Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby bernarde on Tue 15 May 2018, 10:56 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
XR219 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:[i] Act with reasonable care and skill like .... employing aircrew who won't roll the aeroplane contrary to it's Permit To Fly weeks after the most publicised airshow crash in the UK since 1952



On that specific point then, can you elaborate as to what policy the Trust should have adopted in terms of employing aircrew? On the flight in question, as is well known one of the pilots was a chief test pilot of an aerospace OEM and a CAA DAE, while the other was a long haul airline first officer and held a valid DA. I propose that their competencies and experience would have passed the threshold set by a reasonable person charged with recruiting a Vulcan display crew. By extension, the decision to do so would have been unlikely to raise alarm bells for those charged with oversight of the Trust.


It speaks very poorly for the standards of workplace discipline if employees felt able to flaunt the rules in that manner, especially at that critical time in the weeks immediately after Shoreham. Likewise the hangar practices that saw a silica gel bag left in the intake - how and why, and by whom (the identity of the person responsible on the day has, to my knowledge, yet to make it into the public arena) was such a mistake made? The polar opposite of "reasonable care and skill" in anybody's language.


.
Last edited by bernarde on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 15 May 2018, 11:11 pm

bernarde wrote:Original quote removed by poster


That's some allegation to make, Bernarde. I'm sure Steve Liddle will be along to clear that one up. If it were true, that (and any cover-up) would be quite the game-changer. "Reasonable care and skill", remember.
Last edited by Dan O'Hagan on Wed 16 May 2018, 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby CJS on Wed 16 May 2018, 5:47 am

Yikes!! That's the kind of comment you only make with clear evidence bernarde.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:30 am

Given the fact that there are those on the VTTS forum ( including former engineering & other former employees of VTST ) who profess not to frequent this forum, I've just posted that accusation on there to see if it elicits any comment from them.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:47 am

Brevet Cable wrote:Given the fact that there are those on the VTTS forum ( including former engineering & other former employees of VTST ) who profess not to frequent this forum, I've just posted that accusation on there to see if it elicits any comment from them.


In the meantime, I'd say it's a claim Bernarde needs to substantiate with evidence. If true, and not just fence-line chatter, the seriousness of it far, far outweighs "Rollgate".

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:48 am

I can't help but think that by focussing on past mistakes provides a welcome distraction from explaining why the trustees aren't acting decisively to rectify the current ongoing situation and to ensure that the charity is meeting its obligations to the public.. :whistle:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:00 am

richw_82 wrote:
XR219 wrote:Honestly, I've spent all day attempting not to react to this, but you've got me.


Good, that means I've got your attention.

XR219 wrote:I actually think that I've explained things as clearly as I can, within the constraints in which I am legally bound to work. What I do find confusing is what you think is in it for me in not telling all that I can? It would be much simpler, but sadly would not move things on very far as trust was lost (and contracts possibly breached) with organisations we are working with. I can't believe this is difficult to grasp, given your background. The fact that you do not think dealings should be confidential does not mean that agreements can be breached.


See, this is the problem. No-one's asking for minute detail, or commercial in confidence stuff, they just want a genuine feeling that something can and will be done. Hiding behind words is the skill of a politician, and usually a way to basically say "I don't know" without sounding or feeling foolish.

XR219 wrote:CAA/Ferry Flights: I have said consistently that discussions were had with the CAA on this topic. The outcome was an understanding that it was not worth pursuing. Do you think you've found something else?


CAA said after an FOI request, that no you didn't...

XR219 wrote:Classic Airforce: I vaguely remember a discussion with you about this, but I can't find it. Was it on the old thread? Anyway, as I recall you told me that VTTST has asked about the Nimrod when onsite at Coventry, which I said was news to me. But them I wouldn't know the contents of every chat between an employee and third party would I? The main point is that purchase of any or all of the classic airforce would have been subject to board level approval. What actually happened is that we were approached about the fleet by the owner and offered exceptional terms. We said we'd do some thinking and due diligence, but subsequently the offer was withdrawn. Do you have a different view of what happened?


Very much so, it was on Facebook. You flat out denied that VTTST had tried to buy the whole fleet and not just Canberra, something which I pointed out wasn't the case. You also denied that VTTST had gone sniffing around our Nimrod. I can't publically prove one, but you'll find me in the e-mail chain for both if you go digging.

XR219 wrote:What are the other things that I've got wrong?


There's a few, but to bring them to light I'd hurt other projects I actually still care about.

XR219 wrote:Finally, if you find me overly talkative, the simplest solution is for me to say nothing at in the future.


Oh, really? Sorry, you don't get to take the bat and ball and go home just yet. We're not done. :snack:


*These* are the important questions. The supposed roll and silica bag incident are irrelevant now. What happens to XH558 is still important, but a misbehaving charity is far more-so.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:16 am

I don't entirely agree. The silica gel and roll incidents might be history, but they are indicative of the culture of VTTS and hint at secrecy and a lack of transparency, discipline and regard for those outside the Doncaster bubble.
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MiG_Eater on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:29 am

Once again, Dan, I agree with you to an extent.

Particularly the silica bag incident is something which may have just been a terrible mistake. While it may have been the result of a failure to implement best practice - it may also have been a simple mistake which, lets face it, anyone is capable of on a (very) bad day. Brushing this under the carpet publicly and fixing things thoroughly behind the scenes may have been the best way to proceed at the time.

However, on issues such as the CAA FOI request and the current legal position of the charity we are talking about black and white facts - truth or lies which, if the truth was revealed entirely, would paint a clear and indisputable picture of the organisation.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:36 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I recall 'silicagate' was supposed to have been officially investigated ( CAA ? ) and it was a case of 'no action required', wasn't it?

Taff reads this forum, as does at least one other VTST employee ( if posts on another forum are correct )
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Wed 16 May 2018, 9:33 am

By putting these questions out there in the public domain and voicing concerns in real time, it gives the Trustees little place to hide in future.

Those overseeing failure often come out with the cliches "lessons will be learnt", "with the luxury of hindsight", "nobody saw this coming" etd but threads like this prove that the concerns were openly discussed at the time and we know that the charity are/were aware of such online conversations.

I would not want to be a trustee of the charity at present . The spiral is clearly downward. Can it be reversed? If not:

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Last edited by pbeardmore on Wed 16 May 2018, 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 16 May 2018, 9:58 am

I see the accusation has been deleted, then.
Guess 'bernarde' didn't want to put his money where his mouth is.
Bit late now, though.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Wed 16 May 2018, 6:00 pm

Great to read some new stuff about 558 that hasn't already been discussed to death years ago!

OH WAIT............! :facepalm:

So anyway, if we're going all Groundhog Day, do you remember when those numpties at Brunty thought it would be a good idea to put someone with no experience on the throttles of a Victor fast taxi run? :joystick:
Yeah and it took off and flew for a bit cos he apparently 'froze' and there was almost a disaster that would have killed off fast taxi runs forever. :wall: Haha, what a bunch of idiots eh? :clown:

Well it's been great reminiscing with you guys again. Same old time, same old guff next month?

Cheers! :biggrin:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Wed 16 May 2018, 6:08 pm

We thank you for your contribution.


Oh, and you did miss something new....except the person who posted it deleted it.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Wed 16 May 2018, 6:17 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:We thank you for your contribution.

You're very welcome. :biggrin:

Brevet Cable wrote:Oh, and you did miss something new....except the person who posted it deleted it.

I saw it posted on the VttS forum, but it was still related to the silica gel incident that is completely irrelevant now and has been for years.
Reds Rolling

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Wed 16 May 2018, 6:59 pm

Reds Rolling wrote:Great to read some new stuff about 558 that hasn't already been discussed to death years ago!

OH WAIT............! :facepalm:

So anyway, if we're going all Groundhog Day, do you remember when those numpties at Brunty thought it would be a good idea to put someone with no experience on the throttles of a Victor fast taxi run? :joystick:
Yeah and it took off and flew for a bit cos he apparently 'froze' and there was almost a disaster that would have killed off fast taxi runs forever. :wall: Haha, what a bunch of idiots eh? :clown:

Well it's been great reminiscing with you guys again. Same old time, same old guff next month?

Cheers! :biggrin:


Indeed RR, you'd think being salaried professionals and CAA certified those guys at Brunty should have known better. Just as well they pretended it was a professional pilot on the throttles so they got away with it... :roll:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:05 pm

pbeardmore wrote:Those overseeing failure often come out with the cliches "lessons will be learnt", "with the luxury of hindsight", "nobody saw this coming" etd but threads like this prove that the concerns were openly discussed at the time and we know that the charity are/were aware of such online conversations.


Indeed, but depressing I've got a feeling when the inevitable conclusion to this sad tail is reached, those responsible will disappear into the shadows leaving volunteers to pick up the pieces of what's left. All the money will have vanished, and opportunities for alternatives long since missed, so they will have an uphill battle. At least we got a few years of flying though, so David Walton's investment did at least come to something, such a pity the retirement has been wrecked though.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:25 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:...roll the aeroplane contrary to it's Permit To Fly....


I guess the apostrophe was due to the excitement of the moment, but does anyone actually know the specific Permit to Fly manoeuvring limitations / permitted manoeuvres that applied to XH558?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby richw_82 on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:37 pm

You should be able to find any limits in the AAN.

https://siteapps.caa.co.uk/aans/

Look for 27038, or the registration mark VLCN.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Wed 16 May 2018, 7:55 pm

richw_82 wrote:You should be able to find any limits in the AAN.

https://siteapps.caa.co.uk/aans/

Look for 27038, or the registration mark VLCN.


Thanks, interesting stuff.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby aviodromefriend on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:06 pm

Reds Rolling wrote:do you remember when those numpties at Brunty thought it would be a good idea to put someone with no experience on the throttles of a Victor fast taxi run? :joystick:
No experience on the throttles of a Victor? IIRC, it had one of the Victor pilots that flew during Black Buck at the controls when the wind didn't behave as expected.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Domvickery on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:10 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:
Reds Rolling wrote:do you remember when those numpties at Brunty thought it would be a good idea to put someone with no experience on the throttles of a Victor fast taxi run? :joystick:
No experience on the throttles of a Victor? IIRC, it had one of the Victor pilots that flew during Black Buck at the controls when the wind didn't behave as expected.


Yes but P2 had control of the throttles
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Wed 16 May 2018, 8:13 pm

Domvickery wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
Reds Rolling wrote:do you remember when those numpties at Brunty thought it would be a good idea to put someone with no experience on the throttles of a Victor fast taxi run? :joystick:
No experience on the throttles of a Victor? IIRC, it had one of the Victor pilots that flew during Black Buck at the controls when the wind didn't behave as expected.


Yes but P2 had control of the throttles


Was Bob Prothero involved in a Black Buck mission?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Thu 17 May 2018, 7:12 pm

MicrolightDriver wrote:Was Bob Prothero involved in a Black Buck mission?


I didnt think he was. Perhaps the above is getting confused with Bob Tuxford who often demonstrates the Victor at Bruntingthorpe. He most certainly was part of Black Buck including the famous first mission where the Victor nearly ran out of fuel it had passed so much to XM607.

www.victorxm715.co.uk/bob-tuxford/
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby GertrudetheMerciless on Thu 17 May 2018, 9:25 pm

Domvickery wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
Reds Rolling wrote:do you remember when those numpties at Brunty thought it would be a good idea to put someone with no experience on the throttles of a Victor fast taxi run? :joystick:
No experience on the throttles of a Victor? IIRC, it had one of the Victor pilots that flew during Black Buck at the controls when the wind didn't behave as expected.


Yes but P2 had control of the throttles


I always thought there were other bits of an aeroplane to help it fly, not just applying power. How that aeroplane was ever allowed to be in a position to leave the ground is still beyond me.

Nice, convenient too perhaps, to have an easy fall guy to blame though. :confused:
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