strangelookingalien wrote:The danger that aircraft pose is so alarmingly small it is ridiculous. The only reason anyone makes a fuss about air accidents is because they are spectacular, in the true sense of the word. There are plenty of other horrendously dangerous things that go on every day with little regulation and no public outcry; I think its pretty pathetic that there's people on an aviation forum suggesting that classic aircraft are, in the grand scheme of things, dangerous. Shoreham was a freak event. It was horrible, but frankly it doesn't deserve the huge outcry it's garnered.
Exactly this, after all you are much more likely to be killed by an exploding muslim at a music event than by an aircraft at an air show, yet more draconian measures to avoid the virtually non existent danger of being killed by an aircraft have been taken in the name of health and safety, than will ever be taken to avoid people being blown to bits on the streets of Britain. Insanity.
Re:- Time to patch it up, and wheel it across to the museum. That's much too big a financial undertaking for an aeroplane that has no great resonance with the general public.
Is that really the best you can offer???
Firstly, we are all aware that it simply cannot compete with the Vulcan as a show stopper, but the fact is, the Vulcan is no more! Secondly, "most, if not all" aviation enthusiasts know what the Sea Vixen is and what an amazing and unique aircraft it is on the Air Show circuit. It's not all about the general public who have no interest in aviation and might only go to the free seaside shows!! Lastly, now the Vulcan is no more, surely the Sea Vixen is by far the most special and unique example of an ex British Military Jet on the UK display circuit??? We sadly cannot fly types like the Lightning, Buccaneer, etc for what are obvious reasons with regards to complex types. We loose the Sea Vixen then what are we actually left with? If the extremely professional team at Yeovilton have made the very tough decision to try and fix this special airframe after a great deal of thought and soul searching then let's support their hopes that they will once again get "Foxy" back where she belongs in the skies over Britain while there is still hope! Thy wouldn't have taken that decision lightly and certainly wouldn't have done so if they didn't think it was worth it having spent many hours around a table with "industry experts" and will have poured over all the data, health and safety wise verses cost etc. I would therefore suggest that between them they are the ones best placed, by far, to have reached the decision they have. Would you not agree?
It doesn't resonate with the public because it's not BIG enough size-wise or hype-wise either. As far as public support the only item I could see that would get the public support to the same levels as the Vulcan would be Concorde, other than that I don't think there is anything out there that would spark the publics interest and imagination enough. I love the Sea Vixen, it's a beast but i'd have to explain that to the wife as to why that would be. The Vulcan however is plainly obvious why it's a beast, the same would be true of Concorde, it's a distinctive size, shape and sound that set it apart.
Screechy wrote:As far as public support the only item I could see that would get the public support to the same levels as the Vulcan would be Concorde, other than that I don't think there is anything out there that would spark the publics interest and imagination enough.
Dan's really good at getting a threads moving and increasing hits on the Site with his Gruff one liners stirring up emotion!.
The Vulcan Thread and this are particularly entertaining to read and pass a bit of time at work!!
Keep up the good work.
I for one would be delighted to risk my life in watching another' Dangerous' Vixen display should I ever get the chance again. Possibly one of the Most Elegant Displays in the Circuit over the past few years. Like the Vulcan it will be missed.
All exciting aircraft to me but doubt Joe Public is going to be fussed with them too much. Neither are visible enough during a display, the Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section and the Phantom just won't be recognised as anything different at all by Joanna Public, nor the Lightning. Gotta be big! Concorde, Vulcan, B-29 etc ... and it's got to make some noise so the Airlander wouldn't cut it either
Screechy wrote:All exciting aircraft to me but doubt Joe Public is going to be fussed with them too much. Neither are visible enough during a display, the Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section and the Phantom just won't be recognised as anything different at all by Joanna Public, nor the Lightning. Gotta be big! Concorde, Vulcan, B-29 etc ... and it's got to make some noise so the Airlander wouldn't cut it either
"Running in from the left, ladies and gentlemen, is a sight not seen in these skies for decades. This is the English Electric Lightning, the RAF's last all-British fighter. The first air force machine to go faster than twice the speed of sound. The first to go supersonic in level flight. Defender of the UK's skies during the Cold War with the acceleration of a scalded cat. Here it comes now, and you might notice the cone of vapour around the fuselage. That's nothing to be concerned about. That means it is travelling close to the speed of sound. Here it is now. The Lightning!"
Screechy wrote:All exciting aircraft to me but doubt Joe Public is going to be fussed with them too much. Neither are visible enough during a display, the Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section and the Phantom just won't be recognised as anything different at all by Joanna Public, nor the Lightning. Gotta be big! Concorde, Vulcan, B-29 etc ... and it's got to make some noise so the Airlander wouldn't cut it either
"Running in from the left, ladies and gentlemen, is a sight not seen in these skies for decades. This is the English Electric Lightning, the RAF's last all-British fighter. The first air force machine to go faster than twice the speed of sound. The first to go supersonic in level flight. Defender of the UK's skies during the Cold War with the acceleration of a scalded cat. Here it comes now, and you might notice the cone of vapour around the fuselage. That's nothing to be concerned about. That means it is travelling close to the speed of sound. Here it is now. The Lightning!"
Yeah, who would want to hear that an airshow...
Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that
Mike wrote:Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.
I think at almost any airshow in the UK outside of Fairford and maybe Yeovilton, a noisy afterburning jet would create a great deal of interest these days, as hardly any are available anymore in the UK.
The fact it might be a shiny silver Lightning touted as "Britain's fastest ever aircraft, the only British supersonic blah-blah...etc" would stir up the Vulcanite type union flag wavers. The fact is its not going to happen any time soon anyway.
"Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section"
Yeah what a load of old rubbish can't see the point at all, Who on earth would be interested in the most successful combat proven revolutionary post war British combat aircraft.
Mike wrote:Pointy jet that makes a lot of noise. No different from a Typhoon to 90% of airshow goers.
Exactly
I think you're underestimating the audience a tad.
Is a Spitfire the same as a Tucano to 90% of airshow goers? Single-engined propeller aircraft flown by the RAF, what's the difference? History and the presentation of such.
Of course the Lightning doesn't have the same level of affection or knowledge with the public but how much did the Vulcan have? With the right PR and preparation a Lightning on the UK airshow circuit would be a massive draw. It might not happen, it probably won't. But it would be fantastic and it would not be the same as a Typhoon.
County1884 wrote:"Harrier spends most of its display time hovering in front of a limited crowd section"
Yeah what a load of old rubbish can't see the point at all, Who on earth would be interested in the most successful combat proven revolutionary post war British combat aircraft.
SHAR at Old Warden Fly Navy anyone?
It's NOT what the enthusiast thinks though its what the majority of the public think that i'm getting at. Would the general public who are walking the static line at RIAT even look up if there was a Harrier hovering over the centre point of the runway? A Vulcan however.. you can see that from everywhere and you know it's there too, that's what gets the PUBLIC imagination going. There seems to be a lack of being able to put yourself in anyones shoes but your own going on here. Lighting..fantastic... average punter not fussed, maybe if it's the first time they see something there is a bit more interest but for repeat interest it's got to be something BIG and unique
Screechy wrote:Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that
I'm not so sure about that. I've spoken to lots of people with no interest in aviation who, because they are above a certain age, remember Lightnings. I've spoken to a number of people who went to university in St Andrews who remembers them operating out of Leuchars. Others were taken to airshows as children and remember them that way. One guy I spoke to was in the ATC at school, and was taken on a tour of an airbase and saw them up close. I think there is some residual interest in them outside the enthusiast sphere.
Screechy wrote:Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that
I'm not so sure about that. I've spoken to lots of people with no interest in aviation who, because they are above a certain age, remember Lightnings. I've spoken to a number of people who went to university in St Andrews who remembers them operating out of Leuchars. Others were taken to airshows as children and remember them that way. One guy I spoke to was in the ATC at school, and was taken on a tour of an airbase and saw them up close. I think there is some residual interest in them outside the enthusiast sphere.
I came here to post the same thing but you've said it much better than I could.
I know a lot of people that remember Lightning displays over anything else, and these aren't enthusiasts.
The Harrier is arguably more famous than the Vulcan and has huge public appeal. People were swarming to the crowd line to see the Harrier too but of course now we have to call that the "Vulcan Effect", because no other aircraft could ever possibly do that to people.....
Screechy, do you honestly think a Harrier would be ignored at an airshow? Even RIAT.
We are not going to see a Lightning fly here in the UK. End of. Same applies to a Phantom - too complicated, too expensive.
However, in recent years we have seen a Sea Vixen display - it has been allowed by the CAA, achieved by the operator and loved by airshow goers. Yes, it has has had more than it's fair share of mishaps, but that goes with the territory.
Look at Sea Furies - hardly a complex aircraft compared with the jets above and we've seen TF956 destroyed, WG655 effcectively written off (I understand the now WG655 isn't quite all of the original WG655) plus VX281 having an extremely close shave in 2014 - in fact if that aircraft wasn't directly over Culdrose when the engine failure happened it would have been either a smoking hole in the ground or more likely ditched into Mounts Bay... But, no one talks about grounding Sea Furies permanently.
So rather than bicker on here, wouldn't it be good to have something positive to say about XP924 and all of the hard work the team have put into getting it and keeping it flying? Is that really too difficult to do?
Screechy wrote:Great for me and the enthusiast, but not going to be a big draw for those outside that
I'm not so sure about that. I've spoken to lots of people with no interest in aviation who, because they are above a certain age, remember Lightnings. I've spoken to a number of people who went to university in St Andrews who remembers them operating out of Leuchars. Others were taken to airshows as children and remember them that way. One guy I spoke to was in the ATC at school, and was taken on a tour of an airbase and saw them up close. I think there is some residual interest in them outside the enthusiast sphere.
I came here to post the same thing but you've said it much better than I could.
I know a lot of people that remember Lightning displays over anything else, and these aren't enthusiasts.
The Harrier is arguably more famous than the Vulcan and has huge public appeal. People were swarming to the crowd line to see the Harrier too but of course now we have to call that the "Vulcan Effect", because no other aircraft could ever possibly do that to people.....
Screechy, do you honestly think a Harrier would be ignored at an airshow? Even RIAT.
You're assuming, of course, that RIAT would book it.
G-CVIX wrote: Screechy, do you honestly think a Harrier would be ignored at an airshow? Even RIAT.
No I think it would be a great draw but mainly from the enthusiast and the more clued in public. These days the F35 can do the hover so it's no longer as unique as it once was (not that the F35 is a common display) Sure the Harrier was and still is a cool bit of kit and i'd love to see it again (in fact toying with going to a Spanish show in Sept just to do that) but did it stop the show to the extent that a Vulcan or Concord would and bring people through the door just to see it, not so sure. The Sea Vixen was a big draw for enthusiasts, I'm not so sure that the general public would be so bothered. We know the history, we know what it's done and what it's been through to get to this point. Joe public sees a noisy jet that looks a bit different but it's not going to make him turn up at an event exclusively to see it. Thats what the Vulcan did
My grandmother remembers seeing a Harrier display, circa 2000, at East Fortune. She mostly remembers the noise! She's not an aviation enthusiast by any means, but fast things and loud things leave their impression on people. I think I saw a Harrier display twice, and they were gone before I ever got a chance to see them again. I also remember the noise!
Actually the last time I saw my Grandmother she was talking about the first proper holiday she ever went on. She flew from Southend to Greece in a Viking (she remembered the spar running through the cabin) with several stops along the way. At one point they apparently passed near enough to Vesuvius to peer down into the crater. The whole flight sounded like a hairy operation, not improved when I discovered the total number of Viking losses (about 30% of all built).
NickB - you'll see a Phantom (2 I believe) flying in the UK in a little under week.
Must agree with Dan about RIAT. For whatever reason, the Sea Vixen hasn't appeared since (briefly) 2009. Likewise there has been the potential for the Swedish Historic Flight's aircraft (prior to any regulatory changes) but they've never been booked.
So there's no given that a Harrier would be booked by RIAT. Perhaps especially because the possibility still exists to tempt an operational one to the show, a la the Spanish Matador at Farnborough a few years ago.
RIAT does see its fair share of static classic jets though (Hunter, JP/Strikemaster, Magister, Canberra, Meteor have all appeared in recent years - or will this - plus of course operational Phantoms from the continent which would be deemed classic jets if UK based) with the occasional stellar flying example (the Meteor in (?) 2013 for example, as well as '558). The Norwegian Vampires are a regular sight elsewhere too.
But someone needs perhaps to admit that the risk in taking on such a project is so huge as to be questionable I think.
Buy the sky and sell the sky and lift your arms up to the sky and ask the sky"
CJS wrote:NickB - you'll see a Phantom (2 I believe) flying in the UK in a little under week.
I was of course referring a Phantom operated for display purposes only... not a military operated example.
Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see one flying, but it ain't gonna happen.
I'm not sure a Harrier would be allowed by the CAA either - not a great safety record in service and single engined only - when that Pegasus goes 'pop' the Harrier has a serious sink rate...