Display line distance

Display line distance

Postby Avronut on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 12:21 pm

Yesterday I went to the National Armed Forces Day in Llandudno to photograph the air displays. It was the first event I've attended since the Southport Air Show in 2015. I was really disappointed at how far away the aircraft were flying. I couldn't get anywhere near a frame-filling shot even with a 500mm prime on a x1.3 crop. Is this the norm now post Shoreham or is it something which is unique to Llandudno?
Avronut

Re: Display line distance

Postby jasonT1981 on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 2:09 pm

Its normal now sadly. Post Shoreham regulations have pushed the display line out further.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Tommy on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 2:31 pm

I'm not sure it's quite as simple as "post-Shoreham reality"

To my knowledge it's mostly still the standard 230m line which was used (perhaps not universally) for/by most shows, even pre-Shoreham.

Seaside shows, regardless of their location, always seem to have a display line much further away. I don't know the reason for this, be it a pier that juts out into the sea, so the 230m starts from the tip of the pier, rather than the pulic on the beach, or perhaps, as there tends to be at either ends of beaches, headlands that jut outwards into the sea, often as cliffs. I know from many-a-fond childhood memory of the Ormes at Llandudno, so maybe they had something to do with things?

Or, maybe it's if something, heaven forbid, did happen, that machines would be able to successfully stand a chance of ditching in the deeper water rather than risking it in shallow waters that might be crowded with people paddling in or swimming (plenty routinely ignored warnings/tellings off at Weston last Sunday and kept breaching the crowd line to get to the water's edge, especially when the tide came in) along with the beach itself.

Or maybe people in boats put paid to safety, or maybe the crowd is pushed further back from the 230m line due to the varying of the tide.

Any of these could apply and perhaps a million other reasons, but always seems to be the way for seaside airshows.

If the aim of the game is photography, most photographers tend to find said headlands (Ormes, Beachy Head, Brean Down etc) to shoot from.

Of those that I've attended over the years, seaside airshows are a different kettle of fish to inland ones, it seems. I normally bin off any serious attempt photography and just enjoy the day at the seaside.

So, tl;dr, I haven't a clue, but it's long been the case. A bit of careful planning though and you've no reason to come away empty handed.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby RIAT Air Ops on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 2:32 pm

jasonT1981 wrote:Its normal now sadly. Post Shoreham regulations have pushed the display line out further.


Incorrect, there's been no change at all.

Haven't done the Llandudno show and I'm certainly no expert with regard to seaside shows but if you consider a curved bay such as that at Llandudno then there's clearly going to be points at which any display line is nearer than the mandated distances if you take the measurements from the centre.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby jasonT1981 on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 7:59 pm

RIAT Air Ops wrote:
jasonT1981 wrote:Its normal now sadly. Post Shoreham regulations have pushed the display line out further.


Incorrect, there's been no change at all.

Haven't done the Llandudno show and I'm certainly no expert with regard to seaside shows but if you consider a curved bay such as that at Llandudno then there's clearly going to be points at which any display line is nearer than the mandated distances if you take the measurements from the centre.


hmm I stand corrected. I had thought the CAA moved the line further out. It does certainly seem the lines further out now. My mistake.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Avronut on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 8:17 pm

Thanks for the replies. I'm glad it isn't the post Shoreham CAA regulations and did wonder if it could be the geography of the bay/tide line. I don't know Llandudno well but I saw the people on the headland and was quite envious!
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Red Dragon on Sun 01 Jul 2018, 8:51 pm

I was also at the AFD event yesterday and, I think the line has been "adjusted" rather than "pushed". If you look at Llandudno promenade on google earth, all previous shows/ events had the display line running in a line from the tip of the pier towards the paddling pool. This year the display line seemed to be from the tip of the pier towards the little Orme.

I stood on the Big Orme (above the Grand Hotel) and in all honestly I could not hear the RR Merlin engines of the BBMF team. I know a lot of decent loop photographers were there, and even they were struggling with the distances involved.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Stagger2 on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 9:45 am

I'm not certain about this, but I think pre-Shoreham there was not the specific intense scrutiny applied to every single pass/manoeuvre as there is today. Seaside displays seemed to take account of the local topography & the 230m 'display-line' was deemed to be 230m from the curved seafront, ignoring piers/jetties & Castles!
Now the closest the aircraft gets is when a curving pass meets the designated straight-line 230m from anything the Public can access during the display. Add in an 'on-shore wind' component & you are in dot-spotting territory.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 10:40 am

As others have suggested, Llandudno is in a bay, so 230m out from the prom would force overflights of the pier, and avoiding manoeuvres around the Great and Little Ormes. So the line is pushed out further.

At the last Llandudno airshow in 2015 several of the acts got right into the bay, and there were lots of overflights of the pier, but I think the thing that is 'post-Shoreham' is strict enforcement of separation.

An interesting comparison with Southport because there you have a straight crowd line and display lines, and you get as close as its possible to be.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby McG on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 10:51 am

As far as I know the tide also needs to be taken into account when they are calculating the distance for the display line, which usually results on the display line being calculated based on a low tide.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby clearstone on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 11:07 am

As a military only event, they'd have been using the 230m line (and the 150m if the appropriate aircraft were taking part.) 230m will have been measured from the nearest points that the crowds (primary and secondary) can access. For formations and high speed aircraft, the military prefer straight lines so very quickly you can see why in Bay areas the 230m can become more "distant." They do however allow some rotary displays closer for SAR demos, winching etc. when hovering.

Under Civilian rules, slower civilian displays can be more flexible and can often "work the bay" to come a little closer, but would still have to maintain the appropriate clearances (mainly 150m or 230m but some maybe allowed closer if they have CAA dispensation and the flying display director is happy to accept that dispensation)
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Re: Display line distance

Postby BillRamsey on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 5:02 pm

Simples really.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CA ... pdf#page54

You’ll see, 230 metres applies to most civilian shows. However 150 metres applies to slow light aircraft ( in many cases used to be just slow so the CAA allowed 558 that close in our last seasons - despite what you might have read here!)

In particular note the 450 metre requirement for aircraft with an on-crowd vector at above 300 knots. That might explain some of the off-crowd distances you report. If the link doesn’t work just search CAP 403.

Hope that helps.

Bill
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Re: Display line distance

Postby melvyn hiscock on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 12:00 am

McG wrote:As far as I know the tide also needs to be taken into account when they are calculating the distance for the display line, which usually results on the display line being calculated based on a low tide.


No, if the crowd line is defined, and there is an exclusion on the beach, the line will not need to be moved.

Tide makes no difference
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Mooshie1956 on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 6:40 am

melvyn hiscock wrote:
McG wrote:As far as I know the tide also needs to be taken into account when they are calculating the distance for the display line, which usually results on the display line being calculated based on a low tide.


No, if the crowd line is defined, and there is an exclusion on the beach, the line will not need to be moved.

Tide makes no difference


Will you please inform Southport then that the tide makes no difference to when they can hold there airshow. Tide is very much a factor in when they can hold there show.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby stickshaker on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 9:01 am

Everyone is kind of right in parts. Where the crowd line is fixed, the tide makes no difference to the display line. At Southport, where the crowd line is the fence, the tide can (and does) come in and out without affecting the display line. The show date is determined by the high tide not being so high that it would swamp the show site. At sites where they want people on the beach (and in the water) the crowd line might be defined by the 'limit of swimming' line. That can also be independent of the tide, but can be a variable distance into the water and often 30m or more from the water's edge.

So, unless you want to be chest deep in water you might be well behind the crowd line, and it is often the viewer who is far from the aircraft rather than than the other way round. Anyone on the cliff top at Bournemouth, or the Prom at Southport, has already put themselves 200m or more behind the crowd line, and potentially 500m from some of the aircraft.

It is also the case that beaches are not often straight, and as mentioned, the 'line' needs to be positioned so that it is on minimums at the closest point(s). Some aircraft can fly some manoeuvres inside the marked line in places (whilst maintaining the appropriate separation from the crowd) whereas long/fast/straight passes (such as fast jets and synchro) need to maintain the line and will therefore be further away than the minimum at some points.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby andrewn on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 12:12 pm

Interesting discussion, that really confirms the death of UK airshows (as we knew them)

So there's hardly any inland venues left, that are not subject to onerous restrictions due to adjacent development (roads/houses/industrial, etc)

And seaside venues are basically a waste of time due to the display distances likely being even further away, for all the reasons outlined above.

Oh well, glad I was lucky enough to enjoy the good old days!
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andrewn

Re: Display line distance

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 12:23 pm

It really hit home at Headcorn this weekend just how detached the crowd is now from the display flying. Take the example of the Buchón there - superbly flown with topside after topside, but about a mile from the crowd line. There is zero chance of photographing displays properly without a crazy lens and teleconverter, so even with a 500mm lens in my bag I now go with the intention and expectation of only shooting take-off, landing and taxi shots as well as interesting start-up and people pictures. Shuttleworth is now the only venue on the circuit where display photography seems possible. A crying shame what airshows outside of Old Warden have become, and I only hope we can take some satisfaction and solace in the closure of the incident that got us into this situation early next year.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby vbombers2 on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 12:39 pm

I was at Weston-super-Mare this year and the display lines didn't look any different to me, the Reds did their usual thing of arriving directly over the town and straight across the beach. Other displays didn't seem any more distance than previous years. That said, it was mainly props and 'copters. Only jets apart from the Reds were the Typhoon and Strikemaster. Not sure if that makes a difference post-Shoreham.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Witchcraft24 on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 4:13 pm

As has already been stated, the display distances haven't changed at all post-Shoreham. Changes to any lines are to avoid secondary crowd areas and protect any uninvolved third party.

However, due out any time now is the long awaiting Frazer-Nash report into whether the current distances are appropriate, as they haven't been reviewed for some time.

In the event that this report suggests that display lines need to be made more distant, then it will be interesting to see how that affects air show attendance figures.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby Gonzo230 on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 5:08 pm

If anything is ‘killing off airshows’, then it’s the cost of staging such events, such as public liability insurance and policing, etc.

The distances between display lines and crowds haven’t changed as a result of Shoreham, as has been mentioned more than once.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby melvyn hiscock on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 5:30 pm

Mooshie1956 wrote:
Will you please inform Southport then that the tide makes no difference to when they can hold there airshow. Tide is very much a factor in when they can hold there show.


That is more to do about access to the beach not being restricted, nothing to do with tide lines.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby melvyn hiscock on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 5:32 pm

At several shows I have worked at we have had trouble getting pilots to come into the line.
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Re: Display line distance

Postby King Cobra on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 6:40 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:It really hit home at Headcorn this weekend just how detached the crowd is now from the display flying. Take the example of the Buchón there - superbly flown with topside after topside, but about a mile from the crowd line. There is zero chance of photographing displays properly without a crazy lens and teleconverter, so even with a 500mm lens in my bag I now go with the intention and expectation of only shooting take-off, landing and taxi shots as well as interesting start-up and people pictures. Shuttleworth is now the only venue on the circuit where display photography seems possible. A crying shame what airshows outside of Old Warden have become, and I only hope we can take some satisfaction and solace in the closure of the incident that got us into this situation early next year.


The BBMF Spitfire displayed much closer and on a crop sensor 350mm at most was required for his passes. The closest pass required less than 300mm in facts. Parky’s solo display was next closest and then the Buchon that need a good 500mm or more. Why the difference though?
King Cobra

Re: Display line distance

Postby Wrexham Mackem on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 7:33 pm

King Cobra wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:It really hit home at Headcorn this weekend just how detached the crowd is now from the display flying. Take the example of the Buchón there - superbly flown with topside after topside, but about a mile from the crowd line. There is zero chance of photographing displays properly without a crazy lens and teleconverter, so even with a 500mm lens in my bag I now go with the intention and expectation of only shooting take-off, landing and taxi shots as well as interesting start-up and people pictures. Shuttleworth is now the only venue on the circuit where display photography seems possible. A crying shame what airshows outside of Old Warden have become, and I only hope we can take some satisfaction and solace in the closure of the incident that got us into this situation early next year.


The BBMF Spitfire displayed much closer and on a crop sensor 350mm at most was required for his passes. The closest pass required less than 300mm in facts. Parky’s solo display was next closest and then the Buchon that need a good 500mm or more. Why the difference though?


I'm assuming its as Melvyn suggests; the pilot's choice.
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