Hamilton stripped of Belgian GP victory

[Plane Mad]

The FIA, Ferrari International Assistance do it again!

LH gave the position back, this wasn't enough for the FIA because a Ferrari still didn't win!

[Mario]

It was Hamilton's attempted pass around the outside of the Bus Stop chicane (last corner). He then let Kimi back through momentarily on the pit straight before immediately picking up the tow and diving up the inside into turn one. This is I believe the "advantage" he gained; my understanding from another forum is that you're supposed to allow 1 or 2 corners after giving a place back before re-attemtping a pass.

And Kimi wouldn't have done the same if the positions had been reversed?

[LN Strike Eagle]

Probably not - he's not as impetuous as Lewis. He should have got out of the move once it was clear Kimi had the advantage going into the chicane, and he wouldn't have cut any corner. He was much faster at that stage and would have got Kimi either at turn one or the top of the hill after Eau Rouge anyway.

However, I refer you to my earlier comments, where I clearly stated that it's a harsh penalty.

[Mario]

However, I refer you to my earlier comments, where I clearly stated that it's a harsh penalty.

I stand corrected. However, some of the motivation for the decision may be something to do with something else you said earlier

More to the point, it's the Italian Grand Prix!

Or am I just being too cynical?

[Armadillos]

A good message that the FIA sends here after the last two races. Commit a dangerous act which is a big safety hazard and you get fined, then you`ve got an over taking move which may have had a slight advantage and you get a time penalty which results in a two place drop in result.

Hmm yes saftey really does come through as a top priority in the sport from those two examples doesn`t it!

Possibly more understandable if Kimi had still been on the race track at the end but he wasn`t!

[LN Strike Eagle]

Excellent clip here which clearly shows Lewis took the decision to cut the corner. It's clear that Kimi was ahead.

Stop leaving chicanes open with tarmac run offs, and this won't happen. Stick a row of tyres across that part of the track, problem solved - nobody cuts corner, nobody gains advantages and any mistakes are punished.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

[Vodka]

From what has been reported this morning the appeal has been formerly submitted. .

maclaren have seen the telemetry from ferrari and vice versa and state that kimi accelerated and eased of the wheel in the chicane living no room for hamilton. .which Kimi is entitled to do. If Lewis had maintained his position then probably both cars would of collided and possibly both cars out of the race?
Lewis went wide through the chicane run off and got back behind Kimi. . . according to the speed difference Lewis did not get a draft as he was 6kph slower at that position. . lewis jinked left and forced kimi to defend, lewis then jinked right into the inside of la source where he out broke Kimi. Again telemetry will factually show breaking points from each car. Kimi's Ferrari was slower when the rain started and Lewis went for gold fairly, realizing his chicane overrun gave the lead back to Kimi as the rules state. Charlie Whiting was asked immediately at the point via radio on that lap if the move was ok. He deemed it was

the chicane was a racing incident which does not show Lewis having gained an advantage. The advantage was gained by out breaking Kimi some hundreds of metres further on. Next lap Kimi retook the lead only for him to throw it in the wall as he over-cooked the throttle on the exit in the wet with lewis some 70 plus meters behind him. No infringment there just Kimi losing his cool and making a mistake.

Having watched F1 now since 78. . Im struggling to find such a poor decisions by the FIA and probably a very corrosive decision for the sport. Bias to ferrari who knows I simply see it as a shocking decision on its own merit.

[Vodka]

where does 25 secs come from ?

Article 30.3(a) of the sporting regulations and Appendix L chapter 4 Article 2 (g) of the International Sporting Code.

Doesn't have any such wording or scale?


and erm . . . didn't Kimi overtake Rosberg on a yellow flag?? where was his penalty?

[LN Strike Eagle]

25 second penalty is what they add onto your time if you commit an infringement in the last 5 laps that would have otherwise resulted in a drive through penalty.

Kimi hardly "overtook" him - Rosberg was off the track recovering from a spin. He took avoiding action. What other option did he have? Come the a stand still in the middle of the road and wait for Rosberg to sort himself out?

[Vodka]

ill have to recheck the flag positions but was it a case of kimi not lifting enough prior? hence why he zaped past a hamilton slipping on the grass and a rosberg on the track recovering after a spin?

[Mario]

Excellent clip here which clearly shows Lewis took the decision to cut the corner. It's clear that Kimi was ahead.

And closing the door, leaving no space at the apex. Lewis took the decision to cut the corner as either backing off or applying the brakes would have caused him to lose control and t-bone Kimi, thus causing an avoidable accident. He then backed off to allow Kimi to move ahead. Would be very interested to know what order the timing screens had them as they crossed the line on that lap, as I guess it would show Kimi ahead.

Kimi hardly "overtook" him - Rosberg was off the track recovering from a spin. He took avoiding action.

Agree with you there. However, what would I know, as I've only been following F1 since '79, when Max and Bernie started to become thorns in the side of the FIA (or FISA as it was known then)

[LN Strike Eagle]

Excellent clip here which clearly shows Lewis took the decision to cut the corner. It's clear that Kimi was ahead.

And closing the door, leaving no space at the apex.

Which he's perfectly entitled to to - he has the line and track position. Hamilton could have just applied the brakes. How would he have lost control braking? He'd just managed a huge stop on the way into the chicane without losing it...

[Armadillos]

I`d go with the arguement that there wasn`t enough space and even if he had of braked hard he still would have used the run off.

[Abingdonman]

I,m British(naye English )and I want a Brit to win anything going,but LH cheated no matter what else happened,with these things its swings and roundabouts,anyways ...LH is still leading the pack

[LN Strike Eagle]

I`d go with the arguement that there wasn`t enough space and even if he had of braked hard he still would have used the run off.

Plenty of space. Kimi got his car slowed into the second part and there's no reason why Hamilton couldn't have either - they have extremely powerful brakes, and they're only travelling at 50mph between those chicanes in the dry!

If there was a concrete wall there, Lewis wouldn't have been anywhere near it. It's just the fact they keep opening these areas out that makes cutting the corner a viable option.

[Mario]

OK, another perspective.

Lap 10 - Kovalainen tries an optomistic out braking move on Webber at the Bus Stop chicane. Doesn't get through, doesn't avoid hitting Webber. Result - Drive through penalty for causing an 'avoidable accident'

Lap 42 - Hamilton tries an optomistic out braking move on Raikkonen at the Bus Stop chicane. Doesn't go through, does avoid hitting Raikkonen. Result - Drive through penalty for avoiding an 'avoidable accident'

Consistancy? Discuss......

[Mario]

If there was a concrete wall there, Lewis wouldn't have been anywhere near it.

But, if there was a concrete wall there, would Kimi have shut the door like that?
And, casting our minds back a bit, would Senna have backed off in Lewis's situation?

[LN Strike Eagle]

Lap 42 - Hamilton tries an optomistic out braking move on Raikkonen at the Bus Stop chicane. Doesn't go through, does avoid hitting Raikkonen. Result - Drive through penalty for avoiding an 'avoidable accident'

That's wrong. The penalty was for taking an advantage by cutting a corner he could have made, and crutially, how Lewis "gave back" the advantage. It's got nowt to do with accidents.

[Mario]

Yes, LNStrikeEagle, I know the penalty was for 'unfair advantage', but he cut the corner to avoid an 'avoidable accident'. He then, as you put it '"gave back" the advantage'. I don't recall any specific mention in the regulations of exactly how to give back an advantage, for example waiting for two corners before attacking again. Therefore, the incident is open to interpretation.
I think that, given the same situation (not, you'll note, taking into account that Kimi would not put himself in that situation, as it's a variable we can only guess at), Kimi would have avoided the accident and given back the advantage in exactly the same way as Lewis did. What I do question is, would the stewards' interpretation have been the same, and would the penalty have been the same if the situation was reversed? The cynic in me says not.
These problems always seem to occur because the stewards of the meeting are local appointees from the relevant national motor sports association and not directly accountable to the FIA. Perhaps it is time for the FIA to appoint a permenant panel of stewards, chaired by Charlie Whiting, for every grand prix to be used for the sake of consistancy and accountability.

[2shae]

Excellent clip here which clearly shows Lewis took the decision to cut the corner. It's clear that Kimi was ahead.

And closing the door, leaving no space at the apex.

Which he's perfectly entitled to to - he has the line and track position. Hamilton could have just applied the brakes. How would he have lost control braking? He'd just managed a huge stop on the way into the chicane without losing it...

I do not think that Kimi had the racing line into the corner. See here, under Spa Controversy. If you pause the action at 14 secs you can clearly see that Lewis is ahead and on the racing (dry) line. As many have said he then had to go across the chicane to avoid an accident.

Without reading the rules, apparently Lewis should have waited at least another 2/3 corners before trying to overtake again. That maybe the reason for the stewards making the decision but they should be issuing a statement to confirm this.

[LN Strike Eagle]

I do not think that Kimi had the racing line into the corner. See here, under Spa Controversy. If you pause the action at 14 secs you can clearly see that Lewis is ahead and on the racing (dry) line.

...which put's him on the outside, and Kimi on the inside. Kimi has the (inside) line through the corner, and is clearly ahead midway through the chicane and into the second part of it. It's clear from the onboard that Hamilton was never going to make that move stick, so he should have got out of it and not cut the corner, thus avoiding all of the fall out. He didn't have to take the shortcut to avoid an accident at all - F1 cars are fitted with brakes as standard.

[MikeB]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-5UnPeyzcHM .

Schumacher didnt get a 25 second penalty.. - Although not finnishing he still managed to finnish 8th. Atleast Lewis backed off and let Kimi infront (even if he did overtake too soon after).

Mike

[Vodka]

ANYWAY!!! Roll on next year when we havent got to put up with flamin ads!!!

BBC

and hopefully no James 'Gooooooooo' Allen.

[stuart n]

I'll add my 2 pence worth to this debate. I'm a Ferrari and Massa fan and think Hamilton is over hyped, he is after all driving for 1 of the top 2 teams, but I have some sympathy for him.
In my opinion he done nothing wrong yesterday, he backed off and let Kimi pass him and then overtook again. The penalty he got is totally unfair. For the good of the sport he should have his win re-instated otherwise what's the point in watching. Enough is enough now, give him his win back and let him and Massa fight to the end for the title. Some papers today claim he's been robbed of the title, I reject that as he lead the championship last year with 2 races to go and managed to throw it away, so nothings certain yet.
I also reject all this FIA Ferrari talk, it's well known that Ron Dennis and the head of the FIA don't get on. It's a personal thing between them as opposed to Ferrari.
What I will say is that I admire the way Lewis hasn't played the race card yet, a lesser man than him would have by now.

[2shae]

I do not think that Kimi had the racing line into the corner. See here, under Spa Controversy. If you pause the action at 14 secs you can clearly see that Lewis is ahead and on the racing (dry) line.

...which put's him on the outside, and Kimi on the inside. Kimi has the (inside) line through the corner, and is clearly ahead midway through the chicane and into the second part of it. It's clear from the onboard that Hamilton was never going to make that move stick, so he should have got out of it and not cut the corner, thus avoiding all of the fall out. He didn't have to take the shortcut to avoid an accident at all - F1 cars are fitted with brakes as standard.

But not the inside line for the next part of the chicane where Lewis is on the inside. So to avoid an accident he pulled over! Lewis was on the racing line throughout the first half of the chicane and Kimi isn't. This could go on forever!

What would finish it though is a sensible explanation of the reasoning behind the decision. I don't think that this will happen until the appeal has been heard.