The selfish chair brigade

[emjharts]

My Husband and I usually go to the Park and Ride each year as opposed to the airshow, however, each year it gets less and less fun. It has always been because of the ladder brigade but now that they have their own enclosure we assumed it would be much better. However, I shall tell you what we mostly saw yesterday...a wall of chairs and some people even pitched their tents on the front line. My Husband and I aren't the tallest of people and so seeing anything was virtually impossible. What really annoyed us is that these selfish chair owners weren't even sat in them most of the time but standing and so this sea of chairs stretched back a few metres and we were unable to get anywhere near the front to see anything, as for the people who sit in their tents on the front line, they are double rude.
We paid the same amount of money to attend as these selfish chair brigade people but had absolutely no chance of enjoying it as they did and therefore we felt that we wasted £40. The only time it was actually good was when most people had gone and we could actually get to the front, but by then most of the aircraft had gone.
So, maybe next year there can also be a frontline chair brigade enclosure too and then maybe the people like us who keep our tent at the back of the field away from anyone but who want to go and stand at the front and actually see the aircraft will have an opportunity to do so!

[Devon9]

My Husband and I usually go to the Park and Ride each year as opposed to the airshow, however, each year it gets less and less fun. It has always been because of the ladder brigade but now that they have their own enclosure we assumed it would be much better. However, I shall tell you what we mostly saw yesterday...a wall of chairs and some people even pitched their tents on the front line. My Husband and I aren't the tallest of people and so seeing anything was virtually impossible. What really annoyed us is that these selfish chair owners weren't even sat in them most of the time but standing and so this sea of chairs stretched back a few metres and we were unable to get anywhere near the front to see anything, as for the people who sit in their tents on the front line, they are double rude.
We paid the same amount of money to attend as these selfish chair brigade people but had absolutely no chance of enjoying it as they did and therefore we felt that we wasted £40. The only time it was actually good was when most people had gone and we could actually get to the front, but by then most of the aircraft had gone.
So, maybe next year there can also be a frontline chair brigade enclosure too and then maybe the people like us who keep our tent at the back of the field away from anyone but who want to go and stand at the front and actually see the aircraft will have an opportunity to do so!

I Agree with you on tents! but as for chairs most of the show ground was sodden so you arnt going to sit on the floor! and when in the front row there is a rope right in your eyeline and as soon as someone else stands up you have to anyway as its just like at a football match a mexican wave of stand uppers and in the front row tricky to see much seated when those around you stand up!
I didnt get to the front row this year, my problem i didnt get up earlier enough, but thats airshows, frontline space is at a premium, personally would rather see tents banned than frontliners stopped from standing up..
Equally im not a photographer but would imagine photography with a big outfit would be tricky seated.
I Would set the alarm clock a bit earlier..

[jalfrezi]

My Husband and I usually go to the Park and Ride each year as opposed to the airshow, however, each year it gets less and less fun. It has always been because of the ladder brigade but now that they have their own enclosure we assumed it would be much better. However, I shall tell you what we mostly saw yesterday...a wall of chairs and some people even pitched their tents on the front line. My Husband and I aren't the tallest of people and so seeing anything was virtually impossible. What really annoyed us is that these selfish chair owners weren't even sat in them most of the time but standing and so this sea of chairs stretched back a few metres and we were unable to get anywhere near the front to see anything, as for the people who sit in their tents on the front line, they are double rude.
We paid the same amount of money to attend as these selfish chair brigade people but had absolutely no chance of enjoying it as they did and therefore we felt that we wasted £40. The only time it was actually good was when most people had gone and we could actually get to the front, but by then most of the aircraft had gone.
So, maybe next year there can also be a frontline chair brigade enclosure too and then maybe the people like us who keep our tent at the back of the field away from anyone but who want to go and stand at the front and actually see the aircraft will have an opportunity to do so!

I Agree with you on tents! but as for chairs most of the show ground was sodden so you arnt going to sit on the floor! and when in the front row there is a rope right in your eyeline and as soon as someone else stands up you have to anyway as its just like at a football match a mexican wave of stand uppers and in the front row tricky to see much seated when those around you stand up!
I didnt get to the front row this year, my problem i didnt get up earlier enough, but thats airshows, frontline space is at a premium, personally would rather see tents banned than frontliners stopped from standing up..
Equally im not a photographer but would imagine photography with a big outfit would be tricky seated.
I Would set the alarm clock a bit earlier..

I agree about tents, ladders and windbreaks being banned from the frontline, but chairs? If there were no chairs, everyone would be standing ALL of the time, I actually sat down during some of the displays as I'd seen them before, but being a keen photographer means I have to stand to take photos (BTW I only got to the front on the Sunday), and if I want pictures of the aircraft landing/taking off then I have to be at the front!

If you want to be at the front then it's quite simple, get there earlier!

[Dragon Rapide]

There is a no standing rule for those seated in the FoD enclosure at Duxford and it works well - I have rarely seen it abused. And there is metal fence in front of you not just a rope, but we all seem to manage!!

[DaveBlu]

As Jalfrezi has just said, get there earlier, although I feel some empathy towards your concern, I too get annoyed by the front liners, I aspired to get there early as possible only to greet a couple of hundred strong queue before me, that was at 06:45 am, as the gates were opened, there was a line created for pay on the day, who, it appeared gained a 20-30 queue advantage before me, I laughed at all the lard arse who physically ran to grab their chosen spot, I took step ladders, only to find this "enclosure" was the furthest point away from any activity, the wheel chair enclosure was a close second, I took my ladders back to the car, and returned to a crowded crowd line, I took out a plastic step, that gave me a 6 inch help to my 5'6" height, only to be told by a viz vested officianado get off it, I pleaded with him to see sense, citing the 6'11" tall bloke next to me was blocking more of a view than I was, I requested that he put all the tall people at the back, and all the short people to the front, he wasn't able to do this, all in all, I have learnt in
a short space of time about airshow culture, and that is, you can please some of the people, some of the time..

From today, I plan to sleep in the greenhouse, with manure to help me grow, eat a shed load of junk food, to add to my weight and start taking sprinting lessons off Usain Bolt, I plan to set my alarm much, much earlier than the 04:00 am setting, and just for short measure, plant a tripod on the crowd line, I willl have no intention of using.

[DamienB]

My Husband and I usually go to the Park and Ride each year as opposed to the airshow

Big fan of watching parked cars?

[DonBonzo]

This is a long standing and difficult issue for sure, and to my mind there's no easy solution. To be fair though, at RIAT, unlike many other shows, there's a larger range of options available to you in order to enhance your viewing experience, but yes, it can cost an arm and a leg. From sitting on the pavement at the end of the runway at the less expensive end, to a six day FRIAT pass at £198 at the other, there's sure to be something to suit all pockets.

During the arrival days I was camping, and walking into the P&V East enclosure. I know of folks who were camping much further away than I who were in the queue at 4am on each day, having walked three miles to get there, but that's dedication beyond the call of duty IMO. He also wasn't first in line either!

I too get frustrated with people who put up tents on the front line, and THEN DON'T USE THEM! Chairs though, for the older folks like me, are a bit of a necessity I'm afraid. The days are long past where I could stand for 12 hours straight for three (or more) days in a row.

I do sympathise with the OP, but as others have said - if you feel you need to be at the front to get the best pictures (you don't btw, many of the guys posting images on here weren't) then you really have no option but to adopt the 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' mentality, and be in the queue before 6am ish next year. I know that's my target!

[Dragon Rapide]

But even if you are there that early but still several rows behind the very early starters you still have the OPs problem. A no-standing rule, as I posted earlier, is the sensible answer, or failing that, forget the fight with photographers and see the show in more civilised comfort. In the circumstances described P&V is a misnomer for anyone who does just want to P&V.

[jalfrezi]

But even if you are there that early but still several rows behind the very early starters you still have the OPs problem. A no-standing rule, as I posted earlier, is the sensible answer, or failing that, forget the fight with photographers and see the show in more civilised comfort. In the circumstances described P&V is a misnomer for anyone who does just want to P&V.

I got a space on the front row at 9:15, admittedly it was roughly in line with the Hercs and not crowd centre, but I got some nice takeoff and landing shots, so it can be done you just have to compromise a bit....

[DDM10]

Is there not a grandstand? The problem is that on flat ground there really is no solution, there will always be people that don't have a clear view. I had this problem at Yeovilton, during the cammando assualt finale, we couldn't really see anything. The only solution I could think of was getting there for the gates opening, but that's not easy for us as we live 130 miles away. In anycase if we did get to the front, we'd just be one of the annoying people blocking the view for others.
Getting on the grandstand is all I can think of.

[davidjones533]

I've never been to the park & ride, but in the showground itself there didn't seem to be too much of a problem with getting near the front - at either end of the runway at least. I was at the front on the east end for around 8am on Saturday (and I had a chair to avoid both sitting in the mud and standing all day!), and there was still huge gaps there at 9.30am! On Sunday I watched the displays from further back near the Cold War Zone, and unless you're bothered about photographing them on the runway then you get a great view and don't have to strain your neck as much looking up!

[parabola50]

I completely agree with this. It was my first time at park & view and it felt like I'd wasted my money. It seems it's mainly for the hardcore enthusiast who will arrive at 5am to claim a large chunk of the barrier by lining their big equipment like oversized tripods and bags along the front. We left early because there really wasn't any point in being there, we couldn't see anything at all. I managed to get a few pictures by standing on my chair and holding my camera above my head, hoping I'd aimed it properly.

I know this is no fault of DBH, it's just the way it is so at least I learned the lesson that P&V isn't the the casuals and I'll save my money next time.

[AlexC]

Perhaps it should be called Park and Photograph because that's what most people go there to do. Monday is particularly manic, especially at the east end, and in past years I've managed to get very close to the front of the queue in front of the gate to the enclosure before it opened. When it opened it was a mad dash to get a choice spot at the front of the crowd line because there is really no alternative to that front position if you are serious about getting decent photos, and chair or no chair you have to stand up in order to do that.

[jingernut]

My Husband and I usually go to the Park and Ride each year as opposed to the airshow, however, each year it gets less and less fun. It has always been because of the ladder brigade but now that they have their own enclosure we assumed it would be much better. However, I shall tell you what we mostly saw yesterday...a wall of chairs and some people even pitched their tents on the front line. My Husband and I aren't the tallest of people and so seeing anything was virtually impossible. What really annoyed us is that these selfish chair owners weren't even sat in them most of the time but standing and so this sea of chairs stretched back a few metres and we were unable to get anywhere near the front to see anything, as for the people who sit in their tents on the front line, they are double rude.
We paid the same amount of money to attend as these selfish chair brigade people but had absolutely no chance of enjoying it as they did and therefore we felt that we wasted £40. The only time it was actually good was when most people had gone and we could actually get to the front, but by then most of the aircraft had gone.
So, maybe next year there can also be a frontline chair brigade enclosure too and then maybe the people like us who keep our tent at the back of the field away from anyone but who want to go and stand at the front and actually see the aircraft will have an opportunity to do so!

Sorry but fail to see what you are complaining about. You get there early, you get a spot at the front, simple as that.

I spend the day going back and forward to the front, looking over peoples shoulders and have no problem at all.

Why not go down the ladder end as it's actually quite easy to have a peek between people and see some of the action. Also, down that end you get to see the aircraft in the air, rather than just on the ground.

I find it rather rude that you "expect" to be able to get to the front as a given.

[Devon9]

I think the moral is like all things in life, the more effort you put in the more likely you are to acheive your goals, it isnt rocket science, the runway is 3046m long say an average width of a person 1m (many i saw were 2 ) that means even if the whole runway had a crowd line there would only be 3004 people that could be at the front and thats a fraction of the people at RIAT, i think rather than say it is for the enthusiast, translates to, it is the enthusiast that is passionate enough about aviation to get up earlier enough to get those spots
As much as i love RIAT i am not that committed, If i got the missus up that earlier to see an aircraft then i would be expected to get up that early on boxing day to wrestle my way into the next ladies section sale so hence i didnt get to the front, but thats my choice, if everyone at the front didnt stand i am not sure it would make much difference TBH.
Further away from the crowd line is sometimes better if you are not at the front.

Tents on the other hand should be banned, large footprint if one person is in it and in the case of the weekend took up alot of dry ground and with their use increasing it would become a problem if we all had them!

[scermat]

RIAT 2012 was my first overseas airshow experience. Had no idea what to expect.

Whilst I did agree that the step ladder enclosure was a good idea, I disagree about banning tents and chairs. Staying up for 12 hours is impractical. Even tents... We had no tent the first day (Wed). Everything got soaked to the extent that one of my mate's cameras even stopped temporarily working. Following what others were doing it was a no-brainer not to buy one from there and put it up to at least protect the camera gear. The British weather doesn't exactly encourage you not to put up a tent... umbrellas and raincoats were useless.

At the end of the day it was much lower than the umbrellas some people were putting up.

If you ask me, if you want to get to the front and have an unobstructed view you should get there early. having to drive 150 miles is no excuse. Some people (me included) have to come along from a lot farther away than that.

[boff180]

You cannot withhold the right for people to sit down or stand up if they choose.

It is the same with all events.

End of the day, the vast majority of action at airshows happens well above people's heads.

Andy

[DDM10]

having to drive 150 miles is no excuse

It all depends on cirumstances, me on my own- no problem, but for those with kids it's a bit different. I think if you can't get there early you just have to accept it, like Andy says most of it happens above the heads anyway.

[Thebuzu]

At many times you cannot really get the photo you wish for sitting down.

Also please bear in mind that the photographic equipment costs a lot of money and the camp at many times is ideal for these people to shelter their equipment. I cannot really see someone having his camera out with the rain that came out on friday. Cameras may be shower proof but you still have to take care of them.

We used to be at the queue around 5 am to get a good spot.

[capercaillie]

Quite honestly one of the strangest posts ever???

Maybe next year we need a crouching section?

[Vodka]

99% of the time the aircraft are in the sky. . . . minimum 500 feet !

I'm not seeing the problem here?

[jonah626]

To be fair - I think the OP is referring to departures from P+V East - quite clearly most of the action takes place at ground level at PVE and not in the air (ie aircraft taxi to position, sitting on the runway and powering up and away), rotation doesn't take place until someway down the runway.... so alot of the action isn't easily viewable away from the crowdline.

I too went on departures and sat back from the front - so know what the OP is referring to - it is indeed difficult to see the aircraft but I was happy to sit back and enjoy the atmos and try to duck in near the front to take the odd photo. That said I gave up taking photos after the first hour as it was very difficult to get a shot off through the heads! But hey, if taking photos were my priority then I suppose I'd get there at 6am and queue or go in the FRIAT stand.

I also went on an arrivals days and the view from 10-20m back is fine as the aircraft are up in the air - but I do have some understanding of and sympathy for what the OP is talking about.

Jonah

[Mantog]

I didn't get plotted up until about 8:30 by which time front of crowdline was fully taken which I'd kinda expected anyway, so I put my little beach shelter and base camp up 10 yards behind some seated people and got settled down. 10 yards back you get some slight elevation anyway. But then some people turned up and setup a step ladder in front of me, sharing it between them. They were foreign so I felt awkward going up and telling them to put said step ladder away, maybe they couldn't understand all the rules and regs, and I'm also sick of being the guy who 'gets involved'. I just had to work around it but looking at my pictures most of the decent take off shots are ruined by his head!!

I used to get to front of crowdline by getting up mega early and would defend my position vigorously with long hard Paddington stares if needed. If I came back and someone had pushed in, they got moved. But now, I simply cannot get up and away that early, preferring to come round with a brew and a fry up before heading in!!

[DaveBlu]

Maybe there's a need to erect similar seating too what is used in the FRIAT stand, I've seen the speed these trucks can dismantle and reassemble, surely towing them to the PavE field could be rationalised by introducing a small fee?

[AlexC]

For a short period there was a small grandstand set up in the eastern P & V. One year on the Monday after a few people had already paid for and taken their seat in the grandstand a jobsworth arrived and started to dismantle it dispite protests from the people sat high up. It turned out that he should have been taking down the public grandstand way up in the showground. After he finally twigged that he'd been taking down the wrong one he tighten up the fixings again and headed off to take down the right one. Absolutely hilarious!