Typhoon, why can't I get enthusiastic?

[TonyO]

I have high hopes for the Tiffie demo this year, Scott is a veteran at the demo now so I am sure it has a little more panache and power, but I have no doubt its the powers that be which limit what Scott and his predecessors can do with the jet.

More generally, I think there are some flaws in the way the RAF conducts and/or organises its display acts. Families days routinely somehow manage to get a higher priority than some big (large crowd) airshows and then they consistantly fail to send aircraft to foreign shows where we we really should be flying the flag. Gilze-Rijen in 2005 got the Tornado F3, Harrier GR7, BBMF, C-130J, now they'd be lucky if they got a King Air or a Hawk. Perhaps the problem is that the teams who decide on airshow provision aren't actually involved in the development or organisational work that goes into UK airshows. The rumour is that the Russian Knights going to Farnborough because the Red Arrows are going to Moscow? If its true, why Farnborough and not one of the RAF shows, some big questions there if that rumour is correct.

But if a country like France can devote two Rafales to airshow flying each year and routinely send them to fly the flag then we should be able to do the same and somewhat comfortably. On the other hand, you could argue that the RAF has too many airshow acts, when actually most people only really want to see the Tornado, Typhoon, Red Arrows and BBMF, maybe could we comfortably do away with the Hawk, King Air, Tucano and Tutor displays, and that would free up money to have the more 'interesting, exciting' acts available for more than just weekend flying etc.

[Abingdonman]

Opinions are strange,but that goes for everything I suppose,I was wondering recently whether I was at the same show as the others,but for me the Hawk was a cracking little display at Abingdon recently (and I've seen the solo Hawk a few times) never saw much mention of it anywhere,and as for the Spitfire,dont recall a single pic posted from Abingdon...bad light I suppose!

[LN Strike Eagle]

On the other hand, you could argue that the RAF has too many airshow acts, when actually most people only really want to see the Tornado, Typhoon, Red Arrows and BBMF, maybe could we comfortably do away with the Hawk, King Air, Tucano and Tutor displays, and that would free up money to have the more 'interesting, exciting' acts available for more than just weekend flying etc.

Agreed.

If we cast our minds back to the airshows of our childhoods, which were the aircraft got us "hooked" and left a lasting impression? Bulldog and Jet Provost, or Phantom, Buccaneer, Harrier, Vulcan etc?

[LN Strike Eagle]

I don't think we have any RAF who post on here.

Incorrect.

[RJC1878]

On the other hand, you could argue that the RAF has too many airshow acts, when actually most people only really want to see the Tornado, Typhoon, Red Arrows and BBMF, maybe could we comfortably do away with the Hawk, King Air, Tucano and Tutor displays, and that would free up money to have the more 'interesting, exciting' acts available for more than just weekend flying etc.

Tutor and King Air? Yes. But I would not want to see the loss of either the Hawk or Tucano.

[Wes_Howes]

I have to agree with Tony, whilst it was impressive seeing the King Air thrown around the skies for the first time, it's not something I worry about missing nowadays. The Tutor and Tucano too. The Hawk would be more impressive if it wasn't displaying 20 miles down the road but I guess the restrictions (which seem to me to have become tighter of recent years) have a lot to do with this.

The other side of the coin though is the display pilot is taking up his own free time to display so we have to be thankful that he is willing to sacrifice time with his family to put on a show for us.

[DanO1978]

You speak a lot of sense there Tony

I think it's obvious that RAF demos are VERY restricted by the top brass in terms of what is allowed and possible - but let's not forget the RAF have in recent years produced some pretty impressive displays, namely the early incarnation of Team Merlin, the Chinook, and in my view the King Air, which in airshow terms punches well above it's weight.

Do we think the Typhoon demo (I've not seen 2012's so can't comment on that) has been significantly toned down since the near-miss at Fairford?

[TonyO]

On the third hand...(is that possible?)

The RAF try and support too many airshows, or there are too many airshows in the UK. Strikes me that there is seemingly very little variety at these shows nowadays, same acts, same trade stalls, same UKARers

I went to Abingdon in May, and most airshows that follow will be virtual carbon copies. (This is not a dig at Abbo, a show which I have a healthy appreiciation for given its early in the year slot)

[LN Strike Eagle]

The RAF try and support too many airshows, or there are too many airshows in the UK. Strikes me that there is seemingly very little variety at these shows nowadays, same acts, same trade stalls, same UKARers

I went to Abingdon in May, and most airshows that follow will be virtual carbon copies.

A discussion I seem to recall we've had on the forum in recent years.

I'm not convinced we have too many, especially with the loss of Kemble and Biggin Hill, but a bit more imagination and variety in the bookings would be nice. Good example would be the Huey; it's been in the UK since about 2004 and I've not laid eyes on it once. Looking at their website they have three bookings for 2012 at the Kirkbride Fly In, Southport FunFest and East Fortune!

[DanO1978]

On the third hand...(is that possible?)

The RAF try and support too many airshows, or there are too many airshows in the UK. Strikes me that there is seemingly very little variety at these shows nowadays, same acts, same trade stalls, same UKARers

I went to Abingdon in May, and most airshows that follow will be virtual carbon copies.

That's a whole new thread! I've been banging on for years about the repetitive nature of too many medium-sized displays. It may be unfair to single it out, but Abingdon this year was a case in point. The RAF stuff booked en masse (presumably for cost) with one or two corporate-sponsored civilian items and teams, then one or two privately owned gems for the purist - usually a Hangar 11 warbird, and perhaps the Vacher Hurricane, for example. There IS the variety out there, but one imagines it costs too much to book, hence the flat-packed off-the-shelf lineups we see at an awful lot of shows nowadays.

But, as I say, that's a whole different thread and debate!

[timuss]

With some of the foreign Typhoon demo's having a smoke system, i wonder why that's something the RAF may not have considered??? And also flares have any RAF demo's used flares???

[RJC1878]

I've been banging on for years about the repetitive nature of too many medium-sized displays. It may be unfair to single it out, but Abingdon this year was a case in point. The RAF stuff booked en masse (presumably for cost) with one or two corporate-sponsored civilian items and teams, then one or two privately owned gems for the purist - usually a Hangar 11 warbird, and perhaps the Vacher Hurricane, for example. There IS the variety out there, but one imagines it costs too much to book, hence the flat-packed off-the-shelf lineups we see at an awful lot of shows nowadays.

Hear, hear.

[TonyO]

You speak a lot of sense there Tony

I think it's obvious that RAF demos are VERY restricted by the top brass in terms of what is allowed and possible - but let's not forget the RAF have in recent years produced some pretty impressive displays, namely the early incarnation of Team Merlin, the Chinook, and in my view the King Air, which in airshow terms punches well above it's weight.

Dan: I forgot about the Merlin and the Chinook.

Perhaps the RAF need to limit the number of acts each year to say three or four - not including the BBMF and the Reds - and then put the rest in abeyance and bring them back every other year. I would especially love to see the C-130J demo return, but I doubt I will. Aircraft that are shortly to retire should also get an airing, a la Canberra. A VC-10 demo cannot be out of the question?

[st24]

Do we think the Typhoon demo (I've not seen 2012's so can't comment on that) has been significantly toned down since the near-miss at Fairford?

No 'cos it's virtually the same routine... the only additions I have noted since 2005 have been some negative g manouveres - an outside push has been included and this year there is a negative bunt off the climb from the slow pass. It should be noted that no other RAF combat display jet has put negative g into their display, so it's something "new" as far as the RAF are concerned....

[UK Airshow Review]

I would like to know about RAF personnel, Rank, Sqn etc that post on here?

Are you for real?

[UNC]

I don't think that displaying the Typhoon at an airshow is high on the priorty list for the RAF. Training pilots to combat readiness and developing the aircraft capabilities may be of more importance. Comments on intake design, front end lift from the foreplanes and paint schemes have all come under fire on this thread, which has produced some interesting reading and debate. It's all irrelaevant, as these attributes of Typhoon were'nt contrived over a brew and a biscuit. As mentioned previously, its a warplane. I think the folk responsible for a display routine look at the capabilities of the aircraft and find a series of manouvres that demonstrates them in a fluid routine, not some had hoc thrown together display. Maybe the general public don't look too close into the execution of a Derry turn or cuban eight, but just look at it as an exciting display routine. If Typhoon gets a kicking from Rafale in the airshow arena then thats great, because that aspect doesn't matter. All aircaft have strengths and weaknesses, some are good at some things and average at others. Typhoon should'nt be judged on its airshow performances, its not what the pilot or the aircraft are here for. Maybe if we had the enthusiasm of the American Demonstration teams, things may be different, but we are just not like that anymore.

[LN Strike Eagle]

BWT rule 6, do you think that the younger children on here don't know what the word Funker means in strike eagles sig

It's a quote from the Simpsons, which is shown at 6pm each night for the younger children to watch well before bed time.

As for your other point, you were sent a PM about 15 minutes a go.

[cazwhitehouse]

But if a country like France can devote two Rafales to airshow flying each year and routinely send them to fly the flag then we should be able to do the same and somewhat comfortably. On the other hand, you could argue that the RAF has too many airshow acts, when actually most people only really want to see the Tornado, Typhoon, Red Arrows and BBMF, maybe could we comfortably do away with the Hawk, King Air, Tucano and Tutor displays, and that would free up money to have the more 'interesting, exciting' acts available for more than just weekend flying etc.

Well said...totally agree!!

[Jooles707]

I agree with UNC. This aircraft has had little time to prove itself on the frontline. But in the few situations where it has been called upon to do it's primary roll it has a high sucsess rate. To have the Priviledge of a fly past of any aircraft prove that the owners have taken time out to try and please the general public. Also lets not forget the Military aviators DON'T get overtime or extra pay on top of the monthly pay packet.

[Kieran]

Kieran's ideology on RAF acts and shows:

-Scrap the Tutor, Tucano and King Air demo appearances by half. Alternate between the three of them so all 3 can't be seen at the same show. So, for example, Tutor appears at Southend, Tucano appears at Shoreham, King Air appears at Bournemouth. However, only Waddington, Cosford and Leuchars get all three appearing at their shows because they are the RAF's premier airshows. I wouldn't have the three appear at RIAT or Farnborough.

-Keep the Hawk T1A (and soon to be Hawk T2 demo) as it is.

-Display the Chinook, Merlin and Sea King displays only at the RAF's premier airshows.

-Limit the amount of shows the Typhoon gets to in the United Kingdom. I'd have it display at RIAT, Waddington, Cosford, Leuchars and the seaside events. That then leaves budget and room for the Royal Air Force to take their Typhoon demo to a variety of places across Europe. The Belgiums, French, Dutch and other European countries have been long supporters of our airshows, why don't we give them something back in return and to say thanks?

-Red Arrows and BBMF to remain as they are.

-Resurrect the RAF Falcons parachute team. One of the best parachute teams has seen humiliation after humiliation in the past couple of years. It's time to give them back their smoke systems (unless they already have them back?), make the team strong again by having 10/12 parachutists and give them a damn Herc or JHC Helo to jump out of!

-Scrap the Tornado GR4 Role Demo. Why? It's phenomenal don't get me wrong, but in order to show the true power of one of the world's leading air forces, it needs to be given that bigger step. Yes, I am hinting at a possible return of the RAF Role Demonstration, but make it bigger. Imagine Typhoons dogfighting against Hawks, then once they're done get the GR4s in and do a couple of bombing/strafing runs. As all this is going on, a Hercules/C-17 and a healthy spread of helicopters are getting close air support to the troops on the ground. However, to save costs, I'd only have this at Waddington and RIAT. I would imagine the idea of a Role Demonstration would aspire a child/teenager to join the armed forces more so than a training display from a Tutor...

-QRA demonstration. Copy the Austrians! Have a Herc enter the airfield airspace and scramble a pair of Typhoons to intercept it!

Just a couple of thoughts.

Now awaits the obligatory 'we don't have the money' argument...

[DanO1978]

Another post full of sense there, Kieran

Can't argue with any of your points. The issue of the Falcons is well-raised.

[Ryand19]

Kieran's ideology on RAF acts and shows:

-Scrap the Tutor, Tucano and King Air demo appearances by half. Alternate between the three of them so all 3 can't be seen at the same show. So, for example, Tutor appears at Southend, Tucano appears at Shoreham, King Air appears at Bournemouth. However, only Waddington, Cosford and Leuchars get all three appearing at their shows because they are the RAF's premier airshows. I wouldn't have the three appear at RIAT or Farnborough.

-Keep the Hawk T1A (and soon to be Hawk T2 demo) as it is.

-Display the Chinook, Merlin and Sea King displays only at the RAF's premier airshows.

-Limit the amount of shows the Typhoon gets to in the United Kingdom. I'd have it display at RIAT, Waddington, Cosford, Leuchars and the seaside events. That then leaves budget and room for the Royal Air Force to take their Typhoon demo to a variety of places across Europe. The Belgiums, French, Dutch and other European countries have been long supporters of our airshows, why don't we give them something back in return and to say thanks?

-Red Arrows and BBMF to remain as they are.

-Resurrect the RAF Falcons parachute team. One of the best parachute teams has seen humiliation after humiliation in the past couple of years. It's time to give them back their smoke systems (unless they already have them back?), make the team strong again by having 10/12 parachutists and give them a damn Herc or JHC Helo to jump out of!

-Scrap the Tornado GR4 Role Demo. Why? It's phenomenal don't get me wrong, but in order to show the true power of one of the world's leading air forces, it needs to be given that bigger step. Yes, I am hinting at a possible return of the RAF Role Demonstration, but make it bigger. Imagine Typhoons dogfighting against Hawks, then once they're done get the GR4s in and do a couple of bombing/strafing runs. As all this is going on, a Hercules/C-17 and a healthy spread of helicopters are getting close air support to the troops on the ground. However, to save costs, I'd only have this at Waddington and RIAT. I would imagine the idea of a Role Demonstration would aspire a child/teenager to join the armed forces more so than a training display from a Tutor...

-QRA demonstration. Copy the Austrians! Have a Herc enter the airfield airspace and scramble a pair of Typhoons to intercept it!

Just a couple of thoughts.

Now awaits the obligatory 'we don't have the money' argument...

Agree with all of this, although I'd love for the Role Demo to take place at Leuchars also.

[LN Strike Eagle]

Any chance of that in English?

[LN Strike Eagle]

Any chance of that in English?

You understand it plain enough.

I don't. You wouldn't take my word for it and asked for examples, you were given some. You failed to reply to the PM, and the last reply you left in this thread is just jibberish - it makes no sense in response to anything said either in this thread, or the PM I sent you.

I'm not interested either way - this has zero relevance to the rest of this discussion and you're just derailing an interesting thread, so to spare anyone else the headaches, we'll leave it there. If you wish to continue it further, you can reply to the PM, but I'll just delete any other off topic replies in this thread.

[cat7]

Just wondering - does the intensity of the display have a bearing on the 'cost' of performing it ?. By 'cost' I'm thinking of aspects such as airframe fatigue cycles etc as well as fuel etc,

In other words does a more intensive display reduce the life of the airframe in any way or increase the maintenance / inspection frequency etc. If it does could this have a bearing on how the RAF chooses to display the aircraft ?

And before anyone bites, its a genuine question to which I have no idea about the answer so please be gentle