This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby Mooshie1956 on Mon 12 Feb 2018, 9:02 pm

I didn't know that Parakeets would cause so much controversy. Springwatch picked this photo of mine to go on there social media sites. Some love them but it's also been used to highlight that they should be culled. What are the thoughts of people here. Personally I love them.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby FarnboroJohn on Mon 12 Feb 2018, 10:01 pm

I haven't looked in detail at the evidence but they are implicated in the declines of various hole-nesting native species. If that is indeed the case then yes, they should be done away with.

Have to admit I enjoy seeing them though.

Congratulations on making Springwatch FB page!

John
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Mon 12 Feb 2018, 10:22 pm

Yeah, as is the case with most introduced/invasive species that thrive, they thrive at the expense of native species. If both can't co-exist you forced to choose one or the other, and as pretty as Ring Necked Parakeets are...

Nice shot though!
its time to kick the tyres and light the fires

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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby boff180 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 8:13 am

Nice shot.

As with Grey Squirrels, if they are non-native and Human introduced.... in the words of the Emperor.... wipe them out, all of them.

Are Parakeets now on the Defra licence? If so they're fair game to hunt.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby boff180 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 8:21 am

Edit:

This licence allows you to kill/capture the following bird species in order to protect other wild birds....
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... n-purposes

Although as a caveat, people need to read up on the law regarding hunting with air rifles/shotguns/firearms in the UK - the most common forms of hunting species on this licence... each type of gun has its own set of rules/laws.

•feral pigeon
•crow
•collared dove
•lesser black-backed gull
•jackdaw
•jay
•magpie
•rook
•woodpigeon
•Canada goose
•monk parakeet
•ring-necked parakeet
•Egyptian goose
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby capercaillie on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 9:10 am

Yes the lethal Collared Dove and insectivorous Rook among them.

Nothing among that list on there purely to gain favour from big rich landowners with gameshoots to protect "their" non-native released birds at all. I'm surprised they haven't managed to get those other pests like Hen Harrier and Peregrine on the list as well. :whistle:
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby boff180 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 10:32 am

capercaillie wrote:Yes the lethal Collared Dove and insectivorous Rook among them.

Nothing among that list on there purely to gain favour from big rich landowners with gameshoots to protect "their" non-native released birds at all. I'm surprised they haven't managed to get those other pests like Hen Harrier and Peregrine on the list as well. :whistle:


There are multiple general licences, conservation is just one of them.... disease prevention, protections of livestock/crops/fisheries.etc, public H&S

Both the species you flag are known for causing significant damage to cereal crops and therefore have been declared as pest species for that very reason. Due to little peculiarities in law, flying pest species can only be dealt with via a general licence where as no such licence is required for ground based pests (Rat, Grey Squirrel.etc).
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby capercaillie on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:10 am

:lmao: :lmao: OK, as you wish.

I must say the vast flocks of Collared Doves I see stripping cereal crops always worry and scare me. Doesn't happen by the way. They are far more likely either picking loose grain spill around or eating weed seeds around the edges of fields as most Streptopelia species do.

And the Rooks in the fields removing the leatherjacket grubs that would eat the crops roots, not useful at all.

The only reason we need conservation is because we interfere, we carry species around, by purpose or by accident and then we try to clear up our wrongdoing. If we left it alone in the first place, it would all find its own naturalised balance. Naturally native species such as all the corvids on the list, Collared Dove, Woodpigeon would find their own balance.

Then on the other hand despite it being absolutely illegal to introduce any non native species into the countryside, we have millions of non native Pheasant and Red-legged Partridge released every autumn to be blasted apart or cause road accidents.

DEFRA and its licencing is a joke, they issue permits on our rivers to have numbers of Goosanders and Cormorants shot, as they dare to eat "our" fish, surprisingly their natural diet, in their natural environment. Locally we have even had applications for Buzzards to be culled as they eat birds. They say its all for the vulnerable species but you could also read that as "pheasants and partridges", despite the fact that most of the ones they eat would be roadkill!
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby FarnboroJohn on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:51 am

capercaillie wrote::lmao: :lmao: OK, as you wish.

I must say the vast flocks of Collared Doves I see stripping cereal crops always worry and scare me. Doesn't happen by the way. They are far more likely either picking loose grain spill around or eating weed seeds around the edges of fields as most Streptopelia species do.

And the Rooks in the fields removing the leatherjacket grubs that would eat the crops roots, not useful at all.

The only reason we need conservation is because we interfere, we carry species around, by purpose or by accident and then we try to clear up our wrongdoing. If we left it alone in the first place, it would all find its own naturalised balance. Naturally native species such as all the corvids on the list, Collared Dove, Woodpigeon would find their own balance.

Then on the other hand despite it being absolutely illegal to introduce any non native species into the countryside, we have millions of non native Pheasant and Red-legged Partridge released every autumn to be blasted apart or cause road accidents.

DEFRA and its licencing is a joke, they issue permits on our rivers to have numbers of Goosanders and Cormorants shot, as they dare to eat "our" fish, surprisingly their natural diet, in their natural environment. Locally we have even had applications for Buzzards to be culled as they eat birds. They say its all for the vulnerable species but you could also read that as "pheasants and partridges", despite the fact that most of the ones they eat would be roadkill!


What he said. The real problem invasive alien species is H. sapiens , probably the worst misnomer in the Linnaean catalogue.

John
Last edited by FarnboroJohn on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby boff180 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:53 pm

Rooks don't just eat inspects, they eat cereal crops too - it's part of their primary diet and - particularly in planting season - damage crops particularly when they feed in large groups near Rookeries. Spring crops appear to be hit the worst to the point farmers look for proactive means to protect their fields, not just hunting to keep numbers down.

I'm not talking about protecting game birds - that is a completely different matter.

I'm talking about protecting crops from species declared by the government and experts in the industry (sorry Caper, but they know more than you on this) to be a problem. Some are native growing out of control due to mans previous interactions/evolving in response - others are introduced. Take Mink for example - not native to the UK, has been released in to the wild by activists trying to save them and they are now systematically destroying native species that some ecosystems rely on. Should we leave them be or should we do something about it?
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby Airwolfhound on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:27 pm

Personally I'd say leave them be. Nature has a habit of controlling itself. Man is the problem on this planet and the sooner something wipes out everyone on Earth the better :wink:
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby capercaillie on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:35 pm

boff180 wrote:Rooks don't just eat inspects, they eat cereal crops too - it's part of their primary diet and - particularly in planting season - damage crops particularly when they feed in large groups near Rookeries. Spring crops appear to be hit the worst to the point farmers look for proactive means to protect their fields, not just hunting to keep numbers down.

I'm not talking about protecting game birds - that is a completely different matter.

I'm talking about protecting crops from species declared by the government and experts in the industry (sorry Caper, but they know more than you on this) to be a problem. Some are native growing out of control due to mans previous interactions/evolving in response - others are introduced. Take Mink for example - not native to the UK, has been released in to the wild by activists trying to save them and they are now systematically destroying native species that some ecosystems rely on. Should we leave them be or should we do something about it?


Where did the Mink suddenly appear from on the list you gave? Where did I say non native species haven't caused problems or perhaps you've misread something.
Yes - Grey Squirrel, Brown Rat, Black Rat, House Mouse, Rabbit, American Mink, Sika Deer, Muntjac, Chinese Water Deer, Canada Goose, Ruddy Duck, Ring-necked Parakeet, etc etc, all introduced and all problematic. Look at the destruction Stoats, rats and cats have all caused in New Zealand to the native flightless birds after man brought them in.

As for your experts in the government and industry, that's your opinion which you are entitled to, but believe me you can pay anyone to come up with statistics to satisfy certain influential groups for money and votes. If your are too naïve to not believe that, I'm wasting my efforts here. Why do you think with a Tory Government in power we suddenly have the utterly pointless badger culling exercise going on to please the farmers voting for them, while hardly any testing of the dead animals to see if they have the disease happens. Why - because the results on the dead badgers wouldn't actually support any justification for the mass killing at all. Bovine TB, there is a clue in the name as to where the problem really exists and rather than spending huge sums on eradicating native wildlife, spending huge sums on research into how to stop it may be a better idea.

Exactly the same with Rooks, more than 80% of their diet is insects and larvae. The other 20% is rubbish and discarded chips from the spotter's car park at Coningsby. Try watching them. Don't believe all the justifying literature they produce. :wink:
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:59 pm

Nice to see some healthy debate going on, and thanks for the couple of comments re photo.
As has been said, I feel it's mans fault that they are now in the wild and should be left alone, it seems we like to just get rid of problems we make the easy way. I can understand the reasoning for a cull and I wouldn't go fruit loop if one was done, as, I have seen locally how these Parakeets have displaced the local population of Greater Spotted Woodpeckers.
I was surprised to see the list that Boff put up with what is actually on there. I had heard about the Canada Goose but I had always thought that to be a migratory bird.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby capercaillie on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 2:17 pm

My apologies Mooshie, nice pic :up: Not too many around these parts luckily.

Canada Goose was introduced, originally in the late 17th century, since then they've spread all over, bullying many waterbirds off potential nest sites. Not popular with wildfowlers as they're not good to eat.

Some migrants probably do occur across the Atlantic each year, certainly of the smaller and recently split as a full species Cackling Goose, but with so many Canadas in situ, unless a ringed bird from the Americas occurs it would be difficult to be sure.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby FarnboroJohn on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:12 pm

capercaillie wrote:My apologies Mooshie, nice pic :up: Not too many around these parts luckily.

Canada Goose was introduced, originally in the late 17th century, since then they've spread all over, bullying many waterbirds off potential nest sites. Not popular with wildfowlers as they're not good to eat.

Some migrants probably do occur across the Atlantic each year, certainly of the smaller and recently split as a full species Cackling Goose, but with so many Canadas in situ, unless a ringed bird from the Americas occurs it would be difficult to be sure.


Years ago I saw two parvipes race birds in Aberdeenshire that had Maryland neck rings on, before wildfowlers got both of them. Wild Cackling Geese and smaller races of Greater Canada Goose occur annually (Islay is a top spot for them, with Barnacle Geese the carrier species, but occasionally they join up with Pinkfeet and get elsewhere). Obviously atlantis Greater Canadas (the same as our introduced birds) would be impossible to pick up without additional evidence such as rings.

It's important to differentiate between natural colonisation (e.g. Collared Dove) and deliberate/accidental introduction by man (e.g Canada Goose and Ring-necked Parakeet respectively). The former is a natural event requiring no compensatory action by man beyond what is determined by the authorities to be needed for commercial purposes (if you believe that is morally justifiable); but with either of the other cases being likely (and indeed normally provably) deleterious to the native ecosystem, extirpation is actually the only moral course.

However, with Britain's patchwork ecology one size, as ever, doesn't fit all: many food chains/webs these days depend to a greater or lesser extent on introduced animals. Try to imagine the countryside without Rabbits to crop grasses and to feed Buzzards, Foxes, Stoats, Polecats and other native predators and one ends up very quickly getting very worried. Which means that even for introduced animals culling must be considered case-by-case and not as a blanket policy.

John
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby AlexC on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:00 pm

On a visit last year to my parents old friends in south-east London it was very obvious that parakeets had recently found their way there. I'd be very reluctant personally to harm them or any other introduced birds/animals save gray squirrels perhaps. Although not introduced, but very much persecuted, we have a pair of carrion crows (Russell and Sheryl!) around that our next door neighbour has been feeding for the last three years or so and loves, that I am often amazed at regarding their intelligence. There's no way that I could harm them, and anyway Jean next door would probably kill me if I did!
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby aceyone on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 1:59 pm

AlexC wrote:On a visit last year to my parents old friends in south-east London it was very obvious that parakeets had recently found their way there. I'd be very reluctant personally to harm them or any other introduced birds/animals save gray squirrels perhaps. Although not introduced, but very much persecuted, we have a pair of carrion crows (Russell and Sheryl!) around that our next door neighbour has been feeding for the last three years or so and loves, that I am often amazed at regarding their intelligence. There's no way that I could harm them, and anyway Jean next door would probably kill me if I did!


Erm I think you'll find that the birds have been there since at least 1977 in fact I believe they originated from there when
a freight train derailed between Mottingham and Lee stations ,the loco rolled down an embankment and demolished an aviary in someone's back garden containing said birds,soon afterwards a colony took to roosting in Poplar trees between
Grove Park and Sundridge Park stations and a years or later there was another colony in Hither Green Cemetery !
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby AlexC on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:31 pm

That is really rather interesting as I actually come from Lee (and had lots of friends in Mottingham, drank at the Porcupine Pub ('Porky') regularly) and although I moved away in 1974 my parents were still there up until 2006, and I've no recollection of them mentioning the crash, or of seeing it on the news.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby aceyone on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:45 pm

AlexC wrote:That is really rather interesting as I actually come from Lee (and had lots of friends in Mottingham, drank at the Porcupine Pub ('Porky') regularly) and although I moved away in 1974 my parents were still there up until 2006, and I've no recollection of them mentioning the crash, or of seeing it on the news.



Maybe you spent too much time in the Porky :lol:

here you are
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventimages.php?eventID=8961&imageID=1335
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby AlexC on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:51 pm

[quote="aceyone"]Maybe you spent too much time in the Porky :lol: quote]

I couldn't possibly comment on that! :wink:

Thanks for the link.
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby FarnboroJohn on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 2:51 pm

aceyone wrote:Erm I think you'll find that the birds have been there since at least 1977 in fact I believe they originated from there when
a freight train derailed between Mottingham and Lee stations ,the loco rolled down an embankment and demolished an aviary in someone's back garden containing said birds,soon afterwards a colony took to roosting in Poplar trees between
Grove Park and Sundridge Park stations and a years or later there was another colony in Hither Green Cemetery !


First breeding was recorded in Kent in 1969, so while the birds to which you refer may have joined the feral population they did not originate it.

John
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby aceyone on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 3:20 pm

FarnboroJohn wrote:
aceyone wrote:Erm I think you'll find that the birds have been there since at least 1977 in fact I believe they originated from there when
a freight train derailed between Mottingham and Lee stations ,the loco rolled down an embankment and demolished an aviary in someone's back garden containing said birds,soon afterwards a colony took to roosting in Poplar trees between
Grove Park and Sundridge Park stations and a years or later there was another colony in Hither Green Cemetery !


First breeding was recorded in Kent in 1969, so while the birds to which you refer may have joined the feral population they did not originate it.

John[/quote

Another myth shattered ! you live and learn !
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby Berf on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 3:26 pm

boff180 wrote:Rooks don't just eat inspects, they eat cereal crops too - it's part of their primary diet and - particularly in planting season - damage crops particularly when they feed in large groups near Rookeries. Spring crops appear to be hit the worst to the point farmers look for proactive means to protect their fields, not just hunting to keep numbers down.

I'm not talking about protecting game birds - that is a completely different matter.

I'm talking about protecting crops from species declared by the government and experts in the industry (sorry Caper, but they know more than you on this) to be a problem. Some are native growing out of control due to mans previous interactions/evolving in response - others are introduced. Take Mink for example - not native to the UK, has been released in to the wild by activists trying to save them and they are now systematically destroying native species that some ecosystems rely on. Should we leave them be or should we do something about it?



While rooks may eat cereal crops it is the creation of those same intensively farmed fields that have wiped out much of the native bird species. But when it comes down to it it is the human intervention that has created the issue. How much grain etc is thrown away in wasted food by humans?
Berf

Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby FarnboroJohn on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 3:49 pm

aceyone wrote:
FarnboroJohn wrote:
aceyone wrote:Erm I think you'll find that the birds have been there since at least 1977 in fact I believe they originated from there when
a freight train derailed between Mottingham and Lee stations ,the loco rolled down an embankment and demolished an aviary in someone's back garden containing said birds,soon afterwards a colony took to roosting in Poplar trees between
Grove Park and Sundridge Park stations and a years or later there was another colony in Hither Green Cemetery !


First breeding was recorded in Kent in 1969, so while the birds to which you refer may have joined the feral population they did not originate it.

John[/quote

Another myth shattered ! you live and learn !


As far as I know there is no consensus on the particular escape events that led to a sufficient concentration of Ring-necked Parakeets to lead to successful and increasing breeding. One of the myths around the matter is that the originals were "extras" on the set of The African Queen, flew off, and set up home afterwards in the Elstree area. Probably there were simply so many kept in the London area, and escaping, that it was inevitable. Their original distribution includes the foothills of the Himalaya so they have no difficulty with our climate.

John
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Re: This made it's way to the BBC springwatch FB page.

Postby Harlequin67 on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 5:51 pm

FarnboroJohn wrote:
aceyone wrote:
FarnboroJohn wrote:
aceyone wrote:Erm I think you'll find that the birds have been there since at least 1977 in fact I believe they originated from there when
a freight train derailed between Mottingham and Lee stations ,the loco rolled down an embankment and demolished an aviary in someone's back garden containing said birds,soon afterwards a colony took to roosting in Poplar trees between
Grove Park and Sundridge Park stations and a years or later there was another colony in Hither Green Cemetery !


First breeding was recorded in Kent in 1969, so while the birds to which you refer may have joined the feral population they did not originate it.

John[/quote

Another myth shattered ! you live and learn !


As far as I know there is no consensus on the particular escape events that led to a sufficient concentration of Ring-necked Parakeets to lead to successful and increasing breeding. One of the myths around the matter is that the originals were "extras" on the set of The African Queen, flew off, and set up home afterwards in the Elstree area. Probably there were simply so many kept in the London area, and escaping, that it was inevitable. Their original distribution includes the foothills of the Himalaya so they have no difficulty with our climate.

John


Another myth the African Queen was shot entirely at Elstree. Scenes from the film were shot at Twickenham and Isleworth studios and used the Thames in those areas. Research shows the houses, in various shots of the production match Worton Road. Also, the Green Parakeets did not escape from that production as they only populated the area in the last 20 years to any great numbers.
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