Typhoon, why can't I get enthusiastic?

[Trevsy]

Yes, The F16 probably edged it on Sunday........and it just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway.

In a nutshell thats it, isn't it. The Typhoon has has been built up by all of its supporters to be an ultra manouverable, modern design. In fact it doesn't look as manouverable as such a common and now old design, the F-16, which has left many feeling short changed.

[StevenH]

I've only seen the Typhoon display once and thought it was everything it needed to be, LOUD and FAST!

So was the Tornado F3 display, isn't the Typhoon meant to be capable of more than that (something foreign demonstrations have proven it is)?

Yes, The F16 probably edged it on Sunday........and it just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway.

Doesn't say much for supposedly cutting edge technology then does it...

[Dragon Rapide]

Yes, The F16 probably edged it on Sunday........and it just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway.

In a nutshell thats it, isn't it. The Typhoon has has been built up by all of its supporters to be an ultra manouverable, modern design. In fact it doesn't look as manouverable as such a common and now old design, the F-16, which has left many feeling short changed.

How it looks and how it is, are of course two different things. And, although some feel "short-changed" as you put it, albeit an odd phrase to use, I don't and thoroughly enjoy any fast-jet show as indeed I did both on Sunday.

[Trevsy]

I've only seen the Typhoon display once and thought it was everything it needed to be, LOUD and FAST!

So was the Tornado F3 display, isn't the Typhoon meant to be capable of more than that (something foreign demonstrations have proven it is)?

Yes, The F16 probably edged it on Sunday........and it just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway.

Doesn't say much for supposedly cutting edge technology then does it...

Yep to all that.

[King Cobra]

After reading all these shades of opinion, yes, you can pick and choose between displays but because of the 21st century paucity of fast-jet action I'll accept almost any of them and take equal enjoyment from them. Yes, The F16 probably edged it on Sunday but as much because of flares as as anyting else and it just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway. But anything at any show with flames coming out of the back is OK with me!!

Agreed. Reheat is, generally speaking, a good thing.

[stonesfan]

Just how important is 'ultra-manoeuvrability' in a real World engagement of which will be begin as a BVR scenario in any case? As a benchmark, I'd suggest the F15C still ticks virtually every box when it comes to:

On board systems
Serviceability
Range
Ability to get off the ground and to its target at a rate of knots
A degree of manoeuvrability should it find itself in the dogfight situation.

Whilst this is diverging off topic a little, surely the Typhoon has the F15C comprehensively beaten on more or less every aspect? Thats what actually matters when it comes to whether we're going to feel short changed or not.

[Trevsy]

The boast was that this aircraft was super manouverable, so understandably for the public (The F16...... just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway.) when it appears to be out performed by the likes of the F-16 are right to perhaps raise an eyebrow.

In reality I would suspect that manouverability is one of the least important features in an air-to-air fighter today, range, cruise speed, avionics, LO and SA and countermeasures are likely much more important. However that is not the point of this thread.

[Dragon Rapide]

F15 - now that was display and a half at Duxford last year!!!

[stonesfan]

The boast was that this aircraft was super manouverable, so understandably for the public (The F16...... just looks lighter and nimbler, becausae it is, anyway.) when it appears to be out performed by the likes of the F-16 are right to perhaps raise an eyebrow.

In reality I would suspect that manouverability is one of the least important features in an air-to-air fighter today, range, cruise speed, avionics, LO and SA and countermeasures are likely much more important. However that is not the point of this thread.

Promises were made about the aircraft's performance, but can anyone actually recall promises made regarding outright agility? Or was this enhanced agility in comparison to the Tornado F3?

[Hewy]

Whilst this is diverging off topic a little, surely the Typhoon has the F15C comprehensively beaten on more or less every aspect? Thats what actually matters when it comes to whether we're going to feel short changed or not.

Once I began to read this thread my mind harked back to F-15 displays I'd been disappointed with in the past and people assured me that the US would only permit the flight envelope of the aircraft to be demonstrated as opposed to pushed so as to not allow "them" to have a full understanding of the aircraft's capabilities. Maybe our powers that be are approaching the Typhoon demonstrations in the same manner. I always find it's best when pilots grow a pair and approach each display as an individual display and push the aircraft to the limits. To me, the RAF displays of the past have always "gone by the book" with few exceptions, those being late 80's displays of XH558 and the good old Nimrod displays. Noise, blood and thunder and highly uncharacteristic displays by aircraft of such size used to blow my mind and each show seemed to go as well as the crew felt it ought to on the day.

Apart from the Role Demo's and much missed Harrier displays recently RAF displays as a whole have been predictably safe. The Red Arrows for example compared to Frecci Tricholori seem almost pedestrian, but what does draw even the stoney-hearted stalwart airshow protagonist is that very predictability, precision and the efficiency provided by the team actually taking the time to change into multiple formations right in front of you as opposed to exiting stage left in one shape and re-entering stage left a slightly different shape. I digress...

The best Typhoon display was the one when the loop bottomed out just feet from the floor, with the pilot being spanked he insisted he had it all under control. Barnstorming response... like it!.

I must admit to being a fan of the Typhoon displays, purely because in my lifetime the most manoeuvrable type we had to offer was the bloody Chipmunk! Haha! I do think the RAF should fork out on Smokewinders though. They always highlight moves very nicely.

What's most disappointing is the lack of type variation within the RAF's hangar. And within that hangar the lack of availability for display purposes.

There... demons out... I need a lie down.

Hewy.

[st24]

The best Typhoon display was the one when the loop bottomed out just feet from the floor, with the pilot being spanked he insisted he had it all under control. Barnstorming response... like it!.
.

Yeh any display that can end in the loss of an aircraft, crew and airshow is always the best! Can I remind you some of us on here actually saw that display of yours come to fruition at Abingdon 1988. I can recall now the barnstorming reponse by the fire crews as they pulled 2 dead crew members form the burning wreck......

Displays are flown within safety parameters to prevent another Ramstein, and yes even your "blood and thunder" late '80s Vulcan and Nimrod were flown to the same routine. Obviously the display pilot of one Nimrod grew a pair as it thundered into that Canadian sea front taking him and six of his crew with it....

[Russ]

Promises were made about the aircraft's performance, but can anyone actually recall promises made regarding outright agility? Or was this enhanced agility in comparison to the Tornado F3?

Back in the day, it was designed to beat the latest generation of Soviet fighters at the time, which was the MiG-29 and Su-27, in both BVR and dogfight engagements. Obviously the game has changed somewhat since then, but nevertheless it was designed to be a highly agile air defence fighter.

I don't buy "it's not exciting because it's painted grey" excuse either. The grey painted F-15E, EF-18, F/A-18C, F/A-18F, MiG-29 (Hungarian), Rafale and F-16 don't seem to have the same problem.

I genuinely think the problem lies not with the aircraft or pilot, but RAF top brass and their overly sensitive safety restrictions. The Typhoon is one of the safest aircraft the RAF have ever operated and even when a pilot makes a mistake the flight control system is capable of saving the day - as seen during Sqn Ldr Matt Elliott's misjudgement during the rehearsal at RIAT 2005.

[DamienB]

You only have to look at the BAE test pilots chucking the prototypes about at Farnborough (with less weight no doubt, but also far less powerful engines) a few years back to realise the RAF's display routines for the type have - to date - been tame in comparison. I have to admit I thought they'd be wringing the thing's neck in displays by now so I guess it is down to limitations imposed by the scrambled egg wearers.

[foxfour]

OK I'm chipping in kind of late in this thread and to be honest I haven't read it all. Sorry if this has been mentioned already but the very high 'G' manoeuvres that often make for some of the most dynamic displays rack up the fatigue life of the aeroplane at an alarming rate. I suspect some aspects of the display are toned down a bit to preserve the fatigue life of the aircraft. Still well worth watching though and it makes me wonder if you can't get enthusiastic are you in the right hobby!

[Elliethe dragongirl]

I Wanted to say a few things about this, i really like the Rafaele and the Belgian F16 they are both really cool.

The Typhoon display is also really good as it is different to the others the pilot flys neat and precise and as i have been doing some flying things i know inportant that is.
I think its wrong to compare as the Rafaele pilot flys hard and fast, and i think the Typhoon is great to as its neat and organised, and i like that as much as that is the most important thing in flying and shows the pilots skills, instead of the planes skills.
I like them both as they are different and both pilots are skilfull and i like to learn stuff as one day i will be flying and want to learn everything to be good at it.
I think people like the Rafaele as it looks good flying hard and fast but i think pilots would like the Typhoon display as its accurate and neat, it would be fun to fly hard and fast but important to be neat.
If the Typhoon pilot reads this he wont be upset as he knows more about it than anyone and he probably understand what everyone thinks, but he knows what is hardest to fly and what the Typhoon is like against the rafaele.
I like to watch them both and learn 2 things that are different.

I Like to come on here on update day and to see the brilliant photos but i want to hold a yoke one day not a camera its more fun.
I want to fly U2's and they dont do fast turns but they are very special and many pilots who fly fast displays may not be good enough to fly one as you have to be perfect and get things right all the time, and i like the Typhoon display because it is a good flying lesson rather than a crazy display.

[Devon9]

I Wanted to say a few things about this, i really like the Rafaele and the Belgian F16 they are both really cool.

The Typhoon display is also really good as it is different to the others the pilot flys neat and precise and as i have been doing some flying things i know inportant that is.
I think its wrong to compare as the Rafaele pilot flys hard and fast, and i think the Typhoon is great to as its neat and organised, and i like that as much as that is the most important thing in flying and shows the pilots skills, instead of the planes skills.
I like them both as they are different and both pilots are skilfull and i like to learn stuff as one day i will be flying and want to learn everything to be good at it.
I think people like the Rafaele as it looks good flying hard and fast but i think pilots would like the Typhoon display as its accurate and neat, it would be fun to fly hard and fast but important to be neat.
If the Typhoon pilot reads this he wont be upset as he knows more about it than anyone and he probably understand what everyone thinks, but he knows what is hardest to fly and what the Typhoon is like against the rafaele.
I like to watch them both and learn 2 things that are different.

I Like to come on here on update day and to see the brilliant photos but i want to hold a yoke one day not a camera its more fun.
I want to fly U2's and they dont do fast turns but they are very special and many pilots who fly fast displays may not be good enough to fly one as you have to be perfect and get things right all the time, and i like the Typhoon display because it is a good flying lesson rather than a crazy display.

Ellie i live in devon too and watched you on Spotlight, you are a very knowledgable and intelligent little girl who impressed me very much with your knowledge.
And that is a very balanced and mature view of this debate. a good post well done

[Abingdonman]

Both the Typhoon & F16 full displays last Sunday are on Youtube now,I'll be getting my Xfactor chair out soon and do my own personal judging!
I'm sure that the smoke and flares will give the F16 an advantage in a lot of folks eyes though ....

[stonesfan]

I'll give the Typhoon display one thing though, it gives a fantastic example of 'brute power', especially when climbing.

[Hewy]

Yeh any display that can end in the loss of an aircraft, crew and airshow is always the best! Can I remind you some of us on here actually saw that display of yours come to fruition at Abingdon 1988. I can recall now the barnstorming reponse by the fire crews as they pulled 2 dead crew members form the burning wreck......

Displays are flown within safety parameters to prevent another Ramstein, and yes even your "blood and thunder" late '80s Vulcan and Nimrod were flown to the same routine. Obviously the display pilot of one Nimrod grew a pair as it thundered into that Canadian sea front taking him and six of his crew with it....

If you took time to read my wee bit properly I think you'll find my tongue was firmly placed in my cheek regarding the 2005 Typhoon incident and the pilot's backside to floor proximity for as I said, I have no problem with the current Typhoon display.

I find your use of witnessing a crash in order to achieve some sort of merit within your point to be at the very least crass.

I too have witnessed a airshow crashes, namely the Vintage Pair at Mildenhall as a kid in 86 (2 years before Ramstein) and it nearly put me off airshows for good and then the fulcrums at Fairford 93. Neither of which were a result of pilots going too far. The Vintage Pair incident floored me as a year before at Teesside Airshow I had a chance to meet the pilots and a guided tour around the aircraft. That incident occurred when they were seemingly flying by calmly.

I also witnessed the Fulcrum crashes at Fairford. And although the less tragic yet equally scary at the time Fulcrum crash occurred during a more complex move it was still a procedure practised and displayed many times before.

Also less than a year before the horrific incident in Toronto I had the honour of flying twice with the crew of XV239, once to the arctic and back and once around the North Sea oil fields whilst on annual camp at nearby Lossiemouth. The greatest flights of my life, and I have had a few worth telling the grand kids about.

As for that crash, and the Mig crash and every crash since Ramstein yet to come I think you can agree that thankfully the air display community has gone out of its way to increase and maintain overall safety for all involved especially the public. What this has resulted in however is less opportunity to really see aircraft put through their paces properly and displaying to their full potential, apart from as mentioned before test aircraft at the hands of experienced test pilots.

As for XH558, well as you know she's still around like the missing Thunderbird vehicle and in the 80's she was displayed differently often enough, the odd extra touch and go and zoom climb here and another "why not" of a wing-over there.

My point was, and is that there always has been and always will be the chance of a crash at an airshow, it's something we as enthusiasts and they as display pilots are more than aware of and live with and I think safe doesn't necessarily have to mean boring... Ask Anatoly Kvochur, anything he had strapped to him had it's neck wrung and he still walks the earth.

Cheers,

Hewy.

[Snafu352]

Just a comment on the manoeuvrability aspect.
Typhoon is designed for high speed and high altitude agility.
Manoeuvrability of this nature is a extremely important element of "beyond visual range" combat.
It allows an aircraft to potentially position versus an opponent in an advantageous way and perhaps more importantly potentially allows manoeuvers that can defeat incoming air to air missiles once such have been detected. The second is achieved by denying the missile the energy to make a successful intercept. This is one reason why missiles such as Meteor have ramjet propulsion rather than rocket as it enables the missile to retain thrust / energy and thus manouverability towards the end of it's flight. AMRAAM is being developed with a two stage rocket to provide a similar solution.

Curious as to an earlier comment to the effect that Typhoon on paper is more capable than Rafale. How is this conclusion reached?
Does Typhoon have nuclear capability, recce capability, deep strike and cas capability and buddy refuelling alongside a pretty impressive air to air capability which is also generically imbedded when performing all of the previouslly mentioned missions? (Not to mention a naval variant)

Having said that the Rafale did have to curtial it's displays at Le Ferte Alais last weekend as both aircraft (different aircraft Sat / Sun) lost a burner part way through the show! Up to that point they were excellent display's.
I'm looking forward to the Italian Typhoon at Florennes and crossing my fingers that the Rafale puts in a sneaky appearence

[UKTopgun]

Yeh any display that can end in the loss of an aircraft, crew and airshow is always the best! Can I remind you some of us on here actually saw that display of yours come to fruition at Abingdon 1988. I can recall now the barnstorming reponse by the fire crews as they pulled 2 dead crew members form the burning wreck......

Displays are flown within safety parameters to prevent another Ramstein, and yes even your "blood and thunder" late '80s Vulcan and Nimrod were flown to the same routine. Obviously the display pilot of one Nimrod grew a pair as it thundered into that Canadian sea front taking him and six of his crew with it....

If you took time to read my wee bit properly I think you'll find my tongue was firmly placed in my cheek regarding the 2005 Typhoon incident and the pilot's backside to floor proximity for as I said, I have no problem with the current Typhoon display.

I find your use of witnessing a crash in order to achieve some sort of merit within your point to be at the very least crass.

I too have witnessed a airshow crashes, namely the Vintage Pair at Mildenhall as a kid in 86 (2 years before Ramstein) and it nearly put me off airshows for good and then the fulcrums at Fairford 93. Neither of which were a result of pilots going too far. The Vintage Pair incident floored me as a year before at Teesside Airshow I had a chance to meet the pilots and a guided tour around the aircraft. That incident occurred when they were seemingly flying by calmly.

I also witnessed the Fulcrum crashes at Fairford. And although the less tragic yet equally scary at the time Fulcrum crash occurred during a more complex move it was still a procedure practised and displayed many times before.

Also less than a year before the horrific incident in Toronto I had the honour of flying twice with the crew of XV239, once to the arctic and back and once around the North Sea oil fields whilst on annual camp at nearby Lossiemouth. The greatest flights of my life, and I have had a few worth telling the grand kids about.

As for that crash, and the Mig crash and every crash since Ramstein yet to come I think you can agree that thankfully the air display community has gone out of its way to increase and maintain overall safety for all involved especially the public. What this has resulted in however is less opportunity to really see aircraft put through their paces properly and displaying to their full potential, apart from as mentioned before test aircraft at the hands of experienced test pilots.

As for XH558, well as you know she's still around like the missing Thunderbird vehicle and in the 80's she was displayed differently often enough, the odd extra touch and go and zoom climb here and another "why not" of a wing-over there.

My point was, and is that there always has been and always will be the chance of a crash at an airshow, it's something we as enthusiasts and they as display pilots are more than aware of and live with and I think safe doesn't necessarily have to mean boring... Ask Anatoly Kvochur, anything he had strapped to him had it's neck wrung and he still walks the earth.

Cheers,

Hewy.

Please let's not get into the whole thing of 'I've seen more crashes than you'. This being an enthusiast site means that it is likely most of us have had, at one time or another, that very tragic experience.

[F-86]

As a kid I always looked forward to seeing the Fast Jet displays, I really think the RAF should leave out some of the training aircraft. The Tutor, Tucano and Kingair should only be static displays, no offence to the pilots but people aren't that interested to see them. At Duxford Sunday when the Tutor was displaying I looked at the people around us and hardly anyone was watching, compare that to the Typhoon and F-16 and even the Strike Eagle demo last year which had people up on their feet constantly watching. The recent Role demo's haven't been that great.
I'd rather the RAF show off the frontline stuff, Tornado, Typhoon and Hawk solos along with Chinook, Merlin, Sea King. Also bring back the Herc tac demo plus Red Arrows and BBMF.

Back to the Typhoon display, yes it could be improved but it wasn't that bad and certainly better than not having one at all.

What you really mean is that you and people like you are not interested in them. In my experience the general public are interested in a much wider range of aircraft being displayed than many hard core enthusiasts. Also the more gentle aircraft are popular with families containing small children as they are less noisy and thus less frightening to the youngsters.

Did I really mean that? I'm not sure that I would have wrote what I did if I mean't something different. Like I said have a look around next time you see a Tutor display. And by the way I am a member of the general public.

[892phan]

I don't often feel compelled to post on this site, but having watched the demo at Odiham this afternoon I find some of the comments made on this topic totally incredulous. Having also grown up in an era when to me aeroplanes were a little more charismatic, and seen solos by F-4s, F-104s, F-100s, F-8s, Lightnings...to my mind, although I'd give my eye teeth to revisit some of those performances, the Typhoon has a great presence amongst the relative blandness of the F-16 era (and I've had 30 years of those, thanks).

Today's routine, a rolling show beneath a 2400ft cloud base, was a tight, precise and accomplished performance and was the most impressive routine I've seen the RAF fly in the aircraft. I was watching the display with several members of the public who were awe-struck by the obvious power the aeroplane has and the impressive angles of attack that the aircraft achieves during those vector rolls that leave so many of you "cold", embellished with plenty of thunder, vapour and bright orange afterburner. They left very happy, and after all it is their £'s that keep it flying. I didn't hear any lament for a bright colour scheme or smokewinders, and no, they hadn't seen a Rafale demo.

My advice would be to enjoy any fast jet performance whilst you still can, and be thankful that the RAF still support them. Their days of entertaining the masses at airshows are numbered...

[stonesfan]

My advice would be to enjoy any fast jet performance whilst you still can, and be thankful that the RAF still support them. Their days of entertaining the masses at airshows are numbered...

Do you have any firm evidence to support this?

[JJC]

Their days of entertaining the masses at airshows are numbered...

Do you have any actual information on that? Or is that just another of those crappy parting comments so often seen that supposedly add gravitas to a post's parting comment, but ends up looking like the ramblings of a child.