Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
Post Reply
User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9401
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Tommy »

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/ro ... at-in-2022

As confirmed by the RAF and noticed by eagle-eyed AvGeeks!

BossMann
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue 30 Dec 2008, 6:21 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by BossMann »

Will they have time to switch the formation's to a 2012 type display with the formations splitting as Enid and synchro pair?

User avatar
tankbuster81
UKAR Supporter
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:14 pm
Location: Rochester,Kent.

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by tankbuster81 »

I've never known this occur before? I wonder which pilots? I know Bondy has returned for 2022
Don't bother running, you'll only die tired!!

farnboroughrob
Posts: 2118
Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:31 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by farnboroughrob »

Suprised to see this, I am assuming it is a pilot issue? Have a couple of display pilots dropped out ? Or more likely is it to save money, will it be a permanant move?

jules48
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 6:18 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by jules48 »

1 pilot has been sent home for being drunk while they are practicing in Greece and another one suspended due to inappropriate behaviour.RAF are carrying out extensive enquiry apparently and obviously not enough time to train 2 more pilots.

Thoughtful_Flyer
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri 12 Sep 2008, 8:32 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

The tabloid press seem to be running stories about the "scandal" this morning but with little detail......

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4925
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by pbeardmore »

"moved to other roles within the RAF. " - as you do !!
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9401
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Tommy »

Grateful to Brian in the Interesting Internet thread for catching it:
Pen Pusher wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 4:50 am
AlfaPapa wrote:
Tue 10 May 2022, 12:24 pm
Sadly one of the pilots has left the team. I don't know why, but they certainly are not out in Greece with the others.
The RAF is investigating the Red Arrows over allegations of drinking, it has emerged.

Sources claim one pilot has been sent home from Greece, where the famous aerobatic display team is training.

An insider claimed: ‘There is a huge under-the-table inquiry going on. It’s to do with alcohol and suspected inappropriate behaviour. The head of the RAF is personally involved in the Red Arrows probe.’
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... viour.html

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9401
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Tommy »

A similar thing happened in 2012, and Kirsty had to leave the team very sadly (albeit for for much more justifiable reasons, iirc).

I think they must need an odd number, because it was one pilot who left in both cases, yet the team dropped down to seven both in 2012 and this year.
jules48 wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 9:50 am
1 pilot has been sent home for being drunk while they are practicing in Greece and another one suspended due to inappropriate behaviour.RAF are carrying out extensive enquiry apparently and obviously not enough time to train 2 more pilots.
But then again, when it rains, it pours!

Thoughtful_Flyer
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri 12 Sep 2008, 8:32 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

It seems to be felt that it is not possible / safe to bring in another pilot, however experienced, except possibly near the very start of training.

So, unless they change to having two pilots cover each position there will always be a problem if one or more drops (or is kicked) out for whatever reason.

Does the P de F for example operate in the same way?

Mike
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 5:08 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Mike »

Tommy wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 10:39 am
A similar thing happened in 2012, and Kirsty had to leave the team very sadly (albeit for for much more justifiable reasons, iirc).
Sleeping with the (married) boss, and then lying about it to an enquiry, IIRC. And then becoming the only Red Arrows pilot in the history of the team to walk away mid-season.

Thoughtful_Flyer
Posts: 446
Joined: Fri 12 Sep 2008, 8:32 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

Mike wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 12:37 pm
Tommy wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 10:39 am
A similar thing happened in 2012, and Kirsty had to leave the team very sadly (albeit for for much more justifiable reasons, iirc).
Sleeping with the (married) boss, and then lying about it to an enquiry, IIRC. And then becoming the only Red Arrows pilot in the history of the team to walk away mid-season.
It did lead to some good newspaper headlines IIRC. "Reach for the flies" was one of the better ones!

User avatar
boff180
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9830
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 2:28 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by boff180 »

Guys, if you're going to discuss things like that can we keep to the facts please.

The inquiry in 2011 took no action against Kirsty or Ben, closing the matter at that point. Kirsty then left the team in 2012 due to stress from the loss in quick succession of Jon Egging and Sean Cunningham.

The team have already had to replace a member of the team earlier this year when Damo Green had to step back for family matters, he was replaced by Bondy.

The issue now is likely going to be that it is too late to bring someone else in as they are halfway through Springhawk. At a time that RAF fast jet pilots are very busy operationally with QRA, training Qatari pilots, operating in Syria, and the enhanced NATO Policing patrol which is being flown directly from Lossiemouth, Coningsby and Marham on a daily basis - crews just aren't available.

Apart from one article in a tabloid that is known for not publishing the truth, all we know is that the team are performing as a 7 ship. I'm sure the results of any inquiry will be published in the fullness of time but right now we don't actually know what has really happened - I certainly don't believe a word the Daily Mail writes.

Andy

Bluebird Mike
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri 16 Jul 2010, 6:58 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Bluebird Mike »

It will be interesting to see how honestly David Montenegro's forthcoming official history of the Reds will tackle events such as Kirsty and Ben...

Reds Rolling
Posts: 757
Joined: Thu 12 Sep 2013, 10:50 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Reds Rolling »

Bluebird Mike wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 6:05 pm
It will be interesting to see how honestly David Montenegro's forthcoming official history of the Reds will tackle events such as Kirsty and Ben...
A 'blow by blow' account you mean? :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

I'll be interested in reading about the time Monty flew his plane into Mike Ling's. Didn't seem to harm his career! :laughing:
Thoughtful_Flyer wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 12:05 pm
It seems to be felt that it is not possible / safe to bring in another pilot, however experienced, except possibly near the very start of training
Pablo O Grady came back at very short notice as Red 6 after the Synchro crash, and that was when they were Springhawk training.

Stagger2
Posts: 1940
Joined: Thu 16 Jun 2011, 8:46 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Stagger2 »

If there was a will to provide a full complement of 9 jets then I'm sure that could be done? It all rather depends on the positions within the 9 jet formation that have been vacated. They've indicated there will still be a full nine a/c for Ceremonial Fly-overs, with just 7 for displays.

User avatar
aviodromefriend
Posts: 2555
Joined: Sat 26 Jun 2010, 2:22 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by aviodromefriend »

Tommy wrote:
Sat 14 May 2022, 10:39 am
I think they must need an odd number, because it was one pilot who left in both cases, yet the team dropped down to seven both in 2012 and this year.
Wrong, they have flown as an 8 (even number) ship before. See when Gary Waterfall broke his leg or foot in (I think) '97. Normally they claim that they can adapt from nine to eight at very short notice, unless it is Red 1 dropping out. Also they had that visit to the Netherlands when they flew a four ship (only te Gypo thing) when after the death of Egging and Cunningham another pilot from Enid arrived sick.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

Mike Moses, Launch Integration Manager Space Shuttle Program

User avatar
aceyone
Posts: 2864
Joined: Tue 23 Jun 2009, 12:25 pm
Location: Bromley Kent

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by aceyone »

They also flew as an eight ship for a display or two on their North America tour a few years ago when Red 2 Flight Lieutenant Damo Green flew home for the birth of his child
Don't know about those jets ,they spoil a very nice place

FarnboroJohn
Posts: 3038
Joined: Tue 28 Aug 2012, 6:57 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by FarnboroJohn »

2019 Dunsfold - eight

Image20190615 (206)_The_Red_Arrows by John Dixon, on Flickr

They've done it when necessary on occasion.

But the rules have got tighter over the years, so what was do-able in the past may not be now. Or perhaps it is no longer felt that quantity has a quality all its own, or an asymmetric formation doesn't look right (is that what kept the rotte/kette out of the RAF early in WWII?)

User avatar
jasonT1981
Posts: 2137
Joined: Fri 19 Jul 2013, 5:57 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by jasonT1981 »

Back in 2012 they displayed a 2 ship display, Syncro pair only at Portrush, Northern Ireland due to multiple incidents.

https://aerobaticteams.net/en/news/i104 ... trush.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern- ... t-19532386

User avatar
captainfurious
Posts: 206
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 7:26 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by captainfurious »

I don't want to sound ignorant, so I will, but if one of these pilots is part of the synchro pair wouldn't it have a big impact on the display? Or are we at a stage where they can rearrange training to keep a synchro pair if this were the case?

User avatar
boff180
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9830
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 2:28 pm
Location: Solihull
Contact:

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by boff180 »

Re: 7/8 ship displays.

I’ve seen plenty of 8 aircraft displays but not 7.

The team practice every year to display whilst a team member is missing, they just fly with a gap in the formation as they all form off of Red 1.

Indeed, their first display post COVID last year was an 8 ship as aircraft had gone tech!

The difference this year is eagle eyed spotters noticed that the 8 ship formation being flown (now 7) during Springhawk had been deliberately modified to reflect the reduced number of aircraft. (No gaps and a symmetrical formation) making it appear tbe 8-ship was a deliberate change - not practicing for a contingency.

As for if there is a synchrog pair this yeah - no IdeArt

User avatar
Tommy
UKAR Staff
Posts: 9401
Joined: Mon 14 Mar 2011, 11:39 pm

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by Tommy »

boff180 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:08 am
I’ve seen plenty of 8 aircraft displays but not 7.
The 2012 season was a 7-ship display, as has been mentioned.

Re the 7/8-ship, I know that they have displayed with 8, but it usually leaves a very noticeable gap in the formation, I was wondering if they perhaps needed an odd number when working up for the entire season (rather than occasions of pilot sickness), as that appears to be what happened in 2012. But the video I posted a week or so ago, showed 8 aircraft.

In any event, it’s moot, according to the DM, it’s two pilots who have been moved on anyway.

User avatar
tankbuster81
UKAR Supporter
Posts: 3442
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:14 pm
Location: Rochester,Kent.

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by tankbuster81 »

I'm looking forward to the (Whiskey) Barrell rolls, and the Diamond (white) formations.
Don't bother running, you'll only die tired!!

User avatar
pbeardmore
Posts: 4925
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 9:16 am

Re: Red Arrows - Seven aircraft display 2022

Post by pbeardmore »

Tommy wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 8:42 am
boff180 wrote:
Mon 16 May 2022, 2:08 am
I’ve seen plenty of 8 aircraft displays but not 7.
The 2012 season was a 7-ship display, as has been mentioned.

Re the 7/8-ship, I know that they have displayed with 8, but it usually leaves a very noticeable gap in the formation, I was wondering if they perhaps needed an odd number when working up for the entire season (rather than occasions of pilot sickness), as that appears to be what happened in 2012. But the video I posted a week or so ago, showed 8 aircraft.

In any event, it’s moot, according to the DM, it’s two pilots who have been moved on anyway.
Not the DM, direct from RAFAT page "as two of our formation pilots have moved to other roles within the RAF. "
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

Post Reply