UK Heritage Aviation Trust

UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby kinglear27 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 4:43 pm

The newly formed UK Heritage Aviation Trust has announced their long term intention of maintaining a fleet of vintage aircraft in airworthy condition for future generations to enjoy. If funding allows, they would like to purchase the rare two seat De Havilland Vampire Mk.55 G-HATD which is currently for sale with Historic and Classic Aircraft Sales on behalf of Air Atlantique. Fundraising has recently begun to buy this iconic vintage aircraft and you can donate by clicking on to following link:
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding ... tion-Trust

Why the De Havilland Vampire?
First flown in September 1943, the De Havilland Vampire was the second jet fighter aircraft to enter Royal Air Force service. Naturally, with its top speed of 882km/h, it set many aviation firsts, including being the first aircraft in RAF service to exceed 500mph in flight. Many variants were made by its manufacturer, De Havilland, which proved to be extremely successful. One notable variant was the Sea Vampire, which became the first ever pure jet aircraft to take off and land from an aircraft carrier. Other air forces were keen to get into the action as well, so overall, a record number of 3268 Vampires were built. Retired as late as 1990, by the Swiss Air force, the aircraft has lived up to its name as one of the greatest fighters that has ever lived. Today, only a handful of Vampires are in airworthy condition operating on the airshow circuit. As a result, they are nationally recognised as “benchmark” aircraft - the highest level of aircraft classification and preservation.

Why U1229?
Built in 1959 under license for the Swiss air force, U1229 (now G-HATD) is a rare two seat Vampire Mk55. With only a few 2 seat Vampires being in flight worthy condition, U1229 represents a great investment for the trust.

How much does she cost?
U1229 costs £46,500 as is or £69,500 with a fresh permit to fly and major service. We estimate another £30,500 will be needed to pay for insurance and hangar costs, as well as ensuring that we can create merchandise for the public to buy at airshows.

Who will maintain her?
We plan to look at a variety of third party maintenance organisations, preferably those with experience maintaining the type.

Is there anyone with experience of the industry involved with UKHAT?
We are in communication with several pilots and engineers from the industry, some of which have either maintained the Vampire, flown the Vampire in the past or have a vast number of hours on flying jet aircraft. Some of these pilots will only need to get their type rating back on the Vampire, before they can fly the type again.

Do you have a website?
Our website is currently under construction, but we do have a Facebook page which can be found by clicking on the following link:
https://www.facebook.com/UKHeritageAvia ... t/?fref=ts

Thank you for all of your support so far. Please get in touch with us if you have any more questions and we will get back to you as soon as possible.
kinglear27

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby CJS on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:14 pm

"in communication with..." ,"looking at a variety of..." and "preferably those with experience of..." are three phrases which I'm afraid stick out for me.

No doubt it's a well intentioned and genuinely enthusiastic enterprise but it seems a little thin on substance at present.

Just my initial thoughts.
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby CJS on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:32 pm

Couple of questions if I may...

1. What does "in communication" mean? If I send an email to someone I could argue that I'm in communication with them, even if they haven't replied.

2. In this day and age why start up without a website? A short delay in announcing your intentions would be worth it to make the start up more fully formed.

I'm not meaning to sound negative, these are just questions which immediately spring to mind. I'm sure others have more.
"Forewarned is forearmed"
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CJS

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby kinglear27 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:50 pm

To answer your question, we have had discussions with several experienced figures in the industry and they have already offered some very helpful advice to us that we will utilise as we go into the future. Also, we did make a website that was almost finished, but this was JP XM424, which has now been sold to another operator. We are currently in the process of making these changes and should hopefully launch the website in a few weeks.
Thank you for your enquiry.
UKHAT
kinglear27

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby WG655 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:56 pm

A few if I may:

1) Has a full engineering survey been performed to ensure the aircraft is the most suitable Vampire to purchase?

2) How quickly could the aircraft be made airworthy?

3) How do you plan to market the aircraft given the at best lukewarm public response seen towards the WK163 project?

4) How do you envisage the 'trust' succeeding in the vintage jet market given the collapses of organisations such as Midair? Why will this be any different?

5) Can you give a detailed breakdown of your estimated annual costs?

The enthusiasm is admirable however, given what I've seen on social media and the vague language Chris refers to above, I have serious concerns as to how realistic the goals are. Its all very well having interested pilots and engineers but how will they be paid for?
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WG655
UKAR Staff

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby kinglear27 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 6:10 pm

WG655 wrote:A few if I may:

1) Has a full engineering survey been performed to ensure the aircraft is the most suitable Vampire to purchase?

2) How quickly could the aircraft be made airworthy?

3) How do you plan to market the aircraft given the at best lukewarm public response seen towards the WK163 project?

4) How do you envisage the 'trust' succeeding in the vintage jet market given the collapses of organisations such as Midair? Why will this be any different?

5) Can you give a detailed breakdown of your estimated annual costs?

The enthusiasm is admirable however, given what I've seen on social media and the vague language Chris refers to above, I have serious concerns as to how realistic the goals are. Its all very well having interested pilots and engineers but how will they be paid for?

Here is some information regarding engineering that can be found on the Historic and Classic Aircraft Sales website:
TOW: 6069kg

Total Hours: 2297:55

Next Inspection Due: Major inspection

CAA Permit to fly renewal due: TBA

Manufacturer: Federal Aircraft Factory - Switzerland

Aircraft Class: Fixed-Wing Landplane

EASA Category: Non-EASA

Engine: 1x Goblin 35, Serial No. 8492 - ECU assessed as L/X, to be replaced. Current Hours – 494:50 (Military 227:00 + Civil 267:50). TBO 450 Hrs, increased to 600 Hrs with Mods 1136, 1140 & 1141 embodied, No evidence of these Mods being embodied in Log Books).

Avionics Fitted: N/A

Fatigue Information: Basic (Fatigue) Hours – 595.2 (Limit 2000, A/C re-spared at 1801:00 A/f Hrs, Fatigue Factor 1.2 used).
Port & Stbd Wing Basic Hours – 2702.6 (Limit 3000, Military Service Fatigue Factor 1.2 Used, Civilian 1.0).

Maintenance: Suggest start cycle with ‘Major Inspection’. Last Maintenance Carried out – 150 Hour/Annual Inspection – November 2012, (Very Basic).

Pressure Vessels (N2 & O2) – Require Hydrostatic Test.
Ejection Seats – Require Bay Service and Replacement Carts.
Parachutes- Require Bay Service.
Batteries x2 – Require Capacity Test/Re Charge.
Fire Extinguisher System – Requires Test & Replacement Cartridge.
Radio/Transponder to be Functioned.
A/C to be weighed.
Pitot/Static Instruments - replaced with units reading in Feet & Millibars (check of A/C required).
Electric Start System – Approval Required.
Starter Engaged Warning Light – Requirement (check of A/C required).

It would only take a few months to fit her engine (her current one is time expired) and do a major service.

We are currently working on the documentation to receive a charitable status from the charities commission - we will send this off as soon as we have trustees (this will be sorted out as soon as possible). You have to remember that the Midair Squadron was not a charity, so only got a very limited amount of money from the public.

We plan to create and sell merchandise at airshows and or our website, while we will crowdfund for the initial purchase of the aircraft (as well as securing her future for at least a couple of years).

The aircraft costs about £1000 per hour to fly, and we will also have to pay for hangar and insurance costs - we will have an accurate figure shortly when we have finished breaking down the costs of looking after her.

Many thanks for your questions.
UKHAT
kinglear27

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Pringles on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 6:51 pm

£1000 per hour is a lot when you've only raised £25 from 2 people after a week. There's no way I would deprive a more deserving and well established restoration group of my hard earned money for what is clearly an amateur (though obviously well meaning) outfit. One look at your Facebook page (which has rather tailed off in terms of increase in followers for the last week as well) and I can see numerous spelling mistakes and general informal interaction that hardly inspires any trust (no pun intended).

Best of luck, but I think we've got more chance of seeing a pig fly than U1229 with UKHAT.
If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic
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Pringles

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 7:29 pm

I am reserving judgement for a while, and going to give UKHAT a chance to 'polish' their act a bit.

However, as it stands, and although i salute your aims, my money is going to another 'boomer' which is rather larger and, in my opinion, a tad more enigmatic, based in Yeovilton.

Best of luck and i look forward to more updates from you as and when.
Dave
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Thumper on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 7:36 pm

How long is a piece of string, or in this case, if money is donated, how long do people have to wait before they see a return on their 'investment'?

If this plan never comes to fruition what happens to the funds and where are the funds held?

What is your background and what experience do you bring to this venture?

I wish you all the best but flying vintage jets is really not popular at the moment and with the VTTS fallout still burning I think people will be reluctant to give their hard earned away to someone who just fancied having a collection of vintage jets but didn't have any money.
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Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Rebecca_1984 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 7:54 pm

Not trying to be negative but you must stop calling yourself a trust until you legally are one, when asking for donations you need to be getting the basics right.
Rebecca_1984

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby FGR2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 8:04 pm

The thing is G-UHAT is not even a British built aircraft, the T11 from a North Weald is a genuine de Havilland one and is historically a lot more relevant and desirable.

Buying something is one thing, but the ongoing cost of flying, certification, hangarage, insurance is another thing all together. You have to sell a lot of mugs, posters and key rings to pay for all of that.

Not wishing to put a downer on the enthusiasm here, but if it was as easy as a crowdfund, facebook campaign, and selling mugs, a lot of other people would be doing it for much more interesting and unique "British" aircraft with genuine (and marketable) RAF history, such as the CAF Meteors or North Weald Vampire, or Canberra.

Is their anything special about this Swiss built Vampire, over the Norwegian ones (aren't they ex-Swiss?) which are regular visitors over here anyway?

Good luck with the venture anyway.
FGR2

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 11:14 am

Seems to have gone quiet on here.

I'm surprised that UKHATkinglear hasn't come back to assuage our thoughts here.

By not doing so, I worry about the veracity of the project to be honest as a professional organization would at least report every week with something to say..... ala VTTS guys.
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Ouragan on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 12:35 pm

With the amount of derision that he's being getting I can't say I'm surprised. And why report every week if nothing's happened?
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Ouragan

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 12:41 pm

This spurious "Trust" has made the same mistake The People's Mosquito did in botching the launch. Before you go cap-in-hand to an already donation-weary public you MUST have a plan properly thought out with the right, experienced people on board.

For all VTTS' flaws, they nailed that from day one.

TPM are still struggling for credibility because they did not.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Russ on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 1:00 pm

Ouragan wrote:With the amount of derision that he's being getting I can't say I'm surprised. And why report every week if nothing's happened?

But if you're trying to sell the concept, the very least you can do is respond to concerns of potential donors, even if you don't have all the details ironed out. Honesty and integrity go a long way.
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Russ

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Rebecca_1984 on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 5:01 pm

For anyone who does not follow UKHAT on social media the group are now asking if people would like to see them operating two Vampires, I'm sure the people behind UKHAT are well meaning but the entire thing is looking a bit of a farce to be honest.
Rebecca_1984

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby MicrolightDriver on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 6:13 pm

Always good to communicate, and doing so certainly makes for a quieter life on here, but I wonder how much 'real' money is really to be attracted from the enthusiast sector?

Certainly event organisers might sell above average price tickets for special enclosures etc, photo sessions look like an earner, but beyond that, is there real evidence of the enthusiast sector significantly buying in to the pure donation 'market'?

Some will certainly give generously ( on average I suppose any sector of an audience will have some who do so ) but the vast majority of money discussion on here ( and not just UKHAT or Vulcan-related before we start ) seems to be about the horror of parting with 'hard earned' rather than giving it away..

:dunno:
A proud 'Vulcanist'!
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MicrolightDriver

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby UKHAT_OFFICIAL on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 12:32 pm

Firstly let me first introduce myself. I am Nigel and I am now actively involved with UKHAT and as such thought it appropriate to reply to some of the previous comments that have been posted on this topic. I fully understand the scepticism that has become apparent in some of the replies and I would like to hope that this update will go some way to allay that scepticism.

Let me emphasise that this is a serious undertaking and whilst the formation of the trust and the associated infrastructure is in its preliminary stages, we do have a clear plan in place in order to achieve our ultimate goal. Negotiations are on-going and whilst those are in progress due to their commercial sensitivity, I will not be going into specific details, I will, however, be providing regular updates within those constraints. I appreciate concerns have been raised regarding funding, technical support, spares availability etc. but please be assured these are being addressed with the seriousness that a project of this magnitude dictates. Everyone within UKHAT is acutely aware of the commitment required if we want to make our goal a success and we make no bones about the fact that this in no way will be an "easy ride".

We are currently progressing with the legal process of forming the trust and preparing the necessary governance documentation and I will in due course be providing an update on these activities. In the meantime we look forward to your support and would like to thank everyone for their patience whilst we establish the trust and complete our initial negotiations.

Nigel :smile:
UKHAT_OFFICIAL

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Screechy on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 12:45 pm

Just can't get any enthusiasm up for more Vampire displays. I know they aren't massively common but they aren't exactly going to pull in the punters
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Screechy

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Vampire 1973 on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 1:24 pm

Screechy wrote:Just can't get any enthusiasm up for more Vampire displays. I know they aren't massively common but they aren't exactly going to pull in the punters


Sensibly speaking are there Jets that would?
Vampire 1973

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Screechy on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 1:37 pm

Vampire 1973 wrote:
Screechy wrote:Just can't get any enthusiasm up for more Vampire displays. I know they aren't massively common but they aren't exactly going to pull in the punters


Sensibly speaking are there Jets that would?


Yeah there are but getting those back in the air with all the regs would be i'm sure a step too far. I mean an Phantom, Lightning, Starfighter, Buccaneer etc would certainly get the pulses racing somewhat more, something with balls!
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Screechy

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby LN Strike Eagle on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 1:46 pm

Screechy wrote:
Vampire 1973 wrote:
Screechy wrote:Just can't get any enthusiasm up for more Vampire displays. I know they aren't massively common but they aren't exactly going to pull in the punters


Sensibly speaking are there Jets that would?


Yeah there are but getting those back in the air with all the regs would be i'm sure a step too far. I mean an Phantom, Lightning, Starfighter, Buccaneer etc would certainly get the pulses racing somewhat more, something with balls!

Agreed. Buccaneer is probably the most realistic of those options (well aware of a Flying F-104 on the continent of course), but I suspect you'd need a VTST/RNHF type of organisation behind it.
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
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LN Strike Eagle
UKAR Staff

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby Russ on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:06 pm

Would be a massive long shot, but if it was a Buccaneer, it'd certainly get many peoples attention and interest. Vampire's are lovely, but they aren't unique as Steve says.
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Russ

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby borismorris on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 2:23 pm

Being a cup half full kind of fellow (or is that fool) I dream of the day when we have a solid representation of the British forces of yesteryear back in the skies.

I think at very least there should be flying examples of a Harrier, Phantom, Buccaneer and Lightning regardless of the hurdles and obstacles such types would present.

It won't be long before you can add the Tornado to that list either.

What I'd like to see and what can actually be achieved might be a million miles apart though.
borismorris

Re: UK Heritage Aviation Trust

Postby XP282 on Wed 29 Mar 2017, 4:49 pm

Hello Nigel / UKHAT_OFFICIAL,

I'm sorry to say but no... Your initial post has done nothing to alleviate my concerns or give any credibility to the project. You talk about having clear goals but I haven't seen them. To me it seems like the one and only goal is to buy whatever is available at the time, rather than setting out a clear strategy and pursuing the aircraft that best represents the trust. The UKHAT implies that the organisation (I refuse to call it a trust as it simply isn't) are looking to preserve UK aircraft yet they are now going after a Swiss Vampire.

Can you tell us some of the names behind the project? At the moment all we know is that people are being asked to a donate to a trust that isn't a trust, to buy a UK aircraft that has no connections to the UK, and the official contact is a guy called Nigel.

I honestly don't want to appear rude. It would be awesome if this project were to work out. I personally would love to see you go after the Canberra PR9 that is crying out for a new owner, but I'm sorry to say, in its current form, I won't be donating to UKHAT
XP282

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