Typhoon, why can't I get enthusiastic?

[Jooles707]

Just wondering - does the intensity of the display have a bearing on the 'cost' of performing it ?. By 'cost' I'm thinking of aspects such as airframe fatigue cycles etc as well as fuel etc,

In other words does a more intensive display reduce the life of the airframe in any way or increase the maintenance / inspection frequency etc. If it does could this have a bearing on how the RAF chooses to display the aircraft ?

And before anyone bites, its a genuine question to which I have no idea about the answer so please be gentle

Even simple flying will fatigue the air frame. The best way to explain this is if you get 2 new cars and drive one on a Grand prix circut Not Fragging it and take the other and drive it on a rally circut and give it more beana than the Heinz factory.

The car being driven crazy will have things go wrong quicker than driving miss daisy at Silverstone.

Hope this explaines it for you?

[cat7]

Thanks it does. I was also wondering if it would affect the way the RAF displays the aircraft or whether they'd display it however they wanted and not concern themselves about the cost

[phreakf4]

Kieran's ideology on RAF acts and shows:

-Scrap the Tutor, Tucano and King Air demo appearances by half. Alternate between the three of them so all 3 can't be seen at the same show. So, for example, Tutor appears at Southend, Tucano appears at Shoreham, King Air appears at Bournemouth. However, only Waddington, Cosford and Leuchars get all three appearing at their shows because they are the RAF's premier airshows. I wouldn't have the three appear at RIAT or Farnborough.

-Keep the Hawk T1A (and soon to be Hawk T2 demo) as it is.

-Display the Chinook, Merlin and Sea King displays only at the RAF's premier airshows.

-Limit the amount of shows the Typhoon gets to in the United Kingdom. I'd have it display at RIAT, Waddington, Cosford, Leuchars and the seaside events. That then leaves budget and room for the Royal Air Force to take their Typhoon demo to a variety of places across Europe. The Belgiums, French, Dutch and other European countries have been long supporters of our airshows, why don't we give them something back in return and to say thanks?

-Red Arrows and BBMF to remain as they are.

-Resurrect the RAF Falcons parachute team. One of the best parachute teams has seen humiliation after humiliation in the past couple of years. It's time to give them back their smoke systems (unless they already have them back?), make the team strong again by having 10/12 parachutists and give them a damn Herc or JHC Helo to jump out of!

-Scrap the Tornado GR4 Role Demo. Why? It's phenomenal don't get me wrong, but in order to show the true power of one of the world's leading air forces, it needs to be given that bigger step. Yes, I am hinting at a possible return of the RAF Role Demonstration, but make it bigger. Imagine Typhoons dogfighting against Hawks, then once they're done get the GR4s in and do a couple of bombing/strafing runs. As all this is going on, a Hercules/C-17 and a healthy spread of helicopters are getting close air support to the troops on the ground. However, to save costs, I'd only have this at Waddington and RIAT. I would imagine the idea of a Role Demonstration would aspire a child/teenager to join the armed forces more so than a training display from a Tutor...

-QRA demonstration. Copy the Austrians! Have a Herc enter the airfield airspace and scramble a pair of Typhoons to intercept it!

Just a couple of thoughts.

Now awaits the obligatory 'we don't have the money' argument...

Typical "enthusiast" post.

What arrogance to assume that the air show organisers should say "Stuff the vast majority of the audience who only attend one or two airshows per year and organise it all to suit the small minority of "enthusiasts" who visit many shows each year". (including me, I plan to attend at least seven, possibly eight if I can manage a visit to Shuttleworth this year)

Why should someone who only attends, say, Farnborough and Old Warden be denied the opportunity to see the Tucano just because a bunch of "enthusiasts" have already seen it at Abingdon or Waddington or, worse, because the "enthusiasts" consider themselves too "cool" or "well informed" to be interested in a well-flown display unless it is by an afterburning jet.

Some enthusiasts really should get over themselves.

[DanO1978]

Which beggars the question, what are you doing on an ENTHUSIAST website?

[Mad Dan]

DanO1978 said:

Which beggars the question, what are you doing on an ENTHUSIAST website?

Shouldn't that be "begs the question" - or does that beggar belief?

Oh bugger.................

[RJC1878]

Kieran's ideology on RAF acts and shows:

-Scrap the Tutor, Tucano and King Air demo appearances by half. Alternate between the three of them so all 3 can't be seen at the same show. So, for example, Tutor appears at Southend, Tucano appears at Shoreham, King Air appears at Bournemouth. However, only Waddington, Cosford and Leuchars get all three appearing at their shows because they are the RAF's premier airshows. I wouldn't have the three appear at RIAT or Farnborough.

-Keep the Hawk T1A (and soon to be Hawk T2 demo) as it is.

-Display the Chinook, Merlin and Sea King displays only at the RAF's premier airshows.

-Limit the amount of shows the Typhoon gets to in the United Kingdom. I'd have it display at RIAT, Waddington, Cosford, Leuchars and the seaside events. That then leaves budget and room for the Royal Air Force to take their Typhoon demo to a variety of places across Europe. The Belgiums, French, Dutch and other European countries have been long supporters of our airshows, why don't we give them something back in return and to say thanks?

-Red Arrows and BBMF to remain as they are.

-Resurrect the RAF Falcons parachute team. One of the best parachute teams has seen humiliation after humiliation in the past couple of years. It's time to give them back their smoke systems (unless they already have them back?), make the team strong again by having 10/12 parachutists and give them a damn Herc or JHC Helo to jump out of!

-Scrap the Tornado GR4 Role Demo. Why? It's phenomenal don't get me wrong, but in order to show the true power of one of the world's leading air forces, it needs to be given that bigger step. Yes, I am hinting at a possible return of the RAF Role Demonstration, but make it bigger. Imagine Typhoons dogfighting against Hawks, then once they're done get the GR4s in and do a couple of bombing/strafing runs. As all this is going on, a Hercules/C-17 and a healthy spread of helicopters are getting close air support to the troops on the ground. However, to save costs, I'd only have this at Waddington and RIAT. I would imagine the idea of a Role Demonstration would aspire a child/teenager to join the armed forces more so than a training display from a Tutor...

-QRA demonstration. Copy the Austrians! Have a Herc enter the airfield airspace and scramble a pair of Typhoons to intercept it!

Just a couple of thoughts.

A fine post, Kieran.

[phreakf4]

Which beggars the question, what are you doing on an ENTHUSIAST website?

Nowhere do I say that being an enthusiast is a bad thing, or that I am not myself an enthusiast (which, if I understand your username correctly, I have been since nearly 30 years before you were born....)

I directed my comments to "some" enthusiasts.

My objection, as I have tried to make clear many times on here and elsewhere, is to the premise that all air shows should be run solely to suit some enthusiasts. Among other factors, to do so would rapidly cause the disappearance of the airshow industry, since the general public would soon become bored by such shows and would first ask "What happened to the wing-walkers" among other things and would soon thereafter vote with their feet, resulting in the income of most airshows drying up almost entirely.

As example, the suggestion in Keiran's post that "Chinook to appear only at Waddington, Cosford and Leuchars". I have personally witnessed the popularity of the Chinook display at many smaller shows, Duxford, Shoreham and Kemble to name three, at at least the last two of which it is very doubtful that any more than a tiny proportion of the audience would attend any of the "RAF premiere air shows"; they simply would not travel that far just to watch an air show. Should they then be denied the chance to see a Chinook displayed simply because they live in the "wrong" part of the UK or because they are not sufficiently "committed" or "enthusiastic" enough to travel over 100 miles to do so?

Yes, I am an enthusiast, but even I would not drive from Noth-East Hampshire (where I live) to Waddington for the show were it not for the lucky fact that my brother lives near Doncaster, which is "only" 50 miles or so from Waddo, or less than I regularly drive to Duxford to attend all four of their "regular" air shows, plus other events throughout the year (the American Air Day for one) and I can stay at his house for a few days. Because Legends and Waddo are on the same weekend this year, and because my 16 year old son (who lives with his mother also near Doncaster) wishes to attend both, I shall be attending both from Doncaster this year, which will involve some 8 to 9 hundred miles of driving over four days (with the concommittent lack of rest) as I am due to arrive at Fairford for RIAT the following Tuesday. I think that thoroughly establishes my right to call myself "an enthusiast".


It is, as I stated, pure arrogance to assume that because one finds seeing a display item several times each year "boring" then no-one else should be permitted to see it either.

[F-86]

As a kid I always looked forward to seeing the Fast Jet displays, I really think the RAF should leave out some of the training aircraft. The Tutor, Tucano and Kingair should only be static displays, no offence to the pilots but people aren't that interested to see them. At Duxford Sunday when the Tutor was displaying I looked at the people around us and hardly anyone was watching, compare that to the Typhoon and F-16 and even the Strike Eagle demo last year which had people up on their feet constantly watching. The recent Role demo's haven't been that great.
I'd rather the RAF show off the frontline stuff, Tornado, Typhoon and Hawk solos along with Chinook, Merlin, Sea King. Also bring back the Herc tac demo plus Red Arrows and BBMF.

Back to the Typhoon display, yes it could be improved but it wasn't that bad and certainly better than not having one at all.

[Concorde216]

I have not seen the Typhoon display this year and the earliest that I am going to see it is at RIAT. I am hoping to go to Yeovilton the weekend before but Typhoon will not be displaying (but we've got the Tucano )

From past years I have enjoyed seeing the Typhoon display. The one thing that always sticks in my mind when I see it display are the reheats and the noise they create. Those reheats showing a pure, bright orange glow which looks great when the back drop is a dark cloud!

The 2010 display was a mixed bag. It seemed a bit gentle/lacklustre. For example, when the aircraft commenced its final climb out, it did not do a low high-speed past and then go vertical, it just finished one manouvre and then started to climb vertically but slowly. I've no doubt it didnt feel like that for the display pilot with the reheat kicked in but from a spectator's point of view, it looked slow. However, having said that, when we talked to the ground crew at Kemble that year, they mentioned that during one of the displays the aircraft had pulled 10g . So even though the display looked gentle, it obviously wasn't for the pilot.

The best displays that I have seen so far were the ones flown by Matt Elliot and Jim Wallis during 2006 and 2007 (feel free to correct me on the years). They were really good and both won trophies at RIAT in both years. However the BAE Systems' Typhoon display at RIAT last year was really good too, especially as it was bombed up!

Anyway, it is a new year, a new display and I will be happy just to see the aircraft .

[UKTopgun]

My feeling is that the RAF have always taken the view that all their display flying should have a foundation of ultra safety, and I think that is not necessarily a bad thing. It feels like they take the minimum safety criteria for any said display and double it of thier own volition. The result is displays which, while perhaps not thrilling seasoned enthusiasts seeing the same routine perhaps 5-10 times a season, are rock solid from a safety angle and very precisely flown.
Hence why the RAF Tiffie will do lots of derry type turns and 'signature' velocity vector rolls, but not the kind of split s/Immelmann type figures typically seen by the BAC Viper. As enthusiasts we need to be careful when we call for the RAF to cut this display there or that one there - not everyone sees these routines many times a year. To these people, they are 'relatively' fresh items. Also remember the primary raison d'etre of the RAF - indeed any force - at a show is education and future recruitment. The need to tell the 'story' is an imperative, hence the displays by Tutors progressing on to Tucanos etc. Not the biggest spectacles in the airshow world, but essential tools to do a job for the RAF. Not everyone at an airshow loves the fast jets, some prefer the gentle pace of the non jet contribution. On this site, most of us are male (not all!) and love the machismo of the heavy metal displays, but we don't represent the whole picture.
So my feeling is that we should appreciate all we can see in this day and age, and not take our world-class show calendar for granted - one day we may not be seeing any of it.

[st24]

Question- Was the Tiffie height limited at Duxford? There wasn't a great deal of vertical stuff going on so just wondered if we saw a flat display? The Belgian F-16 pulled off a full show, hence me thinking that way as with Stanstead traffic, the height restriction seems to go up and down during the programme...

[pbeardmore]

Tucano and Spitfire would make a nice airshow act?

[Vodka]

The Typhoon and a Spitfire did a great display at the last Biggin' show. A take on the US heritage flight.

[pbeardmore]

I always enjoyed that "act" but there was always an issue with managing the vast differences in performance between the two aircraft,

seeing a Tuncano and Spitfire maybe a more subtle but balletic display

[duxfordhawk]

I would lover to see the Typhoon Spitfire duo at some shows again. Also maybe a Tucano and Hawk pairs flypast at some show would be great. However I am aware that any such things take an awful lot of effort to arrange and the military are not there to entertain but to protect us.

[UKTopgun]

Question- Was the Tiffie height limited at Duxford? There wasn't a great deal of vertical stuff going on so just wondered if we saw a flat display? The Belgian F-16 pulled off a full show, hence me thinking that way as with Stanstead traffic, the height restriction seems to go up and down during the programme...

As per all displays if a fast jet wants to enter controlled airspace - for example, a zoom climb at the end of the display, it has to obtain permission from the relevant ATC centre. Examples of this occured at both Southend and DX last weekend, with fast jets requesting altitudes (8K IIRC) and getting 'ceiling' windows of time from ATC. There were no blanket restrictions at DX other than standard controlled airspace restrictions, as far as I am aware.

[Maisie]

I have to agree, It's not a wow plane to me, But as some have said, It's nice to see a Typhoon in the air and we're lucky to even have one displaying.

I think if one was in colours similar to the Belgium F-16 or even camo, then it would be a different story.

[nigelblake]

I don't think the way the Typhoon was flown at Duxford was any less spectacular than the F16 display based on the flying alone, however the lack of SFX i.e. flares, smoke and smart paint-job etc lessens the impact visually!

[F575]

I'm sort of along the same lines as the opening poster; it's a fantastic bit of kit and the display is great to watch, but the actual plane always comes across a bit soulless and lacking charisma to me. To me it's simliar to the new McLaren MP4-12C sportscar - it's very nice to look at, makes a nice noise and goes like the clappers; but it just comes across as more of a machine than something to have an 'emotional' attachment to. Still provides a very nice display and I look forward to seeing it later in the year of course!

Just to briefly go back to those who are uninterested in the Tucano/Tutor displays etc, sometimes it's just nice for a change of pace and something different to a fast jet. Sure they'll never be the headline acts but it's always good to have the contrast with the star items.

[King Cobra]

As a kid I always looked forward to seeing the Fast Jet displays, I really think the RAF should leave out some of the training aircraft. The Tutor, Tucano and Kingair should only be static displays, no offence to the pilots but people aren't that interested to see them. At Duxford Sunday when the Tutor was displaying I looked at the people around us and hardly anyone was watching, compare that to the Typhoon and F-16 and even the Strike Eagle demo last year which had people up on their feet constantly watching. The recent Role demo's haven't been that great.
I'd rather the RAF show off the frontline stuff, Tornado, Typhoon and Hawk solos along with Chinook, Merlin, Sea King. Also bring back the Herc tac demo plus Red Arrows and BBMF.

Back to the Typhoon display, yes it could be improved but it wasn't that bad and certainly better than not having one at all.

What you really mean is that you and people like you are not interested in them. In my experience the general public are interested in a much wider range of aircraft being displayed than many hard core enthusiasts. Also the more gentle aircraft are popular with families containing small children as they are less noisy and thus less frightening to the youngsters.

[krustydave]

I kind of agree with the original poster, i've never been able to muster massive enthusiasm for the typhoon displays. But they are noisy which is a good thing! However bad the displays may or may not be, i'm always thinikng to myself " appreciate this now while i can" because in 20-30 years time when most of todays aircraft are gone, and its all f-35s , and the last of the typhoons and UAVs which will probably rule the roost...and i REALLY cant get enthusiastic about UAVs; then the typhoon might be held in the same manner as tornado F3s were and will seem fantastic, characterful, fast and dynamic in comparisson. Make the most of it is all im suggesting.

[st24]

The Typhoon and a Spitfire did a great display at the last Biggin' show. A take on the US heritage flight.

But the RAF were there way before the US! In 1985 the then state of the art Tornado F2 was paired with a Spit for that season to formally introduce the type and set a new scene of RAF display flying (especially when it was flown with the baby MkIIa Spit). As ever they pulled off a superb sequence that was extremely well received so much so that it was repeated in 1986 with the F3 and then a couple of other times (Farnboro' 88 & during 1990's battle of Britain 50th events IIRC)

The reincarnation of the Typhoon and Spit was pretty much the same sequence as the previous pair but again, went down extremely well. The US heritage flights haven't been going that long but they have expanded them much to their credit. The RAF could do with re-thinking how they display the Tiffie IMO...

[davski]

I've only seen the Typhoon display once and thought it was everything it needed to be, LOUD and FAST!

[Dragon Rapide]

After reading all these shades of opinion, yes, you can pick and choose between displays but because of the 21st century paucity of fast-jet action I'll accept almost any of them and take equal enjoyment from them. Yes, The F16 probably edged it on Sunday but as much because of flares as as anyting else and it just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway. But anything at any show with flames coming out of the back is OK with me!!

[davski]

Yea, what Dragon Rapide said!