Red Dot Sight

[Waddo Wabbit]

What are your thoughts on using a RDS (Red Dot Sight) at airshows ?

These are very useful for bridge camera users when shooting birds in flight.
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/AllAboutBi ... ument_view

Has anybody tried one at an airshow or seen one being used ?

[Hatstand]

That's an interesting idea.

The thing is... they offer no magnification... and my initial thought was, well doesn't that make things difficult? For fast-moving subjects, how do you set your focal length (zoom) if you can't see what the camera is framing? (I was thinking of my Fuji HS10 - at 720mm max focal length I could be taking a shot of just an air intake. At the other extreme, it could be just a dot in the sky).

But then I thought, for airshows you'd probably just choose between a few select focal lengths (like having a set of prime lenses that you can swap almost instantly). With practice you'd just know what's going to be in the frame.

And the lack of magnification could actually be an advantage: at high camera magnifications, it is very easy to lose tracking on a distant or fast-moving subject. Then you waste time zooming out to wide angle, re-acquiring (bearing in mind the subject may now be out-of-focus, making it even harder), and then zooming back in again. RDS with no magnification, might give you a wide-angle targeting view ALL the time. Hard to tell just what field of view you get through them though - I imagine the non-tube types might be better.

Given how cheap they are, I'm tempted to try this - not just on my Fuji HS10 (which suffers from the problem of EVF blacking out during every shot)... but on my DSLR as well!

[Waddo Wabbit]

This is exactly what I thought when I first read about it. The fact that it doesn't have any magnification allows you to track the moving object whilst your camera is zoomed in. It also solves the problem of the EVF black outs and the slight lag you get using EVFs. From what I've read (on a FZ150 forum) you set your focal length, align the reticule of the RDS with the focus point of the camera, take some sample shots and then you're ready to go. Setting your AF area to the largest setting also helps focus on small objects. No doubt it'll take time to get the hang of it but from what I've read they're very useful. At only £30 I think I'll be giving it a try this summer.

[Hatstand]

Saw some interesting threads on this subject on dpreview forums eg.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readf ... 410&page=1

And thought "sounds cool, I fancy having a go"... and I ordered this:
http://gadget.brando.com/wildlife-photo ... 3d003.html

27 quid (including delivery from the US).
If it's naff, it's cheap enough that I don't care.
If it's useful, it's "bloody big bargs init mate?!"

Oh, and to dispel what appears to be a common misconception:
These things do NOT shine lasers at aircraft! (or at anything else!)

[Waddo Wabbit]

It didn't take you long

That's the one I found. I don't think they're available in the UK.

Let me know how you get on.

[RoverDriver]

[boff180]

Red dots still require zeroing and, due to the height difference, just like shooting... Just because the target is in the centre of the dot, doesn't mean he is in the centre of the image if he isn't at the distance you zero at.

[Hatstand]

When you look at the company web site, it might be worth noting the Government Export Restriction warning...

I saw no such warning on that web site... but I am aware of such things, and hoping it's not a problem - on account of no warning given, it not being Night Vision, it's probably not even made in the US in the first place, we are the UK dammit... and most of all, the same device (rebadged) appears to be available in the UK anyway! eg. from amazon.co.uk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pistol-Holograp ... 002ZVMJ9W/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Holo-Metal-Weav ... m_sbs_sg_5

Several other sellers on amazon.co.uk also seem to be selling the same thing but at 4 or 5 times the price, and there are other red dot devices available too eg. the Daisy and Crosman products.

The only problem with those is, none of them comes with the hotshoe camera mounting. If they won't send me the thing from the US, then I'll just buy one here, and figure out the hotshoe camera mounting afterwards.

Red dots still require zeroing and, due to the height difference, just like shooting... Just because the target is in the centre of the dot, doesn't mean he is in the centre of the image if he isn't at the distance you zero at.

Yes, but I plan on doing as suggested by others, and calibrate it pretty much parallel to the lens axis (calibrate on a distant object). This should always place the dot a few inches above where camera is pointing, and on an object as large and distant as an aircraft, a few inches is negligible. And anyway, bear in mind that for photography, it doesn't need to be anywhere near as accurate as for guns. Well that's the theory. Have to see how it all works in practice.

By the way, I like that adding the red dot does not obstruct the regular viewfinder - for close/static stuff I will still use that.

[Hatstand]

On the American Amazon site, those same red dot sights are shown with the warning "We are not able to ship this item to your default shipping address". Bah. So I'm following up on my gadget.brando order, and guessing it'll have to be cancelled.

In which case... I can get the sight from Amazon UK instead... but I'll need a camera mounting. I've emailed Photosolve to ask if their mounting (http://www.photosolve.com/main/product/ ... index.html) is subject to any export restrictions, and can they ship to the UK. If that's no go too, then it's a nuisance, but I'm confident I can make something suitable myself.

However, buying multiple separate components makes it rather more pricey than what our American cousins enjoy :-P

[Waddo Wabbit]

As you say if it is a problem you could just buy the mount separate. Gadget Brando sell the hot shoe mount of its own.
http://gadget.brando.com/hot-shoe-slidi ... 3d003.html

The sight/mount combination is also available from Hong Kong.

I believe they all use a standard size rail

[Hatstand]

Gadget Brando sell the hot shoe mount of its own.
http://gadget.brando.com/hot-shoe-slidi ... 3d003.html

Aha, thanks I hadn't spotted that. It's cheaper than the Photosolve mounting too. Wonder which is better.
I like that Photosolve post plenty of pictures and information - as if they've actually used the thing.

Just have to wait and see what the situation is with my gadget.brando order, and go from there.

[Hatstand]

gadget.brando replied to say that:
a) they have shipped the same item to the UK many times before, and
b) they have already mailed it!

Sure enough, there was an automated dispatch email from them soon after, which included a URL for tracking delivery.
This URL is for a delivery service based in Hong Kong! Which may explain the lack of US export restrictions (they are not exporting from the US!)

I bet they're all made in China anyway, no matter what brands they are, or what country you buy them in :-D

[tankbuster]

I had one which I tried for birding but I ditched it. It was much better to get used to your camera and everything becomes easier. Aircraft are much easier than birds and with a bit of practice following an aircraft through a viewfinder even when zoomed is not particularly difficult. I would think a red dot site is a complete waste of money.
Your FZ150 and its EVF hasn't quite the responsiveness of a DSLR but once you get a bit of parctice you'll wonder why you asked the question.

[Hatstand]

I had one which I tried for birding but I ditched it. It was much better to get used to your camera and everything becomes easier. Aircraft are much easier than birds and with a bit of practice following an aircraft through a viewfinder even when zoomed is not particularly difficult. I would think a red dot site is a complete waste of money.
Your FZ150 and its EVF hasn't quite the responsiveness of a DSLR but once you get a bit of parctice you'll wonder why you asked the question.

I'd agree in the case of my DSLR, and its modest 250mm lens... after a little practice I can very easily get a plane into the viewfinder and follow it.

But I have to disagree when it comes to my Fuji HS10. At the longer focal lengths (up to 720mm) and using its bog standard EVF, it is no easy task finding and tracking a fast moving plane, regardless of practice. And if it's not already roughly in focus, there's almost no chance - the HS10 doesn't win any prizes for AF speed. I suspect I'd have similar problems even on a DSLR, if I had a bigger lens. (Mind you, I am no spring chicken, that might have something to do with it too).

And unfortunately, no amount of practice stops the EVF and rear screen blacking out after every shot on the Fuji HS10! This can last for a second or more (or many seconds when starting a movie recording)... during which time you have no idea what the camera is pointing at, and it can be extremely difficult to track anything at all.

While I'm sure red dot sights are not for everyone, I remain hopeful that it will help. And it's cheap enough that I'm willing to give it a try - no great loss if it's rubbish.

By the way, one other thing I'm hoping for, is to be able to enjoy airshows more "with my own eyes" and with a nearly full field of view... while still getting some nice photos. ie. Less time peering through a restrictive viewfinder.

[tankbuster]

I had one which I tried for birding but I ditched it. It was much better to get used to your camera and everything becomes easier. Aircraft are much easier than birds and with a bit of practice following an aircraft through a viewfinder even when zoomed is not particularly difficult. I would think a red dot site is a complete waste of money.
Your FZ150 and its EVF hasn't quite the responsiveness of a DSLR but once you get a bit of parctice you'll wonder why you asked the question.

I'd agree in the case of my DSLR, and its modest 250mm lens... after a little practice I can very easily get a plane into the viewfinder and follow it.

But I have to disagree when it comes to my Fuji HS10. At the longer focal lengths (up to 720mm) and using its bog standard EVF, it is no easy task finding and tracking a fast moving plane, regardless of practice. And if it's not already roughly in focus, there's almost no chance - the HS10 doesn't win any prizes for AF speed. I suspect I'd have similar problems even on a DSLR, if I had a bigger lens. (Mind you, I am no spring chicken, that might have something to do with it too).

And unfortunately, no amount of practice stops the EVF and rear screen blacking out after every shot on the Fuji HS10! This can last for a second or more (or many seconds when starting a movie recording)... during which time you have no idea what the camera is pointing at, and it can be extremely difficult to track anything at all.

While I'm sure red dot sights are not for everyone, I remain hopeful that it will help. And it's cheap enough that I'm willing to give it a try - no great loss if it's rubbish.

By the way, one other thing I'm hoping for, is to be able to enjoy airshows more "with my own eyes" and with a nearly full field of view... while still getting some nice photos. ie. Less time peering through a restrictive viewfinder.

I can only talk from experience having used two FZ50s for a couple of years. I never found the EVF/blackout issues to be a significant problem once I had mastered the camera. Don’t get me wrong it isn’t as good as a DSLR but the difficulty level is only slightly higher. I have examples of 500 knot sequence 5 or 6 shots in a row taken with the FZ50. My blackout was never anywhere approaching one second and I would assume the more modern FZ150 would be as good or better. My one problem was that sometimes the last shot in sequence would have the subject copped in half and I would lose the front end but I can live with 80% success rate.

The other big drawback of an RDS is steadiness. Using the viewfinder makes it much easier to hold the camera in an optimum position for following fast moving objects.

[Hatstand]

The other big drawback of an RDS is steadiness. Using the viewfinder makes it much easier to hold the camera in an optimum position for following fast moving objects.

You might be right, but I'm not convinced that will be true (in my case, I mean).

Panning smoothly is something I continue to stuggle with, despite practice. Slow moving planes no problem - but eg. when following a fast jet, with a long focal length... I find it difficult to move my head, arms and torso all together quickly and smoothly enough as a unit. I can keep it roughly centred in the viewfinder, but it's not smooth and the plane is constantly moving around in the frame.

I expect to use the red dot using a very similar position to using an SLR anyway - just not touching my face. The increased field of view might actually help me move more smoothly! And maybe taking my head out of the head/arm/torso "unit" will help too. I dunno. I won't know unless I try. I'm also thinking of events like Duxford, where I sit in the FoD enclosure - no standing allowed, movement can be restricted. A usable solution for camera-off-face could be very advantageous there.

In any case - Using a red dot doesn't necessarily prevent you holding the camera to your face. It also doesn't stop you using the regular viewfinder when you want to.

[Waddo Wabbit]

I agree with Hatstand, I've tried panning with my Canon S5IS (400mm) and struggled to keep up with the planes. The slightest movement in the wrong direction and I'm having to lower my camera and start again. This will be even harder when I get my Panasonic FZ150+TC (900mm)

I think both approaches would need a fair bit of practice but from what I've read on other forums, I'd get a higher success rate with the RDS.... I'm often reading comments such as "these shots would not have been possible without my RDS"
Here's some BIF samples taken with a FZ150+RDS (sorry no plane shots)
https://picasaweb.google.com/irismarsh/RedDotTest2#slideshow/5713315036594987266

If I can get these kind of results from this years airshows I'll be happy

[RoverDriver]

.

[Hatstand]

Update... The gadget.brando RDS arrived from Hong Kong. They helpfully marked it as "gift", and with an even more piddly value than its actual piddly value, on the customs declaration. Gave it a quick go, and it works remarkably well when using long focal lengths and targeting small, distant objects. I can see myself getting used to this, it may even become an indispensable accessory. But I need to give it some serious use (and try it at an airshow) before final judgement.

The gadget.brando device is not without its issues though. You get what you pay for, and this was CHEAP. Quality-control issues, you have to set the alignment every time you put it on the camera, and it is very easy to knock it out of alignment during use:

1. The RDS device itself was not put together properly, the up-down/left-right adjustments (via allen key) did nothing at all. Maybe I was unlucky. I dismantled the whole thing and put it back together again (properly this time!). Now it adjusts correctly.

2. The RDS is mounted securely to a rail. And the rail is mounted to the hotshoe adapter... BADLY. It's simply a poor design. The rail sits on just HALF of the top of the hotshoe adapter, basically held by a single screw (not even a pan-head screw). A second screw butts against the end of the rail in some sort of attempt to stop it swivelling freely, and I guess to help keep it fixed and reduce up/down motion. As you can imagine, the slightest bump will put the thing out of alignment.



I'm thinking I can fix this by putting a short length of metal rod in hole A, drilling a shallow hole in the underside on the rail to accept the rod, and then screwing down the rail with a pan-head screw in hole B. That should provice a more stable and secure mounting, and prevent any side-to-side or up/down movement that would affect alignment.

3. The Hotshoe adapter does not fit tightly enough into the hotshoe. Even with the locking thumbscrew tightened, once again the slightest knock puts the thing out of left/right alignment as the adapter shifts within the hotshoe. Haven't quite decided how to fix that. I'm thinking I need to build up the edges of the adapter so it fits snugly... easy enough, a bit of gaffa tape would do that . But I want it to be strong and durable so that alignment survives taking the RDS off and putting it back on. Gaffa tape not suitable then. Hmmm. Maybe metal shims either side of the centre column.

It might be easier to just go for the Photosolve Xtend-a-sight mount instead. Apparently, they make those slightly oversized, and you have to file it down to the exact size of your particular hotshoe. Unfortunately, I don't know of any other options for mounting a RDS to a camera hotshoe.

To summarise, I am pleased with the RDS device itself (after re-assembling it). It is certainly not the best available, but it is very usable and I am happy with it for the price. It has a choice of 4 reticles, they can be red or green, and you can choose from 3 levels of intensity. (The green doesn't really work for me, it gives a kind of blur or "double" image of the reticle. Red seems OK though, and gives a cleanly-defined reticle).

All the serious problems are with the mountings. I think I can make it keep its alignment reliably, but such DIY measures are not for the faint-of-heart. I think I'll order the photosolve xtend-a-sight, see what that's like before I bother fixing the shortcomings of the gadget.brando mounting.

[Waddo Wabbit]

Hi Hatstand, thanks for the update. After reading this I'm considering putting together my own mount using a tripod screws and one of these rails. Not sure if the holes would need widening though...

http://ant-supplies.co.uk/Pages/HandguardRails.aspx#weaverrailbolton

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-1-4-20-Tripod-Screw-to-Flash-HotShoe-Mount-Adapter-/150641038060?pt=UK_Tripods_Monopods&hash=item2312e7d2ec

Do you think this would help? Worth a try before going down the Xtend-a-sight route ?

[Hatstand]

Hi Waddo...

that rail system looks OK, but then - the rails seem to be the easy bit.
There's plenty of choice in the UK for red dot sights to put on them too.

The tricky bit is between the hotshoe and the rail. Any off the shelf hotshoe mount/adapter could suffer from similar problems to those I've already found. ie. mount not fitting tightly enough into the shoe, and/or weak joint between rail and mount.

It seems hotshoes are not made to very exacting standards :-/ It helps to push (and hold) the mount firmly into the shoe before locking it down, so that the end of the mount... against the end of the shoe... minimises side-to-side movement (the locking nut minimises up-down movement). However, the rail provides quite a bit of leverage so that any bumps can still easily cause movement of the mount within the shoe, and mess up your alignment. Screwing the thing down ever tighter just feels wrong, and may damage the camera - unless you intend to leave it permanently in place. It really needs a nice tight fit, and I don't think you can know how tight a given combination of mount and show will be, until you try it :-/

The Xtend-a-sight specifically addresses this by being slightly oversized, and you then have to file it down 'til it exactly fits a particular hotshoe.

One good thing about the brando mount, the central column has flat sides, so I could use thin, narrow (metal) shims to make a rigid connection. The shims would be flush with the edges of the hotshoe overlap, and low enough that they don't obstruct the thumbwheel locking nut:


As for fixing the rails to the mount... The hotshoe mount you posted, only offers a single fixing point - you'd need "something" to make sure the rail can't easily pivot on that point - something strong, given that the rail provides leverage that may defeat a simple nut-and-bolt, even from a small knock or bump. It only takes a small amount of movement to throw the rail right off alignment.

If the mount and rail begin life as separate, non-integrated parts - I think the ideal is to have two fixing points, to prevent side-to-side movement altogether.

Maybe I'm just overly fussy. If you're prepared to re-align every time you mount it, and take care not to knock/bump/touch the sight for the duration of your photoshoot... I guess pretty much anything half-decent would do.

Anyway, I was encouraged enough with the principal of red dot sights from my experiments so far - that I've ordered the Xtend-a-sight Plus to experiment further. My opinion of it when I get my hands on it might be helpful for you - I'll be sure to post about it. However, I went for cheapo shipping, and delivery estimate is not until 27th O_o

You could cast around and see if you can find opinions on the Plus model - I didn't find much myself, only years-old comments on the original Xtend-a-sight model.

[Waddo Wabbit]

I wouldn't call that being fussy. I'd expect it take the odd little bump now and then without it becoming misaligned

My finances have just taken a bit of a hit so it looks like my new camera/RDS is on hold for a while

Let me know how you get on

[Hatstand]

The Xtend-a-sight Plus arrived today, well ahead of delivery estimate.

As stated on the website, its width is oversized - it would definitely not fit into the hotshoe out of the box.

I put a piece of wet-and-dry sandpaper (keep it wet!) on a flat surface, and carefully ground one of the side edges a little at a time until it fitted easily, but very snugly. I advise grinding the edge against the sandpaper, not the other way around... and across the edge, not along it. (Rubbing the sandpaper against the edge will not give you a straight result... and if you rub the piece against the sandpaper along the edge, you're likely to make it curved instead of straight).

I actually had to grind the thumbwheel down a bit too. It's quite thick, and there wasn't enough travel to raise it above the top of the hotshoe (it would hit the rail before it was high enough). So it was an obstruction, when trying to put the mount into the hotshoe. I couldn't raise the height of the rail to give it more travel eg. by putting a thin washer on top of the post before sitting the rail on it - because then the locking screw for the rail would have met the post too near the top, and wouldn't have locked securely.

So I just made the thumbwheel a little thinner - by about 1mm. Actually, I think 0.5mm probably would have been enough. Note that if you do this too, you should avoid taking off too much of the thick plastic shell, that you start cutting into the aluminium core of the thumbwheel (that could damage the threads, or reduce the amount and strength of the threads).

In use, it's very good, very stable. Doesn't need excessive tightening on the thumbwheel locking nut. I found no up-down movement, but there was a tiny, tiny (I mean REALLY tiny!) amount of side-to-side movement possible - either due to my sanding being slightly off, or possibly the piece wasn't perfectly square to start with, or possibly the hotshoe isn't perfectly square. The amount of movement is very, very small - but it's enough to put a target slightly off the centre of the frame, at 600mm focal length. This is regardless of following the advice of "keep pushing it firmly into the hotshoe, right to the back, while tightening the locking nut". Thankfully though - it's very consistent. Each time I mount it, I just give it a nudge to the right... and it's aligned exactly as it was the last time I mounted it, and nudged it to the right. If it takes a bump, nudge it to the right again, and it's back in alignment.

It's more compact than the gadget.brando mounting - the height is much less, the red dot sight is much lower on the camera, and there isn't a sizable length of rail sticking out past the end of the sight. It looks less Heath Robinson and more like a "proper" piece of kit. Its hotshoe adapter and thumbwheel locking nut are aluminium, where the equivelent parts on the gadget.brando mount are plastic (I'm thinking stripped threads are a much more distinct possibility with the plastic, especially since it needs a lot more tightening than the Xtend-a-sight).

I rather think the old version of Xtend-a-sight must have been much easier to fit - a split mounting with an allen key screw to expand the foot into the hotshoe. But that makes it very difficult to add a locking thumbwheel to eliminate up-down movement, so I can see why they changed it.

So, my personal view is: Xtend-a-sight is the mounting to go for, plus whatever red dot sight you fancy. RDS's are readily available in the UK, with plenty of models to choose from - my advice is to pick one with variable LED intensity that goes up to "VERY bright", so you don't have any problems seeing the dot in bright sunny conditions, but you can tone it down when conditions are overcast.

It's pricier than the gadget.brando, but it's worth the extra in my opinion. (The gadget.brando thing is 27 quid including delivery. A near-identical red-dot sight mail-ordered within the UK is about 30 quid, plus another 22 quid for the Xtend-a-sight and delivery: about 52 quid total).

Having to grind one edge of the mounting is slightly inconvenient, but it results in a perfect fit for your camera. And it's easier than modifying the gadget.brando item to prevent the rail pivoting on top of the mount (fairly precise drilling required for that)... and even then the gadget.brando mount will still go out of alignment too easily, because it won't fit your hotshoe snugly (very difficult to prevent it pivoting within the hotshoe).

By the way, I found that the technique of making a kind of "tension tripod" out of your two arms holding the camera, plus the camera strap pulled taught against the back of your neck... works very well when using a red dot sight. It's a bit like the old "bungee between foot and camera" technique. With a bare minimum of practice, you can pan very quickly and smoothly. (I should point out, that wasn't my idea, I saw it on the Interwebz!). It doesn't take much tension on the camera strap, so no need to overdo it and wear out your arms/neck. Might want to wear a shirt with a collar when doing this though - if the strap rubs against your bare neck, it might get uncomfortable after a full day at an airshow.

[Hatstand]

The other big drawback of an RDS is steadiness. Using the viewfinder makes it much easier to hold the camera in an optimum position for following fast moving objects.

You might be right, but I'm not convinced that will be true (in my case, I mean).

Panning smoothly is something I continue to stuggle with, despite practice. Slow moving planes no problem - but eg. when following a fast jet, with a long focal length... I find it difficult to move my head, arms and torso all together quickly and smoothly enough as a unit. I can keep it roughly centred in the viewfinder, but it's not smooth and the plane is constantly moving around in the frame.

I expect to use the red dot using a very similar position to using an SLR anyway - just not touching my face. The increased field of view might actually help me move more smoothly! And maybe taking my head out of the head/arm/torso "unit" will help too. I dunno. I won't know unless I try. I'm also thinking of events like Duxford, where I sit in the FoD enclosure - no standing allowed, movement can be restricted. A usable solution for camera-off-face could be very advantageous there.

In any case - Using a red dot doesn't necessarily prevent you holding the camera to your face. It also doesn't stop you using the regular viewfinder when you want to.

A wee update. Bear in mind this is a very personal thing, and it won't be the same for everybody...

...But after Flying Legends, I can now report that I actually found panning easier with the red dot sight.

Holding a DSLR against your face you need to move head, arms, torso and camera in concert... and if you do the "elbows locked to sides" thing, you also need to hold your breath while panning. As I said, I have always struggled with this. And that's with lenses that weren't even very big or heavy!

With the red dot sight, I stabilise the camera by making a "tripod" out of my two arms, and the neck strap pulled taut against the back of my neck. This takes my head and breathing out of the equation, and I find it works better for me. Seems at least as stable as when I used a DSLR pressed against my face, and with more practice maybe it will become even more so. Note that I'm doing all this with a superzoom camera, which is small and light - it might be a very different story if I tried this with a DSLR and a big lens on it. Or it might not. I dunno.

For panning, I find keeping the dot on a specific part of the plane to be much easier and more accurate... than trying to use my judgement as to whether I'm keeping some part of the plane centred in a viewfinder. Panning is still not easy, and still takes practice - but with the RDS I feel much more relaxed and "in control".

The extended field of view when using a red dot sight seems to help with panning, and also makes it much easier to anticipate when two planes are going to cross over, or when a plane is going to fly across a "nice" bit of background eg. a gap in clouds, nice cloud formation, scenery... or the moon, I guess. Easier to avoid clobbering the person standing next to you with your lens too. And it's nice to take photos while watching the show with pretty much your normal field of view, and both eyes... instead of looking at everything through a viewfinder.