Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Discuss airshows and other aviation events at the Imperial War Museum
GeeRam
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by GeeRam »

Mike wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 1:34 am
GeeRam wrote:...seems to have escaped his notice then.
*her* notice, in this case
Oh dear.......... :rolling_eyes:

I dare say all the 'inclusivity' boxes were ticked off on her job app, but the 'interest in the subject' box went unticked, not that they cared about that.

GeeRam
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by GeeRam »

pb643 wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 7:03 am
Are there any other locations that allow the use of both a hard-surface runway and a broad expanse of grass for those unique mass takeoffs, 3 or 4 abreast?

I am not aware of any?
I can't think of one either.

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

GeeRam wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 7:36 am
UKTopgun wrote:
Wed 26 Aug 2020, 10:08 pm
If IWM go down the road of killing airshows there, they need to be careful as they may find themselves with a dusty old museum no-one bothers with in 10 years time.
You're ignoring the house building expansion demands in and around the Cambridge area......and the value of turning the 'active' airfield site into a housing estate, especially with its proximity to the M11 junction.

I'm sure there are very good financial reasons that IWM would be happy to see all flying activity end at Duxford and just keep the non-flying museum part of the site.

There's nothing I've seen in the last few days that suggests that IWM wants to stop airshows. In the case of Legends, far from it, IWM want that mid-summer slot to run their own event to replace it, therefore 'maximising their revenue'.

Like everyone else, I very much hope Legends finds a new home, In his radio interview Nick Grey seemed positive, and also stated they didn't want to move far. Good luck to TFC.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by GeeRam »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 8:14 am
In his radio interview Nick Grey seemed positive, and also stated they didn't want to move far.
Perhaps they've already struck a deal with Marshall's to hold it there..... :wink:

There aren't exactly a lot of options to 'not move far'.

The only obvious one of course is Old Warden, but would Legends work in the confines of Old Warden, I don't think so?

I hope that TFC can make it work somewhere else.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by GeeRam »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 8:14 am
GeeRam wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 7:36 am
UKTopgun wrote:
Wed 26 Aug 2020, 10:08 pm
If IWM go down the road of killing airshows there, they need to be careful as they may find themselves with a dusty old museum no-one bothers with in 10 years time.
You're ignoring the house building expansion demands in and around the Cambridge area......and the value of turning the 'active' airfield site into a housing estate, especially with its proximity to the M11 junction.

I'm sure there are very good financial reasons that IWM would be happy to see all flying activity end at Duxford and just keep the non-flying museum part of the site.

There's nothing I've seen in the last few days that suggests that IWM wants to stop airshows. In the case of Legends, far from it, IWM want that mid-summer slot to run their own event to replace it, therefore 'maximising their revenue'.
The problem with that mid-summer slot and turning it into a generic airshow, is they will be very much competing with RIAT then, instead of being the niche airshow, which was something very different to RIAT.

As someone else said, the old end of season Oct slot was a wonderful Duxford airshow, now gone as well. The new daft young blood at IWM clearly want to do something different without actually understanding what they are doing, so we'll see who's right 5 years down the road, but I still think they won't shed a tear if all flying actively at Duxford were to end.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by Wondy »

Morning Everyone!

This is my first post on the forum which was motivated out of hearing the recent devestating news re Legends.

I guess i felt the need to post to help my own sanity let alone vent my frustration! So i do apologise if rather emotional! I am hoping somw of you can relate im sure.

Legends was (is) for many of us here (no doubt-as ardent warbird and historic heritage lovers) one of the main focal weekends in my year and to be honest my life. Like many of you again we have been going since the first in 1994 and now it appears the end of the journey at Duxford.

I am so gutted and sad that it has come to this.

I have tried to look at this from a neutral perspective...do all good things always come to an end? After 30 odd years it was a good innings? Has nostalgia and “things not being like they used to” got the better and we just have to move with the times? Or indeed are we a minority of ardent ‘hardcore’ fans and the majority and average member of public takes priority in terms of demographic and future planning?

It certainly seems to me that the final point above is the key one?

Every xmas i would take a pilgrimage to the Battle of Britain Hall at Hendon...”the crown jewles” as i used to call it. Where else could you see so many historic luftwaffe aircraft all under one roof...where else could you see a building dedicated solely to one of our nations greatest triumphs? Now like the main Imperial War Museum site it has been decimated and feels more like an arcade or recruitment site then a museum. It seems like a similar strategy is now afoot at Duxford with a specific “hardcore” warbird show being shelved to accomodate a neutral joe public airshow slot.

Imperial War Museum is a business but i feel they have lost touch...i fear for future generations and how history is portrated and presented. I am 37 but feel so old...when i go to a museum i want to see objects in the flesh and smell and feel that period. Now in a digital era all that is dissapearing. Do the next generation simply want everything digital and that is the way of the future?

Legends on its day was truely magical and took you back in time. It is evident the Fighter Collection still want to retain that magic and moving site will help to retain that identify as Legends, it appears is no longer feasable at historic duxford. However legends without Duxford is at this moment in time unthinkable!

we all must support our heritage and what we love on here. Lets make sure we support the fighter collection and legends when the new venue is confirmed. At a tile when the world is a dark place and airshows seem to be dissapearing Legends was one of the few shows left that “took you back” I look foreard to seeing you all and support living history for our next generation wherever it may be next.

PS that twitter post from ‘a curator at IWM’ Ridiculous or what?! I think they need to read a history book or understand their demographic better!

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by pb643 »

GeeRam wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 8:41 am
Wrexham Mackem wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 8:14 am
In his radio interview Nick Grey seemed positive, and also stated they didn't want to move far.
Perhaps they've already struck a deal with Marshall's to hold it there..... :wink:

There aren't exactly a lot of options to 'not move far'.

The only obvious one of course is Old Warden, but would Legends work in the confines of Old Warden, I don't think so?

I hope that TFC can make it work somewhere else.
I can only think of Old Warden too. I presume that they must have a pretty good relationship with TFC, judging by the support given by TFC to the Fly Navy events. Obviuosly a fantastic location, but it would surely have to be a smaller event in terms of spectator numbers, traders and aerial participants. As fantastic as it would be to see 12 or 15 Spitfires launching or 18+ warbirds for the balbo, I just cant see that being practical or safe at Old Warden. The opportunity to operate takeoffs 4 abreast and landings 3 abreast(?) at Duxford, is I think unique and makes it a very time efficient location for such events.

I have just had a look at a map of Cambridge, it looks pretty much hemmed in on at least 3 sides.

There are other locations reasonably close, but I have no idea if any are still capable of operating aircraft, let alone staging an airshow? Bicester, Alconbury, Upper Heyford.
Last edited by pb643 on Thu 27 Aug 2020, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by pbeardmore »

I think we must not fall into the trap of assuming that Legends will be the same and, therfore, needs the same type/scale of venue. I think they may have to be more flexible with the concept in order to make use of whatever venue they can use. Old Warden, for example, simply could not cope with Legends as we know it but a smaller show could work and would still be a superb event. It would not create the same revenue perhaps but it would keep the brand alive until a larger venue could be found. If the interview is right re keeping it local, then its Old Warden or Marshalls?
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

From the likely candidates, I think Sywell seems like a good fit on the face of it - it has both a hard and grass runway, with parking available on hardstands too for the heavier types. There is already a connection to a big figure at Legends with Richard Grace’s fleet of warbirds housed there, and it used to host a biennial airshow anyway, so it has been proven as an event venue. It even has a museum on site! I’m not really sure how capacity would compare to Duxford though.
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by capercaillie »

How much room is there at Kemble these days among all the airliners for breaking?
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by SuffolkBlue »

I know there were plans for it to be a site for car storage back in 2018, but if these haven't materialized (or if there is still room on site if they have), could RAF Wyton be a feasible option? It would still keep the airshow in the Cambridgeshire area and it has relatively close rail links at Huntingdon and road links from the A14. The close proximity of the A141 could be stumbling block though, unless the display line could be shifted east.

Lots of ifs and buts.....
Last edited by SuffolkBlue on Thu 27 Aug 2020, 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by Mike »

Wyton is covered in cars

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by BobL »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 9:24 am
From the likely candidates, I think Sywell seems like a good fit on the face of it - it has both a hard and grass runway, with parking available on hardstands too for the heavier types. There is already a connection to a big figure at Legends with Richard Grace’s fleet of warbirds housed there, and it used to host a biennial airshow anyway, so it has been proven as an event venue. It even has a museum on site! I’m not really sure how capacity would compare to Duxford though.
From my previous post on using Sywell, 30 or so acres of parking that has been used before for other events would hold about 4-5,000 vehicles. Duxford limit post Shoreham was 10,000 vehicles. Visitor numbers for FL were in the 20,000 for each day - you'd need full occupancy on every vehicle to achieve that.

A shuttle bus from the nearby solar farm might be an option - park you car under the shade of a solar panel to keep it nice a cool...
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by GeeRam »

SuffolkBlue wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 10:23 am
I know there were plans for it to be a site for car storage back in 2018, but if these haven't materialized (or if there is still room on site if they have), could RAF Wyton be a feasible option? It would still keep the airshow in the Cambridgeshire area and it has relatively close rail links at Huntingdon and road links from the A14. The close proximity of the A141 could be stumbling block though, unless the display line could be shifted east.

Lot's of ifs and buts.....
I think Wyton would be out as its the Magpas Air Ambulance base, so can't see a display be allowed there, plus what the RAF use the new build site for as well, would I think preclude it being allowed for a major pubic access event.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by BobL »

Wyton no longer has a Aerodrome Traffic Zone,
The concrete runways are fenced off,
A 800 Mtr grass strip is operational.
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by Wondy »

I know from recent reading in the news that the owners of kemble are encouraging additinal aviation use and activities on the site. Arnt a lot of the Bruntingthorpe guys moving there? Could be an option in terms of size / location / logistics?

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

Kemble is just round the corner from Fairford, so would bring the added benefit of moving the two dates apart so as to avoid contention for local resources, and would solve one of the great frustrations of our airshow season; Legends and RIAT being on top of one another.

Doesn't really meet the 'close to Cambridge' criteria that Nick Grey mentioned though.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by BobL »

Kemblebridge?...
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by DOUGHNUT »

The idea that TFC can operate its fleet of aircraft away from its home base is hard to comprehend. Old Warden has had TFC aircraft but was a single display, take off and land at home base. TFC have taken aircraft to European shows, Ferte Alasis for example, but never more than two or three aircraft and these have sometimes had extended stays away from Duxford. Where the Flying Legends show takes place I expect will be dictated more by where home base is going to be in a few years time. Not suggesting that TFC will more away from Duxford entirely but some aircraft might not be seen in the hangar at Duxford all the time ?

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by DOUGHNUT »

I can think of several airfields that have all the requirements for safe Warbird maintenance and operation. Maybe there are issues with locations but Sywell and Goodwood both spring to mind.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by GeeRam »

DOUGHNUT wrote:
Thu 27 Aug 2020, 5:19 pm
Where the Flying Legends show takes place I expect will be dictated more by where home base is going to be in a few years time. Not suggesting that TFC will more away from Duxford entirely but some aircraft might not be seen in the hangar at Duxford all the time ?
I certainley wouldn't blame TFC for starting to look elsewhere for a base, if they haven't started already, perhaps expecting this attitude from IWM. I would think though the deciding factor will be their skilled staff. I presume most, if not all, live in reasonable commute distance from Duxford?

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by keithjs »

Kemble would indeed seem favourable to me? I assume only time will tell... Oh, and the display line would hopefully be north facing too if they were to keep it the same side that the At Home days were?
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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by catwomanofkent »

Flying Legends was a 'niche' event. But so what! We as traders were busier at FL than the other two shows. The tickets were always sold out, thousands of public coming in. People could also 'turn up' on the day and still pay for tickets (unlike the other two shows where u needed to pre buy tickets). It was a unique, well run and well attended show from our point of view. We have been at the receiving end of the new regime at Duxford, reorganizing the traders positions, which has caused a lot of problems for everyone. Not been successful for most! It's all the 'Hi guys, lanyard brigade' now, no concept of what the public want! We knew the crowd at FL and took specific stock for that show, the catering changes there have not been received well by the public, we hear everything that was going on from regulars, who now stop going because of the FOD changes. We hope it can move to somewhere else and would like to attend as traders once again.

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by Mike »

catwomanofkent wrote:The tickets were always sold out, thousands of public coming in.
Unlike the September show, Flying Legends rarely (if ever) was a complete sell-out (although it always attracted a good crowd)
catwomanofkent wrote:People could also 'turn up' on the day and still pay for tickets (unlike the other two shows where u needed to pre buy tickets).
Not true. Tickets for all major Duxford airshows (including Flying Legends) have been advance purchase only for several years (although you could still buy them online the night before - see above)

How can an airshow always sell out, and then allow entry on the day? You can't do both!!!!

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Re: Flying Legends to cease at Duxford

Post by R4118 »

Point of view of a mainland (belgian) aviation fan.

I used to do all Duxford shows in the far past. When the october show was axed, I felt it as a loss. Then the quality of the May show began to dwindle. And I stopped comming to that one as well. At the same time, in France new veneus were started up. Flying legends though, was always on my program, even when it clashed with RIAT. The september show was always worthwhile, but depended on weather.

So now, I must admit, there will be no reason left to come to Duxford. The museum is great and absolute unique. But, to be fair, once you have seen it, you have seen it. You can add some displays or re-arange items from one hanger to another, but the bottom line remains the same.
It's like Hendon. I have visited it many years ago and again after the "re-build". Really great. But now I have seen it. No reason to go back in future.

I fear Duxford will become the same. "Just" a museum. Nothing wrong with that. But if you look at its track record, it's certainly a great loss.
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