RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Tommy on Sat 30 Dec 2017, 10:21 pm

Just stumbled across a FB post which seems to contain more shots of the (tragic) "restoration":

The actual post wont copy across here (I could just be a bit thick - I've had a long day), but it's found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/5991177 ... nref=story






"original condition"

:-X :-X :-X

Might just move this thread to the "Modelling" sub-forum...
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby ArabJazzie on Sat 30 Dec 2017, 10:34 pm

Tommy wrote:Just stumbled across a FB post which seems to contain more shots of the (tragic) "restoration":



Might just move this thread to the "Modelling" sub-forum...


Is that what you really think of us! :mad: :grin:

I think at least 2 of us in the modelling section would have a good crack at getting a nice flyer out of that one!
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Tommy on Sat 30 Dec 2017, 10:41 pm

ArabJazzie wrote:
Tommy wrote:Just stumbled across a FB post which seems to contain more shots of the (tragic) "restoration":



Might just move this thread to the "Modelling" sub-forum...


Is that what you really think of us! :mad: :grin:


Profuse apologies - I'll have to move it to the "Modelling" sub-forum and entitle the thread "how *not* to do it - a guide for beginners".
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 1:47 am

Tommy wrote:Just stumbled across a FB post which seems to contain more shots of the (tragic) "restoration":

The actual post wont copy across here (I could just be a bit thick - I've had a long day), but it's found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/5991177 ... nref=story






"original condition"

:-X :-X :-X

Might just move this thread to the "Modelling" sub-forum...


That's the picture I saw. It is nothing short of a monstrosity. Putting the utterly horrific markings to one side, just look at the state of the landing gear. The tailwheel looks straight off a family hatchback.

There've been some crimes against historic airframes in the past, (many of which the RAFM have been complicit in - the destruction of both their Beverley at Hendon and the last remaining Vulcan B.1 at Cosford to name a couple), but this defiling of a unique time-capsule airframe by ham-fisted amateurs perhaps tops the lot. And if indeed a Spitfire has gone missing as part of the grubby deal, then those responsible need bringing to account.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 4:23 am

Whinge about the airframe as much as you want, but the greatest offence is that from the photos featured there appears to be no mention whatsoever about the pilot or his fate.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Wissam24 on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 9:55 am

I agree with brevet. It's a bad restoration, but they've given it a prominent positions and it evidently has had a lot of work put into it at a time when I expect they don't have a whole lot of cash. But that there's no context given is a real shame
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby keithjs on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 11:10 am

What an absolute disgrace..! :sad: At least they could have finished it with the correct markings... It can't be that difficult surely? :dunno: Such a shame... :down:
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 12:50 pm

Totally agree with the above ......but........ what about the spitfire?
You can’t just ‘lose’ one.

Where is it now? Who is responsible? What’s happening with it?

Anyone?
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 6:58 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:Totally agree with the above ......but........ what about the spitfire?
You can’t just ‘lose’ one.

Where is it now? Who is responsible? What’s happening with it?

Anyone?


It must be with Kennet. It's not lost, just isn't "our" property anymore.

As for the "restoration" - never let me near any Egyptian Air Force aircraft then. :shock:
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 7:54 pm

But of course it’s our property.

We own it until the deal is completed. Simples.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby The Baron on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 8:22 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:Whinge about the airframe as much as you want, but the greatest offence is that from the photos featured there appears to be no mention whatsoever about the pilot or his fate.


Surely the airframe itself is the best memorial to Denis Copping? From where I'm sitting the Egyptians have basically vandalised his memorial. The fact there's no mention of him just adds insult to injury.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Hammy on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 8:45 pm

HeyfordDave111 wrote:What about the spitfire?
Where is it now?
Who is responsible?
What’s happening with it?
Anyone?


1. See the below.
2. As of September 2013, it was stored alongside Seafire Mk.46 LA564 at North Weald, see below image.

Image
Image: Richard Crockett

3. Presumably, it is still in the care of Kennet Aviation unless it has been sold and its new owner has had it moved to another location.
4. That's a very good question, it's likely that it's still stored at North Weald.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Brevet Cable on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 11:27 pm

The Baron wrote:Surely the airframe itself is the best memorial to Denis Copping? From where I'm sitting the Egyptians have basically vandalised his memorial. The fact there's no mention of him just adds insult to injury.

It's only a memorial to him if the accompanying bumf mentioned him....it doesn't.
In my opinion they could have painted it in the proper scheme or even left it as-is, but without making reference to him 99% or more of those who ever get to see the airframe wouldn't have a clue.




As for the Spitfire traded to Kennet Aviation in payment for the recovery of the P-40.......from posts on the Flypast forum, apparently that's a non-story as KA complied with and completed every part of the recovery process they were contracted for.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Mon 01 Jan 2018, 11:41 am

Brevet Cable wrote:.......from posts on the Flypast forum


All 80! pages of it, they seem to be going pretty ape about the whole situation, while I think possibly forgetting that it is safe where it is now, away from looters or scrap merchants or indeed the so called black market, but on that forum saying the slightest wrong thing gets a lifetime ban!

Personaly I think that more items will be found, Egypt and indeed Africa is a vast place, with plenty of places for long forgotten war materials to hide....
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby wezgulf3 on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 1:37 pm

Looks like the guy who took the pictures thinks they did "Great Restoration"

Image

Wes...
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:08 pm

From posts on the Flypast forum, the Daily Mail is now on the case : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5231593/Egyptians-World-War-II-RAF-Kittyhawk-plane-makeover.html#ixzz53914dkOk

And the comments on the article say it all. :facepalm:
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 10:32 am

Egypt giving us the finger
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 11:45 am

So, if I understand this properly.

The P40 was found, and the RAFM wanted it, and brokered a deal in which the P40 was recovered but not to the UK, and in payment was a spitfire?

Sorry but more questions than answers here....... how much was the recovery costs across Egypt to where it ended up?

Was there a permission to export to the UK in place?
How much is a spitfire worth nowadays?

Why wasn’t the contract to include transport to Hendon / Cosford?

Who was responsible for this ‘deal’? And why haven’t we all been told the full story about this which should cover answers to these questions?

Lastly, if it was a “horlicks” like it seems to me, due to an insufficient contract weighted in K.A.’s favour (i’m Not blaming K.A. Here as they apparently have been paid for their contracted work with the agreed fee), then who’s head’s are rolling for this? If not why not, and if they have left the RAFM (and I doubt all concerned haven’t) why aren’t we chasing them for gross misconduct?

Was a damaged piece of history worth a spitfire in exchange? What were the Egyptians getting out of this? If nothing, then you could have bet your bottom dollar that the P40 wouldn’t have gone anywhere!

And again, whatever happens, it’s shameful that the pilot isn’t commemorated at all on the plinth the badly made airfix kit now stands.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 5:19 pm

This post over on the flypast forum is worth a read

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthr ... ost2425576
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Tommy on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 1:11 pm

Thanks to IanG for spotting this, another video relevant showing the recovery of the "Kitty Hawaak".

In places it looks astonishingly well-preserved underneath the wing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8jVroC820&t=5s
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby keithjs on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 2:43 pm

Tommy wrote:Thanks to IanG for spotting this, another video relevant showing the recovery of the "Kitty Hawaak".

In places it looks astonishingly well-preserved underneath the wing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov8jVroC820&t=5s


Very interesting video, such a shame it looks like it does now... :sad: And, from a personal point of view (although I doubt if he'd remember me) I know one of the guys on the clip too.....
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby JJC on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 6:31 pm

For all intents and purposes, it would have been better left where it was.

A shambles, a national disgrace and a travesty however you look it. And most egregious of all - the desecration of what is essentially a war grave by the Egyptian authorities.

Truly disgraceful.
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 10:54 pm

JJC wrote:For all intents and purposes, it would have been better left where it was.


Nope, nothing would be left of it by now, souvenier hunters had already started on it before it was recovered
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Re: RAF P-40 found in the Sahara???

Postby AFKAMC on Fri 12 Jan 2018, 11:22 am

JJC wrote:And most egregious of all - the desecration of what is essentially a war grave by the Egyptian authorities.


Was the wreck itself a war grave, though? Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_grave) suggests that military aircraft are only classed as war graves if they crashed in water; “this is particularly true if crewmen perished inside the vehicle.” Neither applies in this case.

The UK Government (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/aviation-archaeology) has this to say: “All military aircraft crash sites in the United Kingdom, its territorial waters, or British aircraft in international waters, are controlled sites under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986.” and “Outside the United Kingdom, international or British territorial waters, the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 does not apply. Excavations of crash sites of British aircraft are be subject to the laws of the country concerned. However, MOD policy is to discourage disturbance of such sites unless necessary in respect of host government approved activities, like land reclamation or construction.”

It seems to me that the RAF museum actively encouraged and facilitated disturbance of the site, because they wanted to recover the aircraft. So I don’t see how the Egyptians can be blamed on this score.

I believe from what I’ve read elsewhere that human remains were located in the vicinity, but after investigation were deemed not to be those of the pilot. If this is the case, then surely the pilot, sadly, has no known grave?

So I don’t see any desecration having taken place.
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