Sea Vixen XP924 Thread

[borismorris]

I appreciate the thread has moved on a bit but just to return to the Lightning point..

I was maybe 6-7 years old when I first saw a Lightning take off on a sunny day at RAF Valley.. That sound, that pointy nose. The sight of two afterburners - one on top of the other. That moment when suddenly it pulled up into the vertical and revealed that swept wing geometry and that climb which didnt stop until it was a mere speck in the blue sky.

That moment is etched on my subconscious.

Many years later, when I first saw the Lightning in the Cold War museum in Cosford in its glorious vertical position I nearly bit through my lip to prevent my 40 year old self bursting in to tears of joy.

I frequently saw the same effect on grown men with the Vulcan and I genuinely believe that in the pigs might fly chance that a Lightning were to fly in the UK again it would undoubtebly have THAT effect on a whole new generation..

Its an absolute travesty that youngsters today may never get the chance.

[CJS]

I appreciate the thread has moved on a bit but just to return to the Lightning point..

I was maybe 6-7 years old when I first saw a Lightning take off on a sunny day at RAF Valley.. That sound, that pointy nose. The sight of two afterburners - one on top of the other. That moment when suddenly it pulled up into the vertical and revealed that swept wing geometry and that climb which didnt stop until it was a mere speck in the blue sky.

That moment is etched on my subconscious.

Many years later, when I first saw the Lightning in the Cold War museum in Cosford in its glorious vertical position I nearly bit through my lip to prevent my 40 year old self bursting in to tears of joy.

I frequently saw the same effect on grown men with the Vulcan and I genuinely believe that in the pigs might fly chance that a Lightning were to fly in the UK again it would undoubtebly have THAT effect on a whole new generation..

Its an absolute travesty that youngsters today may never get the chance.

Really?

I wonder, has there always been this level of sentimentality about aircraft that we used to see and now don't? Will we feel the same when the Tornado stops flying? Why don't we get quite so misty eyed about seeing Hunters, Strikemasters, Vampires or Meteors? Is it because we genuinely miss the Lightning, Harrier, Phantom more, or is it precisely because we don't see them any more that we so yearn to do so again?

Did the Vulcan and Sea Vixen (should that be does for the SV) get us all rose tinted because they were (are??) the only ones of their type still flying?

Just interesting (to me anyway) when you consider what classic jets there are still appearing at airshows, yet so many people fawn over one that will (almost certainly) never fly again, one that we hope will but now may not, and a whole bunch that (let's be realistic here) never will again in the UK.

RIAT this year has (at least) a Magister, JP, Bronco (not a jet I know, but in the same bracket heritage wise), Strikemaster and was going to have a Hunter, so there are plenty that fit the classic jet bracket, yet they are (to all intents and purposes) ignored. Bur if it was the last Strikemaster, the only Magister - would that make them suddenly more desirable?

I the answers, I'm just interested in what people think...

[FGR2]

The Lightning is a Cold War icon, and would have some wider pull with the public, but is apparently difficult to maintain. In-flight fires were always a problem, even with the experience of years of RAF operations and British Aerospace support.

The tragic accident in South Africa just underlined how quickly things can escalate with the Lightning. That is why we will never see one flying here.

The only aircraft with a hope of getting in the air from the 1960s era is the Canberra PR9. No one seems interested in buying it though, which is a shame as the Canberra is historically a very significant aircraft

[borismorris]

I can only speak for myself of course.. but for me the Lightning just has Wow factor.
It looks different to mostly anything else you see (did see) at UK airshows.. it did things that most other aircraft didnt and its a shiny beast to boot.

The Lightning (in the same way as the Sea Vixen) stands out from crowd visually. It also happens to be a bloomin loud un.

[Dan O'Hagan]

Jets of 1950s/60s vintage have a soul and a character which modern aircraft can't match. Typhoons, F-22s and F-35s look what they are, computer designed lumps. A Hunter or a Lightning looks like it was designed and built by craftsmen, in the same way an E-Type Jaguar gets the pulse racing more than a modern car of the same marque.

This, and of course nostalgia, is why people want to see these types back in the air.

It won't happen though, at least not in the UK. Not since you-know-who at you-know-where. Before that, I thought a Buccaneer was realistic, now we should just be grateful a couple of wafty Jet Provosts are still active.

[DerekF]

It is unlikely permission would be granted to fly a Lightning in the UK. The Lightning may have been "iconic" and had "character", whatever they might mean but it also had a terrible safety record in RAF service. Something that is unlikely to be improved by being out of service for nearly 30 years. While it would be great to see one flying again, it will take an accountable manager with considerable "cojones" to sign that one off.

The Sea Vixen may not have a much public recognition but as far as I was concerned it had a reputation simply not appearing when promised. If its regular reliability problems are indicative of operating cold-war jets then it is going to take an awful lot of money and effort to get anything similar in the air again.

With the modern regulatory structure and risk averse nature of duty holders it's a miracle a brand new aircraft ever flies far less a vintage one.

[Cole]

The Lightning is a Cold War icon, and would have some wider pull with the public, but is apparently difficult to maintain. In-flight fires were always a problem, even with the experience of years of RAF operations and British Aerospace support.

The tragic accident in South Africa just underlined how quickly things can escalate with the Lightning. That is why we will never see one flying here.

The only aircraft with a hope of getting in the air from the 1960s era is the Canberra PR9. No one seems interested in buying it though, which is a shame as the Canberra is historically a very significant aircraft

"Ownership was transferred to Kemble Airfield Estates in September 2016." - Britishairshows.com
Don't know if that helps?

[Adie1980]

Jets of 1950s/60s vintage have a soul and a character which modern aircraft can't match. Typhoons, F-22s and F-35s look what they are, computer designed lumps. A Hunter or a Lightning looks like it was designed and built by craftsmen, in the same way an E-Type Jaguar gets the pulse racing more than a modern car of the same marque.

This, and of course nostalgia, is why people want to see these types back in the air.

It won't happen though, at least not in the UK. Not since you-know-who at you-know-where. Before that, I thought a Buccaneer was realistic, now we should just be grateful a couple of wafty Jet Provosts are still active.

Whilst I agree on a certain level regarding modern jet fighters, I have to disagree with your point when it comes to the French Rafale.
That is a beautifully sculpted machine with plenty of character, in my opinion.

[Dan O'Hagan]

I don't believe I mentioned the Rafale, which as anyone can see is a beautiful aeroplane. However, the point remains for the bulk of western modern military aircraft - soulless and dull. See the ghastly Gripen for example.

[Thumper]

It's a sad end to the mighty Sea Vixen but I think it needs to be just that, an end, with dignity (so to speak). I for one cannot take yet another year of "we need your money" for an aircraft again. The Sea Vixen was a great aircraft to watch, the pilot flew her fantastically, I will always remember the Sea Vixen Enthusiasts Day at Yeovilton, the pilot chucked that hoofing great plane around like it was a Gnat.

I've seen some of the best aircraft in the air in my lifetime from Lightnings to the Vulcan, Phantoms to the Jaguar and the Harrier to Concorde. Times have changed, I will quote DanO because it is a valid point, vintage jets are indeed considered toxic, by the gutter press, the CAA and some public. It's probably time for the FNHT (or Navy Wings) to concentrate preserving the Swordfish, Sea Fury, Chipmunk etc before they become far too "dangerous", it was only a few weeks ago that Navy Wings were asking for money to get the Sea Vixen in the air, they struggled to raise £150,000 for that (current total at £24,320) they won't be raising £2-3m anytime soon. With a Sea Hawk sat there waiting for their attention and funds I think that is the far better move forwards.

[MicrolightDriver]

I hope the Sea Vixen is restored and flies again at UK airshows. I think it would show a horrible lack of ambition to give up on such a marvellous aircraft prematurely and before it's actually proven to be too difficult! Sometimes I think 'realism' is a convenient cloak for apathy and idleness.

Navy Wings' statement seems to show an awareness that 'crowd-funding' is not the answer for the Sea Vixen this time, so either they'll get their 'White Knight' or not. That they wouldn't at least try, and simply accept 'defeat' without a fight, would seem rather pathetic.

[DonaldGrump]

I hope the Sea Vixen is restored and flies again at UK airshows. I think it would show a horrible lack of ambition to give up on such a marvellous aircraft prematurely and before it's actually proven to be too difficult! Sometimes I think 'realism' is a convenient cloak for apathy and idleness.

Navy Wings' statement seems to show an awareness that 'crowd-funding' is not the answer for the Sea Vixen this time, so either they'll get their 'White Knight' or not. That they wouldn't at least try, and simply accept 'defeat' without a fight, would seem rather pathetic.

Wise words amidst the avalanche of doom defeatism and utter nonsense.

[VIGILANTERA5C]

I also wish to see it return to flight , however to offer it up to a" White night" potential of a repaint job , Similar to what it had under sponsorship in the past would be tantamount to vandalism
imho.

A beautiful Machine in an awesome scheme that deserves to be in the air .

What is it with RN Historic ac ?, how many times I have been to shows waiting to see the Sea hawk fly , or a Swordfish or 2 fly or a Sea Fury only to hear the announcement sorry , us. re build went on a bit etc , etc, over the past 20 years and more I am talking about here . Now we have the Saga Of the Sea Vixen to add to that list , Tragic , even if we were blessed with many other vintage jets , which we are not , simply tragic . Burned into my Memory as it Burned into the Runway .
Remember one display years back in the Rain in Brady , how the pilot could even see outside the windscreen I do not know and he still threw it about , Please put it Back Up.

[HeyfordDave111]

If Mr Branson or Mr Dyson want their name on this aircraft and it painted in lime green for, say, 2 years for the pleasure of paying for the repairs, then that's perfectly fine by me.

It means the aircraft stays airworthy for years to come, and basically that's all that really matters.

[VIGILANTERA5C]

Lime Green would be , like , Trek Mountain bike Sponsorship.

Red , Silver , Blue and Yellow even in the Austrian Alps and I saw it there myself ,no thanks .

Branson , say red and White , could work , as for Mr Dyson , not sure what company colours he would wish for , let me check , now where's my Dyson gone ?, had it in my hand an hour ago ? bloody thing.

[Offbreed]

Cillit Bang purple and orange for the win

[VIGILANTERA5C]

Classic. lol.

[Darren50]

It is not so long ago, that I would go to airshows just as a member of the public as my wife dragged me along to the likes of Mildenhall as well as Clacton and Southend. As someone who had limited knowledge or interest in aircraft, I must say that I remember the sea vixen , I think it was in Red Bull colours, but to me it was only different because it was a plane with a spoiler. As far as notable aircraft from a general public point of view, obviously the B2 or F117 because they were futuristic. The Harrier, I thought was boring because it was common ( how times change) but the one I always looked forward to was the Jaguar. Now that I have more interest, it is only now apparent the the stuff I took no real interest in is no longer flying.

[Alanko]

What is it with RN Historic ac ?, how many times I have been to shows waiting to see the Sea hawk fly , or a Swordfish or 2 fly or a Sea Fury only to hear the announcement sorry , us. re build went on a bit etc , etc, over the past 20 years and more I am talking about here . Now we have the Saga Of the Sea Vixen to add to that list , Tragic , even if we were blessed with many other vintage jets , which we are not , simply tragic . Burned into my Memory as it Burned into the Runway .
Remember one display years back in the Rain in Brady , how the pilot could even see outside the windscreen I do not know and he still threw it about , Please put it Back Up.

I could complain about the number of no-shows from the BBMF Lancaster in Scotland over the last couple of years, but I understand this is simply the nature of old machines. Especially so in anything as complex as fast jets. When they built Sea Hawks, Sea Furies etc they weren't forecasting for them to still be used in any capacity in 2017, so these things are being kept alive well beyond their shelf-life (as is the Lanc). I don't think it is an RNHF issue as much as an 'old aircraft' phenomenon, shared by operators of any historic transport.

[Reds Rolling]

Cillit Bang purple and orange for the win

Bang, and the outboard fuel tanks are gone!

Seriously though, what a shame to hear that the Vixen is so badly damaged and needs a very serious amount of cash to repair, and I fear in the current climate it'll never fly again.

Really hope to be proven wrong though.

[Dan O'Hagan]

Another update. Sounds quite pessimistic as I read it:

https://www.navywings.org.uk/news-blog/sea-vixen-update-25th-july-2017/

[Mike]

An interesting juxtaposition of information in that statement.

"Something broke"
"Something that should have saved the aeroplane when the first thing broke...also broke"
"We've sent the chief engineer off to retirement"

[Alanko]

An interesting juxtaposition of information in that statement.

The Chief Engineer is staying on in a consultancy role, and they have a new Chief Engineer.

To quote:

Brian Johnson, the Chief Engineer, who was due to retire from the Team in November to work nearer his home in the Midlands, remains on as a consultant, but hands over the role of Chief Engineer to Kevin Bugg.

If anything it seems a bit 'belt 'n' braces' for an aircraft that may never fly again; keep a chief engineer and a consultant on the payroll when one was only required for keeping the thing in the air.

[capercaillie]

Sounds very much like an obituary to the Vixen, please donate to the Sea Fury and Swordfish as we haven't a cat in hell's chance of the target set.

[Mike]

Their problems seem to run far deeper than just funding. They've already had half a million quid of LIBOR fine money specifically to sort the Pegasus engines, plus I understand some of the new parts were also paid for by an outside donor on top of this, and have utterly failed to solve the issues. They have a hangar full of broken aeroplanes, and at their recent event at Old Warden were unable to field anything more than a single Chipmunk. Very sad to see how far the RNHF have fallen from their heyday in the 80s where they were regularly able to field multiple aircraft almost every weekend in the summer months.