they will take part

But do you want them at all?

There have been times when the GB side of things is very separate entity to the Aircraft Modelling forum. People aren’t aware what is going on on the GB side of things, or aren’t particularly bothered and vice versa. Should we be thinking more in line with what a lot of other modellers do and just put a WIP on the Aircraft Modelling forum and abandon GB’s altogether? Heck, some of us might get a lot more posts on our build that way!

This would be so much easier if we were in a pub sat around with pints in hand getting worried looks from the locals as we defended why we wanted to have or not have GB’s.

“Er, Stan. What’s a GB?”
“Great Britain you numpty. They are discussing politics no doubt. For and against a Great Britain”
“Dangerous, very dangerous!”

Alan

[Craig]

I really don't know. I'm not sure how valid my views are as what I build tends to be a pretty narrow focus (modern ish RAF) and as such many of the GB's aren't relevant to me. OK I could build something different, but as someone who likes to build what I know, stuff like the Arab air power GB just isn't for me.

As for the GB's that do appeal to me thuogh, well mixed views. The main purpose for me using this forum is because of its strenths, it's always had a solid but relatively small core of enthusiastic members who will advise and encourage modellers even of my fairly limited skills. Of late though both on the GB side and the main forum feedback has been hard to come by and combine this with a lack of time I've just not really bothered with WIps (to be fair I haven't done much modelmaking either). But, to get back on topic, for me the GBs need to be a group of like minded people who will help, support and advise each other. Without that the whole exercise is pointless. Do the GBs really foster that spirit? I'm not sure. Numbers taking part is no doubt a factor. Timing for me is also another. Work means that at certain times of year I have very little time, and in general I'm not blessed with acres of it. Combine that with the fact I'm no speed builder and some GBs I've just not entered as I have no chance of completing them on time.

So to sum up, your idea of increasing the timescale will help (though I'd go even further and say 6 months) but a lot of its success is down to how members use them. for me, I want my builds to be critiqued, praised where relevant, criticised where necessary and corrections made where I can. GBs are a great opportunity for knowledge sharing as everyone here has their own specialisms. A minimum number before a GB runs would help this, but in general things just need to wake up a bit. Answer to that? I just don't know.

Sorry that's all a little rambling, but hopefully something of value can be picked from it

[ArabJazzie]

Alan and all,
Was just about to put up some updates for what i have been doing with the current GBs but as ive sometimes demonstrated in the past, i need more time as 1, i take on too many builds at once and 2, life gets in the way far too often. For example, i should be down at Yeovilton tomorrow but have had to cancel that for family reasons.

Im fully behind the GBs, even if the theme doesnt fully fit in with my own current themes. If i cant participate, i usually do another build or 10 and try to keep it within the same time-line. Extending the duration would help and to that end im sure Scott has suggested 6 months for his Arab Air Power GB. I wont be taking part in the next 2 as im not interested in WWI and have spent my money on too many other kits this year already!!! I do have a project in mind for the 6 month time-line for the Arab GB.

I agree with with what you have written there Alan and i know who my nomination for moderator/caretaker for looking after the GBs is going to be!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[scotthldr]

First off, I'm glad that someone else has raised this topic.

Yes the GB's are dead in their current format, eveyone starts off with the same "I'm in" "count me in" remarks and within 2 weeks they have dropped off the face of the Earth never to be seen again. There are fewer than a dozen members that have actually completed the builds they started out on. Ok things crop up and modelling time can be scarce to some, but it's happening all the time. So where do we as a open forum go from here.

I personally would like to see them continue in some way or another.

Increasing timescales would it work? Well we'll find out with my Arab Air Power GB as that has been extended to 5 months(as fas as I'm aware this was ok with everyone) from 01/07/12, due to the Airshow season and hopefully good weather eating away at any modellling time, so time will tell there.

Dropping the GB calendar and allowing those that wish to hold their own GB's as and when might work if everyone applied common sense, there would be no point in announcing your GB to start tomorrow if there was another two currently running. Also it would be good practice to gauge interest in your subject before hand.

The hosts need to be active and promote their own GB's this is one problem that has led to the current collapse, with quite often other members stepping in the night before, this isn't fair on those that have gone out and bought kits especially.

The introduction of the GB sub section imo has damaged the whole modelling section as it makes it very difficult to keep tabs on what's happening and took away alot of the WIP's from the main section. A total re hash of the modelling section is called for in order to make things fresh, interesting and more user friendly, we need to move ahead and improve our surroundings.

So some suggestions from me
1/ Longer timescales(4months maybe longer depending on circumstances)
2/ Get rid of the concurrent format and replace it with an over-lapping format(keeps things fresh)
3/ Overall improvements to the layout of the modelling section are required to make things more user friendly.
4/ Total support from those interested.

Hopefully they will continue as I've got another subject in mind.

[Cimmerian]

I've never taken part in a GB and as such my opinion on it probably doesn't mean a thing...but I'll offer it up anyway.

I always look at them and think I'll take part but my modelling mojo has taken some serious damage lately and I haven't managed to finish anything due to some disaster happening along the way. I have decided that a lot of my problems are down to my aged eyeballs starting to fail, so I have moved up to 1/48. Starting out easy I'm doing an Airfix Spitfire and I'm really enjoying it. I'm nowhere near up to the standard that is seen here on a regular basis but I'm fairly happy with it.

I would like to take part, and I'm aiming to put at least one into the WW1 GB when it comes up. I would like to see the time for the build expanded a bit as I don't get much free time but I would like to take part, pick up some pointers and generally give everyone a chuckle when they see what kind of a mess I end up with.

It would be nice to have an easy to find list of what the GBs are going to be, though

[Deacon]

I agree with with what you have written there Alan and i know who my nomination for moderator/caretaker for looking after the GBs is going to be!

Oh go on then. "I nominate Geoff to be ......."

It was more about the guidelines that were set down rather than the use of a moderator mate. I don't think we need a GB Mod.

Anyway guys, we are talking, which is good and we are getting ideas on how to move forward. It would be great to have input from a fair percentage of modellers on the forum to get a feel for what you want.

Ken, GB's are, amongst other things, there to generate interest in a particular topic or aircraft. If you take part in the occasional one that takes your fancy, then great. . I've certainly learnt a lot about particular aircraft and alterations required to a build whilst doing them. Slightly better than just presenting a finished build, as it is too late to make changes then.

Scott, you're right of course about the trial 5 month GB of your Arab Air Power, it will give an idea how many more forum members can join in due to the increased time scale. And I would like to see one modelling forum, not two as we have now. What format that would take I don't really know. Perhaps some of our active model-making moderators could advise?

Alan

[scotthldr]

I would like to see a format along the lines of

Modelling section(open the section up and the following appears)

1/ Gallery ; includes both finished General builds and GB builds which would be put into a single thread for each GB
2/ WIP's ; both General Build and GB stuff
3/ Modelling Discussion; with a dedicated GB pinned thread
4/ Reference and Advice;
5/ Archive

Don't know how hard that would be to do or indeed possible.

[Jamesv9820]

+1 for this idea, the section needs a good tidy up and better navigation which will help new blood finds their way around

Regarding GB's I would love to take part in some but half the problem with me is time and commitment as I often build for others and it is simply not possible to enter due to those reasosn, given the timescale. So increasing the timescale would help on my part.

I also think that the issue of commtment - i.e. the number of people actually completing is an issue, and one of the key point below is section 4/ - Help and Advice, this might help and encourage others to join in.. We have some really talented guys in here with all different skills so why not utilise them?

James

I would like to see a format along the lines of

Modelling section(open the section up and the following appears)

1/ Gallery ; includes both finished General builds and GB builds which would be put into a single thread for each GB
2/ WIP's ; both General Build and GB stuff
3/ Modelling Discussion; with a dedicated GB pinned thread
4/ Reference and Advice;
5/ Archive

Don't know how hard that would be to do or indeed possible.

[ArabJazzie]

I would like to see a format along the lines of

Modelling section(open the section up and the following appears)

1/ Gallery ; includes both finished General builds and GB builds which would be put into a single thread for each GB
2/ WIP's ; both General Build and GB stuff
3/ Modelling Discussion; with a dedicated GB pinned thread
4/ Reference and Advice;
5/ Archive

Don't know how hard that would be to do or indeed possible.

Like what you are suggesting there Scott but imho, discussion and refs should be first 2 on the list, but then im still learning! Lets face it, we are always gonna look at the Galley and WIPs anyway, wherever they are.

Due to previous comments on here, I am not sure there is the desire to change this too much but hope to be proved wrong guys.

In my time contributing here, there has been only 2 or 3 constants along the way. There are those who have went onto other things, some who come and go and sometimes return and those who disappear. When you consider the small number of members on here that are modellers, maybe we were on a hiding to nothing from the start with GBs. Maybe we just need a wee bit of marketing around the site to see if we hook a few others? Might even uncover a bit of competition for those better than i!!!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[scotthldr]

but imho, discussion and refs should be first 2 on the list, but then im still learning! Lets face it, we are always gonna look at the Galley and WIPs anyway, wherever they are.
Geoff.

Exactly we will look at them where ever they are, but for those that are maybe looking at the section with a view to get back into the hobby or those just visiting you want to hit them with the good stuff first, bit like a garage you don't put the used bangers at the front of the forecourt.

[ArabJazzie]

Hence why i suggest a bit of an add campaign elsewhere on Airshows to see if we can entice a few new contributors. A good proportion of garages use advertising, my mates website even has the bangers, well trade ins to clear, at the top of the list!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[Deacon]

Six members wanting to see GB's continue in one form or another.

This is a good start, but we need a load more people to at least say that they would be looking to take part in them. I'm not suggesting that if people say "Yes, I want them" that they have to take part in everyone! Just some idea of the uptake we would have if they were still run on this site.

Alan

[Cimmerian]

Looking at the list that I found lurking (It would be nice to have an easy to find list that gives the schedule) I will definitely come out to play for the WW1 but the Arab one holds little interest for me. As my interest in modelling has returned ( ) I may even have a pop at getting something done for the current ones.

[Craig]

As an idea, could more GBs be run over a longer period of time? To take the next two GBs as an example, these are both interesting subjects that will draw some uinteresting builds no doubt, but as the main interests on here seem to be WW2 and/or RAF it seems to exclude a lot. Wouldn't having more open builds that cover a greater range of topics be a good move? I think this is going back to what exactly are GBs for? (not a sarcastic comment by the way, an answer to that will go a long way towards deciding direction, but to me it's still getting enough people to contribute that's the issue, even if not through actually building just help, encouragement and advice. Some on here, particularly Scott but he's certainly not alone, are very good with this and it adds a lot!)

[Deacon]

Wouldn't having more open builds that cover a greater range of topics be a good move?

I think a greater range is good, but you still need to be specific as too general a subject could be covered with anyone's WIP that they post in the modelling section.

Things like WW2 British Single Engined Aircraft GB, might be quite good and then you could do German Single......, American Single..... So specific, but quite a lot covered.

Alan

[Cimmerian]

Things like WW2 British Single Engined Aircraft GB, might be quite good and then you could do German Single......, American Single..... So specific, but quite a lot covered.

Alan

Specific but vague - I like the sound of that, plus a little more time. It could be a winning combination.

I would certainly put in an effort at joining in with that sort of set-up.

[Thommo95]

I myself have never taken part in a group build, mainly due to timescale. Due to my limited stash size only at about 8 kits at the moment, I am fairly limited to what I can build. But despite being relatively new to the modelling section I hope to be able to participate and support future group builds with the extended timescale, it gives me a chance to purchase all the components and make a kit, around other builds over the same time period. So I hope to be able to participate in the longer running Arab Air Power GB, for which I hope to build a Lebanese Hawker Hunter (thanks to Scott who has located some decals for the Lebanese Hunters)

[Logster]

Hi

Well being a new returner to the hobby i have never taken part in a group build and I have no kits at all in a stash - just buy them as i go along at the moment. But I am interested in trying one and it would be good if the list of upcoming builds was more accessible, for example I would like to do an Iranian F-14 maybe in the arab air power build if it counts (and if I can get hold of the decals). I think the idea of putting a gallery and a WIP thread first is really good. I know I always head to them on other sites and have found them inspiring to get back into the hobby and start to post the odd model on this forum. It might encourage a few more participants.
Just a few thoughts = hope they are useful.
matt

[scotthldr]

Great stuff guys, keep the input coming as it's the only way to gauge interest in it.

After talking to others on here I would like to put a proposal forward in how we can move forward with the idea. Before anyone starts shouting remember it's only a proposal and is open to criticism(only if you can back it up) and further input from the members and ultimately Admin approval.

The future:

1/ Change name from "Group Build" to either "Shared Interest Build" or "Special Interest Build" to better reflect the main objectives behind the idea of having such a modelling activity.

2/ Get rid of the present calendar format and instead opt for an open program. Each person wishing to host a SIB would decide on dates, timescales and the general rules. The only thing I would set in stone is that each SIB must attract 5 members in order for it to proceed. Obviously the above would require the use of common sense when deciding on dates as there would be little point in running your own SIB while another two or even one where on the go, although overlapping of SIB's is to be expected it would be also be good practice to leave some space between SIB's as to avoid over use and ultimately bleeding the idea dry. Depending on numbers interested it may be required to have a calender booking system in place.

3/ The host must play an active role in his/her SIB, weather it be by actual participation, providing reference material or general advice and help. Failure to play an active role will forfeit that person from hosting any future SIB's

4/ Any builds within the SIB must be in a Work In Progress (WIP) format with finished builds being showcased in a separate gallery for each SIB.

5/ The host will be responsible for the guidelines/rules regards their subject, while following the general posting rules of UKAR. Although it is the intention to have this as a modelling section self control affair, the Admin or Moderating staff will have overall control and final say in any matters requiring their input.


The above is merely my proposal and is open for discussion and amendment, if anyone else has ideas of their own then please share and we can all get involved.

[Jamesv9820]

+1 for this.

[Deacon]

Yep. I like these ideas too.

Alan

[ArabJazzie]

Great stuff guys, keep the input coming as it's the only way to gauge interest in it.

After talking to others on here I would like to put a proposal forward in how we can move forward with the idea. Before anyone starts shouting remember it's only a proposal and is open to criticism(only if you can back it up) and further input from the members and ultimately Admin approval.

Hope this doesnt appear as criticism as its not supposed to be from someone who i think is a poor second to Deacons contribution to the GBs. From another thread on here though, i propose a Single Type Group Build with the F-16 as the subject as a good proportion of the posters there have them as future builds. Might even be enough for a Single Mark GB with the F-16I Sufa!

The future:

1/ Change name from "Group Build" to either "Shared Interest Build" or "Special Interest Build" to better reflect the main objectives behind the idea of having such a modelling activity.

Dont see what changing the name would achieve as a group build is a group build wherever its carried out across the internet model community. Im probably a bit sheltered in the model building sites i visit but its a GB wherever i look.

2/ Get rid of the present calendar format and instead opt for an open program. Each person wishing to host a SIB would decide on dates, timescales and the general rules. The only thing I would set in stone is that each SIB must attract 5 members in order for it to proceed. Obviously the above would require the use of common sense when deciding on dates as there would be little point in running your own SIB while another two or even one where on the go, although overlapping of SIB's is to be expected it would be also be good practice to leave some space between SIB's as to avoid over use and ultimately bleeding the idea dry. Depending on numbers interested it may be required to have a calender booking system in place.

You mention in there exactly why we need a calender. Overlapping seems to be working somewhere else but its only a couple of weeks. Talking of numbers, i think one of the mistakes we made the last time was not voting on the subjects that were put forward. Might have dumped some chaff and kept the wheat and the Arab GB for example would have been higher up the list.

3/ The host must play an active role in his/her SIB, weather it be by actual participation, providing reference material or general advice and help. Failure to play an active role will forfeit that person from hosting any future SIB's

A bit harsh as well people know, life has a bad habit of turning round and biting you in the erse.

4/ Any builds within the SIB must be in a Work In Progress (WIP) format with finished builds being showcased in a separate gallery for each SIB.

5/ The host will be responsible for the guidelines/rules regards their subject, while following the general posting rules of UKAR. Although it is the intention to have this as a modelling section self control affair, the Admin or Moderating staff will have overall control and final say in any matters requiring their input.


The above is merely my proposal and is open for discussion and amendment, if anyone else has ideas of their own then please share and we can all get involved.

Hope we can build up quite a section on here again!
Arabest,
Geoff.

[DerekF]

I think some of these points are too draconian – it’s a hobby after all and rules shouldn’t really be too severe. Use of words like “must” puts me off certainly.
I agree with Goeff – they are GBs throughout the modelling world and I don’t see the need or indeed point in changing it.
I’ve said all along that all that was really needed as far as I was concerned was to make them longer. What people need is encouragement to take part not more rules which may counter-productive.

I put this together in an idle moment and it makes interesting reading from a participation point of view. There are only 6 people who have contributed more than 5 models to the GBs.
Only 14 out 24 GBs have had more than 5 finished models.



Here's a list of GBs proposed to encourage more participation and is shamelessly plagiarized from other modelling forums.

Everybody's favourite - Airfix only
Big scale GB - 1/32 and above
OOB - no aftermarket - as it comes out of the box
What you've seen this at airshows or whatever - backed up with a photo of your subject.

[Deacon]

Yes!

Come on guys, let's thrash out ideas so at least we have GB's/SIB's on this forum.

The Group Build or Shared Interest Build titles was one of the things I ummed and arred about. As has been said, the modelling fraternity know what a Group Build is.

I think some of these points are too draconian – it’s a hobby after all and rules shouldn’t really be too severe. Use of words like “must” puts me off certainly.

It is a hobby and is fun. If you want to simply build a kit, do it as a WIP on the main Aircraft Modelling forum. The 'rules' that Scott has put forward are to try to structure the GB's (can I just use that for the mo ) and try to give more responsibility to hosts. Look at what has happened with the last lot of GB's? Life gets in the way, of course it does, but we had a hell of a lot of GB's where other members had to step in to host them.

Perhaps, with the putting forward of a proposal for the next GB during one that is running, it will help hosts to be able to run them. They aren't tied to running a GB 12 months away. Who knows what that person will be going through a year from the date they suggested a topic!

So, the running calender would be great as a host will be proposing the next GB in 3 months time, a lot easier for them to be in charge of it and, to a certain extent, plan life around it.

And having 5 members agree to create builds in any particular GB will get us away from Gb's where there isn't that much interest, if any!

It would be great to have GB's where the host has a lot of knowledge about the subject, this is one of fascinating sides of this form of modelling. Unfortunately, I know next to nothing about any aircraft, period or nation.

We are not all going to agree on the GB's proposed and their structure, but if we can get some common ground on most of their aspect, that is what we (UKAR modellers) are looking for.

51 builds! I must be slipping.

Alan

[scotthldr]

Geoff you leave me a bit confused here with regard s to your reference of the F16 GB. You mention "from another thread on here" but then refer to it as "a good proportion of the posters there have them" can you please clarify.

The reason for changing the name in my proposal is to reflect the idea better, we can hardly call it a Group Build when your lucky if 4 people join in.

A calendar as in the present format isn't needed and was/is too tying, a calendar showing what months/weeks are available to anyone wishing to host a subject would be beneficial. The may both be called calendars but their purpose is different. Again you refer to "Overlapping seems to be working somewhere else" can you please clarify where? The idea behind the no voting was that anyone wishing to host a GB had the opportunity to do so, hence bringing people into the modelling circle which was one of the main intentions behind the GB. Regards where the Arab Air Power GB was in the queue I don't see what you're getting at, at the end of the day it was a queue and something had to be last I've never had a problem with it being there.

The reason behind the "harsh" rule of the host must play an active role is to make those aware that they are taking on a commitment not only to themselves but for the others that have supported him/her by buying kits and materials in order to partake in the subject. If people don't want the commitment then don't step forward. However with the idea that there won't be a 18 month pre booked calendar the likelihood of this happening is small, if for personnel reasons the host couldn't take part then I wouldn't for see any problem in re scheduling to a later date. If people just simply vanish with out explanation then the rule would apply. My Arab Air Power GB is a prime example of why 18 mth calendars don't work, at the time of suggesting the idea I had no idea my partner was going to be expecting our 2nd child bang in the middle of it, and with having to find a new home as well my time is going to be very tight, however I will take an active role including building but can't promise I'll finish it.


Derek, without rules/guidelines the place would run amok, ok no one likes rules but they appear everywhere in day to day life. What I've proposed isn't any worse than the general rules of the UKAR forum.

Extending each timeframe alone isn't going to make a difference to the overall poor turn out all it's going to do is drag things on and your table proves just that. There were too many GB's without any kind of break between them and the idea became stale very quickly as we don't have the member base to support it in it's current format, hence why we need to start from scratch.

Your list of GB's from other sites I don't see what they have to do with what happens on here, and from the ones you've listed they're so restricted that it would be counter productive.