Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

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Mike
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Mike »

Ben announced on Monday that a number of aircraft were taking off to practice Wednesday's departure for France. This consisted of them all taking off (11 aircraft took part in the practice IIRC), then turning around and once they were all airborne, making individual flypasts from the Royston end in trail. So there was definitely a plan in place at some point, at least as late as Monday afternoon, for them to do this on departure on Wednesday.

DOUGHNUT
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by DOUGHNUT »

Mike wrote:Ben announced on Monday that a number of aircraft were taking off to practice Wednesday's departure for France. This consisted of them all taking off (11 aircraft took part in the practice IIRC), then turning around and once they were all airborne, making individual flypasts from the Royston end in trail. So there was definitely a plan in place at some point, at least as late as Monday afternoon, for them to do this on departure on Wednesday.

I was at DX on Wednesday 5th and that is exactly what they did !!
The first batch of aircraft took off turned over Royston and flew overhead DX in single file whilst he second batch took off in very quick succession turned a right hand leg and departed to follow in single file on the approved NOTAM route to the North East of Stansted. As has already been mentioned the formation was late taking off and presumably the NOTAM route to the south coast had an expiry time.
We have all seen the Balbo forming up at DX ? it takes a good 20mins to get the twenty or so Warbirds into position, how long to you think it would take to join up and turn twenty DC-3 ?
Yes it would have been nice to see such a formation but it was just not practical.
I think everybody got exactly what they could reasonably have expected from the two days at Duxford. As for the price £25 was only £7 more than a standard museum admission.
I was a shame that more aircraft could not be made accessible but all were expected to fly during the day and most were parked in the middle of an operational airfield.

Ryan.
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Ryan. »

Indeed it did, all paratroopering aircraft performed a flypast before departing to France. I think the discussion is whether or not a mass flypast of all the DC-3/ C-47 variants was something advertised or alluded to at Duxford itself. I certainly didnt think it was.

Stagger2
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Stagger2 »

In a nutshell the Duxford Event was a pale shadow of what was promoted & even in better weather most probably couldn't have delivered anything of the calibre anticipated from the promotional literature.
The Caen/Carpiquet Event was a complete & utter shambles & certainly perfect weather could NOT have saved this from itself! Massively over-zealous French Security for the 6th June Presidential visits left-over to the 7th meant closed roads, poor access & non-existent organised infrastructure necessary for the advertised event. I would question why only aircraft that were revenue earning were able to fly in the less than brilliant weather on the Thursday?....but then I see that by that time the whole Dak Community were waking-up to the fact they had been shafted!
For those waiting & waiting & waiting at Sannerville on the 5th, the weather got worse & the skies darker as time ticked by. First glimpse of Daks over Normandy was maybe 10 a/c in one mile trail well to the North of the DZ. that routed wide around the patient stalwarts to land straight into Caen. After waiting & waiting some more, 2 Civvie cans arrived overhead the DZ. & proceeded to circle about 8 times before disgorging around 25 sport-parachutists (including the Red Devils?). With the airspace full of modern parachutists, the second wave of 3 x 3 +1 'Drop-Daks' on a Live run-in had to make a un-rehearsed break at probably less than 3 miles from the DZ. to avoid the chutes in the air. That was the last time there was ever any formations at all. What ensued could only be described as a tragedy looking for somewhere to happen! Aircraft in all directions dropping wave after wave of Round Canopy chutes to land wherever. With the village to the East, some paratroopers got very close. The High Tension cables & the Pylons to the west were mercifully avoided with some paratroopers from the same stick landing very close to them furthest from the DZ. There is a live Motorway one mile south of the DZ. & some paratroopers landed in adjacent fields due to the radical headings used by the Dak's.
Anybody that went to Shuttleworth on the Saturday or Sunday preceeding this charade did themselves a BIG favour. Just take a look at the Wiesbaden Day for how Joe Average might've expected things to be?
Dak's over Normandy it certainly was... All over Normandy! :facepalm:

elterwater
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by elterwater »

Ryan. wrote:Can I ask where the impression came from that the departures on Wednesday would feature a mass flypast at Duxford? I read the timetable and didn't notice anything saying that might be the case.


Here:

https://www.iwm.org.uk/file-download/do ... ublic/9323

5 June 2019
* IWM Duxford gates open 10am
* 10am-6pm Large WW2 airborne exhibition (AirSpace Conservation Hall)
* 10am-6pm 16th Air Assault brigade display and demonstrations
* 1.40pm – 2.10pm Take-off all aircraft formations
* 2.10pm-2.15pm Mass formation over IWM Duxford heading off to Normandy
* 2.15pm-2.45pm D-Day aircraft parade
* Gates close 6pm

A flypast one by one was not what I would call a mass formation.

DOUGHNUT
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by DOUGHNUT »

"2.10pm-2.15pm Mass formation over IWM Duxford heading off to Normandy"

Yes. If it had happened in better weather at 2.00pm. But it happened at 4.00pm and less than ideal weather.

DOUGHNUT
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by DOUGHNUT »

"For those waiting & waiting & waiting at Sannerville on the 5th, the weather got worse & the skies darker as time ticked by. First glimpse of Daks over Normandy was maybe 10 a/c in one mile trail well to the North of the DZ. that routed wide around the patient stalwarts to land straight into Caen"

You answer your own question the weather was less than ideal, the formation was running late, the solution appears to be land the main formation and bring in the sports paradrop, which IIRC included two veterans doing a tandem jump. Very bad timing and dangerous coordination of the DC-3 paradrop but once again you mention the bad weather.

"over-zealous French Security for the 6th June Presidential visits left-over to the 7th meant closed roads"

It is quite possible that Caen Carpiquet nor Daks over Normandy had any control of where President Trump's aircraft were to operate on the 6th June, as for closed roads on the 7th I was present and had no problem accessing the eastern side of the airport.

I am in no way defending the Caen event, the Friday car parking / shuttle bus system did not work. The airfield layout did not work. The flying display did not work.

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Mooshie1956
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Mooshie1956 »

elterwater wrote:5 June 2019

* 2.10pm-2.15pm Mass formation over IWM Duxford heading off to Normandy


.


You do know that the delay was no fault of Daks over Normandy or the IWM.
I believe some VVIP was late getting over to France and air space was closed.
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elterwater
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by elterwater »

I've no issue with the timing, it's the fact that a mass formation was advertised. As it was, the single file procession was already mentioned earlier in the day when the VVIP delay was announced as pushing back the departure to gone 3pm. We were all staring down the airfield at that time in disbelief as the parachutists hadn't even begun boarding...

Tom105
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Tom105 »

elterwater wrote:I've no issue with the timing, it's the fact that a mass formation was advertised. As it was, the single file procession was already mentioned earlier in the day when the VVIP delay was announced as pushing back the departure to gone 3pm. We were all staring down the airfield at that time in disbelief as the parachutists hadn't even begun boarding...

This was my issue considering it was pushed back they should have been ready for the 1:50 departure not to leave until 4 due to lack of parachutists meant a lot of waiting around
Last edited by Tom105 on Fri 14 Jun 2019, 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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rockfordstone
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by rockfordstone »

my take on it was yes there was a lot promised that didn't happen but it was still great.

40+ aircraft was always ambitious, we say ourselves that 2 of them went tech whilst there so logistically it was always going to be difficult to nail down 40 serviceable aircraft.

In regards the para drop, i don't believe for one minute they loaded the planes with paras took them up only to give the illusion that they were going to do it. It was wet and windy and miserable on the ground so i'm really not surprised the jump was cancelled.

in regards the mass flypast, yes that was a let down. however, we have to factor in that their arrival slot was pushed back for a VIP, and you have to allow for the weather in both the start and end location as well as the flight itself for 23 75+ year old planes. 10 of which were loaded with parachutists. Lets not forget the BBMF pulled out cos of the weather situation.

From the conversations I overheard from some of the management it was a "customer event" implying that DoN had hired the site an organised the whole event.

Was it perfect? no. Did I expect more? yes, however i'm not going to see that many daks in one place again and i'm glad I went. I do feel for the people on the other side of the pond tho as that sounds like a completely "Well, there's no need for that" up as well as hideous weather

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Skyflash
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Skyflash »

Rest assured UKAR is doing a full investigation into just what went on here; in effect this will replace what ought to have been a standard airshow review but which has instead, of necessity, morphed into something rather bigger.

In the meantime and if commenting on events in Normandy please be mindful not to post anything potentially libellous or which could land UKAR in hot water with m'learned friends. There is definitely a story to be told here, particularly for those of us who endured the 'event' at Carpiquet, but it could very easily be undone if someone posts something on the public forums which turns out to be inaccurate and/or potentially damaging to any of the individuals involved. In particular, and whilst the 'Scammed...' Facebook page makes for fascinating (if somewhat grim) reading, I suspect that not all of it should be taken at face-value; there is more than a whiff of a bandwagon being jumped onto here, and much wheat to be sorted from an awful lot of chaff.

I know that you're all sensible people, of course... :wink:

Thanks all.
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pbeardmore
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by pbeardmore »

Yes, there is 100% outrage on the Facebook group and a few facts but the dust has to settle and, in the meantime, people are making many claims etc against the directors . Indeed, a clever director would be looking at these pages with a view to making claims for compensation. I seem to be the only poster who has used the word "alleged" for example. I also don't understand why 95% of the outrage seems to be directed against one director when there were three running the firm and one of these additional two was the director legally in charge. (up to the 5th June)

Some of the punters have contacted Watchdog (typical kneejerk reaction) and it's far too early to establish the full facts. I suspect Watchdog would love this story as it involves a high profile and emotional event and a researcher will be monitoring the facebookgroup daily.

Facebook is good for bringing people together but, it can create a sense of hysteria or "band wagon" that gets in the way of a rational, fact finding approach. Especially when many of the punters are from abroad and have little or no knowledge of UK civil or criminal law. Of course, this hysteria/scatter gun/headless chicken approach to any alleaged fraud is perfect to any alleged fraudster as it detracts for the real issues and gives time to close the firm down, move assets, close bank accounts etc etc
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lynothehammer
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by lynothehammer »

rockfordstone wrote:Was it perfect? no. Did I expect more? yes, however i'm not going to see that many daks in one place again and i'm glad I went. I do feel for the people on the other side of the pond though as that sounds like a completely "Well, there's no need for that" up as well as hideous weather


That's exactly how i feel, i went on the Sunday as well as the Wednesday and enjoyed both days.

DirtyFokker
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by DirtyFokker »

I went to Duxford on Weds 5/6. I enjoyed it despite the long delay before the mass departure. :smile:

F-BSHM
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by F-BSHM »

DirtyFokker wrote:I went to Duxford on Weds 5/6. I enjoyed it despite the long delay before the mass departure. :smile:

For me the delay was a good point ! It was my first time in Duxford and the delay allowed me to get in all aircrafts of the museum :biggrin:
I went on wednesday and completely enjoyed it !

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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by mark_aviation »

There is far too much emotion involved in that Facebook group. People (rightly) want there money back, but slagging off directors/ organisers isn’t going to get you anywhere.

There have been several posts on the group with people asking for a simple overview of what the problems with the events were and what people want resolved, but every time they get the same comments of “just read the rest of the posts on this group” or “PB is a (enter your choice of explicit)”.

If any journalist was to read that group they’d laugh and push it aside. I’m looking forward to the UKAR report as that could be what these people need as a starting point :up:

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pbeardmore
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by pbeardmore »

Trouble is, when you have around 300 consumers who feel agrieved, you will have a handfull who shout the loudest with childish insults and this gets in the way of what is clearly a serious issue.

Some of them are so sure of their "facts" but clearly have no knowledge of UK consumer law. It's a mess.
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rockfordstone
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by rockfordstone »

pbeardmore wrote:Some of them are so sure of their "facts" but clearly have no knowledge of UK consumer law. It's a mess.

sadly that sentiment is spread throughout all walks of life now. "my opinion is that x is y, no i don't know the regulations, that's your job. i know i'm right, i'm the customer/paying your wages/the one who elected you, listen to me". you can't have a reasoned argument on social media

mark_aviation
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by mark_aviation »

Just some movement info:

N25641 Liberty and N103NA Flabob Express look to be starting their journey home. Heading to Prestwick by the look of it.

N150D is currently flying to its new home in Switzerland with Swissair N431HM.

N18121 is staying in Europe for the summer based out of Dole, France so might see a few airshow visits out of her.

Mike
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Mike »

Miss Montana is setting off for home via Duxford in the next day or two.

That's All Brother is going to the Paris Air Show.

Six of the American aircraft from the D-Day Squadron are heading to Venice for a few days.

mark_aviation
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by mark_aviation »

Dakota Norway LN-WND is also still stuck at Duxford requiring two new engines. From the rumours I’ve heard, they may be struggling finding the funds for them. :sad:

F-BSHM
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by F-BSHM »

Also, Tabitha May was in Nice from wednesday to saturday :) I went to Duxford to see the Daks and what was my surprise to see her at home one week later !

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rockfordstone
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by rockfordstone »

mark_aviation wrote:Dakota Norway LN-WND is also still stuck at Duxford requiring two new engines. From the rumours I’ve heard, they may be struggling finding the funds for them. :sad:

that's quite sad. the plus side is at least they are in the right place to get assistance from ARCo

Mike
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Re: Daks Over Normandy - June 2019

Post by Mike »

mark_aviation wrote:Dakota Norway LN-WND is also still stuck at Duxford requiring two new engines.

Is that confirmed by a reliable source, or simply internet scuttlebutt? AFAIK Dakota Norway themselves have yet to make any statement about the nature of the repairs required.

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