Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

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MiG_Eater
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by MiG_Eater »

Well I made an assumption which could be wrong - but I imagine when they rattle tins at airshows there's money that is currently going into the TVOC pot that might instead be going into Navy Wings or other projects.

Who knows.

GeeRam
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

MiG_Eater wrote:
Thu 18 Aug 2022, 5:49 pm
Well I made an assumption which could be wrong - but I imagine when they rattle tins at airshows there's money that is currently going into the TVOC pot that might instead be going into Navy Wings or other projects.
Are VTTS/TVOC still rattling any tins at airshows since 2015...?

My airshow attending days are long past so I don't know, but I suspect that its only the 558 fanclub that are still donating money for a static exhibit with a dodgy future, as they are the only ones daft enough to be doing that.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by MiG_Eater »

TVOC were at RIAT with a big trailer with lots of merch and buckets. I recall seeing them elsewhere as well recently - maybe Duxford?

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Seahornet »

106500 wrote:
Thu 18 Aug 2022, 1:08 pm
...I really cannot see an alternative to everyone getting behind VTTS just as they did way back in 2006. However, to simply give up now and see the destruction of XH558 is surely unthinkable!
If "everyone getting behind VTTS" is the only way to save it, then I'm afraid the destruction of XH558 is entirely thinkable. You'll have to accept that the great majority of those people who gave so much support to a unique chance to see a Vulcan fly once more, have very little interest in seeing one more added to the 16 other stuffed and mounted examples. I utterly respect your opinion that '558 must be saved, but I don't share it, and I fear that there are too few people who do, to have more than a slender chance of making it happen. I wish you (and XH558) the best of luck....
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ExVulcanGC
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ExVulcanGC »

I suppose one could extrapolate from the current fans/supporters not raising anywhere near the amount needed for the new building that they will not get anywhere near what would be needed to move her from those same supporters, unless they can find another entrepreneur like they did when they first started to get 558 flying, from memory from standing outside the hangar at Bruntingthorpe nobody had any idea if they would be able to continue until Dr Pleming climbed up the giraffe steps and announced they had the money to carry on thanks to an anonymous donor who later turned out to be to Sir Jack Hayward.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

ExVulcanGC wrote:
Thu 18 Aug 2022, 8:45 pm
I suppose one could extrapolate from the current fans/supporters not raising anywhere near the amount needed for the new building that they will not get anywhere near what would be needed to move her from those same supporters
Maybe if they hadn't spunked 600k+ on advertising, and other stuff in the time frame, they would have raised enough, but this is VTTS, who seem to only care about the survival of VTTS rather than the Vulcan. Even then, don't they still owe Peel a bloody fortune in unpaid fees, (probably why they are fed up with them, and are evicting them) and didn't Marshall's write off a huge chunk of what they were owed by VTTS as well...?
As much as a shame it will be if '558 does get scrapped, at least it will finally mean the end of VTTS which will be no bad thing.

106500
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

MiG_Eater wrote:
Thu 18 Aug 2022, 5:08 pm
Sorry 106500 but I think you're wrong about 558 being as special as that.

There are numerous Vulcans with more exciting histories, and whilst there is a personal connection to 558 - the reason that it was special was because it was the only one flying. As a non-flyer 558 was never going to be an attraction alone. If it were a feature of another museum (as with the originally planned Duxford) they would no doubt make plenty of money, but frankly I think the sooner TVOC stop sapping money away from other heritage projects, the better. Its incredibly sad, but that is my opinion.
Putting aside the extent to which 558 is historically important, there’s no doubting that it’s a Vulcan in first class condition having had £millions spent on it. On that point alone surely it’s worthy of long term preservation and safeguarding? The way I see it is that there’s a simple choice: 1. Get behind VTTS 2. Accept its destruction. Is there any other solution?

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speedbird2639
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by speedbird2639 »

it’s a Vulcan in first class condition having had £millions spent on it.
It's a Vulcan that is 60+ years old and has been stood outside in the wind and the rain for the last 7 years. So it's debatable how much of the benefit of the millions of £ spent remains.

My two penny worth is that there is zero chance they will get a permit for a ferry flight so options list is a) cut it up and move it by road or b) save the cockpit and scrap the rest (or potentially c - just cut it all up and sell the skin to the tags man).

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

You missed Option d)
Sell it to someone who'll dismantle it properly and move it by road.
I'd say that's something GJD could do, but suspect the sticking block with whatever happens will be VTST.
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cg_341
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by cg_341 »

That's just option A.

To take a Vulcan apart in a way that means it can be put back together and skill kept "live" is likely to be beyond even the skills of GJD, even if they had the time to do it!

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by capercaillie »

speedbird2639 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 11:12 am
it’s a Vulcan in first class condition having had £millions spent on it.
It's a Vulcan that is 60+ years old and has been stood outside in the wind and the rain for the last 7 years. So it's debatable how much of the benefit of the millions of £ spent remains.

My two penny worth is that there is zero chance they will get a permit for a ferry flight so options list is a) cut it up and move it by road or b) save the cockpit and scrap the rest (or potentially c - just cut it all up and sell the skin to the tags man).
I have to be honest, when I saw it at Finningley, sorry Robin Hood, Robin Hood and his merry men, actually stick to Finningley, a couple of weeks ago, taxi-ing and trumpeting, it looked and sounded pretty healthy albeit at half a mile away, even after 7 years outside. Still don't see it flying out of there however.
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106500
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by 106500 »

cg_341 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 11:35 am
That's just option A.

To take a Vulcan apart in a way that means it can be put back together and skill kept "live" is likely to be beyond even the skills of GJD, even if they had the time to do it!
There might be another option…. Consent is obtained to keep the airframe in its current location or nearby as a form of ‘gate guard’? I know this would need Peel to review its position, but given the subsidy it has received from all and sundry, I believe pressure could be brought to bear and this option could be the most realistic of all?

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

cg_341 wrote: That's just option A.
Nah.
To me, there's a difference between 'cut it up' and 'dismantle properly'
At a minimum, the latter involves undoing all the bolts properly ( even if the wiring has to be cut ) whereas the former involves grinding/burning off all the bolts without worrying about how to reassemble it afterwards.
Personal experience when I used to be a contractor at a Newport steelworks - the Russian owners had sold the furnaces & other machinery to Indian companies & we were supposed to properly dismantle them...instead, we simply used gas/plasma cutters to burn off every single nut & bolt.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Ken Shabby »

I’m sure they’ll be someone out there will the skills to dismantle it, move it by road and then reassemble it in such condition that it can still be taxied.

It will be a huge task, though, and not something quick to do. Aside from the more obvious dismantling of the airframe into transportable components, the Vulcan has literally hundreds of wiring looms that will have to be broken and then rejoined at the new site. VTTS will need contractor staff and equipment on hire possibly for months. It sounds like the disassembling will have to be done outdoors, which can only make things more time-consuming and complex and, presumably, the reassembly will need to be done indoors, perhaps requiring hangar hire.

It’s certainly not going to be cheap. I’d hazard a guess you wouldn’t get a lot of change of out £750K to £1 million using a contractor. I read many years ago that the move of XL318 to Hendon was costed at £300K, and that was with no requirement to have the aircraft operating in any way again. It was also 40 years ago!

Making use of volunteer labour would reduce the cost, but does VTTS have enough suitably experienced volunteers to dismantle the aircraft? Volunteer labour is also less reliable and could simply add the money saved back on through extended timescales. If there’s no intention to operate 558 as a taxying aircraft anymore, though, that could reduce costs as the disassembly and reassembly need not be as ‘careful’ as it would if you needed the aircraft working again, so perhaps that’s an option.

As I’ve said before, VTTS have said they raised £500K from the failed visitor centre appeal and that 9/10 donors have allowed them to keep their money. Given that the appeal closed at the beginning of this year, and VTTS were the soon aware that they would have to leave Robin Hood, I would hope and assume that this money has been set aside to go towards moving the aircraft to another site.

£450K is a decent starting point for a ‘moving fund’ even if VTTS has to raise the same amount again. Given that any appeal would literally be to save the aircraft, it could generate a sufficient response.
Ken

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by ericbee123 »

Is June 2023 the drop down dead date ?

If it is then 10 months doesn’t give them many options.

If they want to dismantle and rebuild in taxying condition, I am guessing that isn’t something you can do in a couple of weeks.

To be honest if they haven’t got a concrete plan soon then 9 months, then 8 months, etc isn’t going to leave a lot of time to organise anything.

If 10 months time is a “drop dead” date then unless something is decided very, very soon then the only decision left to make - will be - which scrapman to sell it to ?
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by helired3 »

ericbee123 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 2:39 pm


If they want to dismantle and rebuild in taxying condition, I am guessing that isn’t something you can do in a couple of weeks.
I don't think a rebuild to taxying condition is an option thats why the mentioned the ferry flight
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GeeRam
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

cg_341 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 11:35 am
That's just option A.

To take a Vulcan apart in a way that means it can be put back together and skill kept "live" is likely to be beyond even the skills of GJD, even if they had the time to do it!
Exactly.

Its only been done once before using the full resources of the RAF, and even then, it wasn't done to be able to be a live aircraft again.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 12:03 pm
cg_341 wrote: That's just option A.
Nah.
To me, there's a difference between 'cut it up' and 'dismantle properly'
At a minimum, the latter involves undoing all the bolts properly ( even if the wiring has to be cut ) whereas the former involves grinding/burning off all the bolts without worrying about how to reassemble it afterwards.
You're ignoring what has been already posted in this thread.
Doing it 'properly' as you describe has only ever been done ONCE before, using all the full resources of the RAF at the time.......and they still sawed through the cables/hyd pipes etc.
The aircraft was never designed to be dismantled in such a way.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Brevet Cable »

You may want to go back and re-read my post
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

ericbee123 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 2:39 pm
Is June 2023 the drop down dead date ?

If it is then 10 months doesn’t give them many options.

If they want to dismantle and rebuild in taxying condition, I am guessing that isn’t something you can do in a couple of weeks.

The RAF AS&T Flight team from RAF Abingdon took about 4-5 weeks to dismantle XL318 in Jan/Feb 1982, at Scampton ready for transporting to RAFM Hendon.
But that's a full trained specialist RAF Team working full time with full resources of the RAF and all the neccessary ground equipment done in one of Scamptons hangars with overhead crane access etc.,etc.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by bernarde »

FYI DSA are now charging the trust £600 ground rent per week in a bid to move them out quicker.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by AndyXH558 »

All Vulcans like lancaters were made modular , Vulcans were made at Chadderton then ferried by road to Woodford for assembly.
.
The team that did 318 used manuals from avro to disassemble the aircraft properly

It's a mammoth task but could be done. .

But strongly doubt it would be done right
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by Seahornet »

GeeRam wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 5:09 pm
ericbee123 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 2:39 pm
Is June 2023 the drop down dead date ?

If it is then 10 months doesn’t give them many options.

If they want to dismantle and rebuild in taxying condition, I am guessing that isn’t something you can do in a couple of weeks.

The RAF AS&T Flight team from RAF Abingdon took about 4-5 weeks to dismantle XL318 in Jan/Feb 1982, at Scampton ready for transporting to RAFM Hendon.
But that's a full trained specialist RAF Team working full time with full resources of the RAF and all the neccessary ground equipment done in one of Scamptons hangars with overhead crane access etc.,etc.
...And that was done by cutting the wiring looms, so it could never have been reassembled into a runable/taxiable condition. What is being suggested here has never been done before, not by anybody, and even VttS are not suggesting it as a possibility.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by purple_95 »

FYI DSA are now charging the trust £600 ground rent per week in a bid to move them out quicker.
Can not see that making much difference to anything really, as far as is publicly known the trust and all it owns has nowhere to go and seemingly no money to afford a move anyway.

Sadly I fear we might well be seeing 558 at a few events next summer but as a cockpit section on the back of a truck and Lord only knows what will happen to the Canberra that as far as it looks has simply been dumped outside for the last few years.

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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight

Post by GeeRam »

Seahornet wrote:
Sat 20 Aug 2022, 10:49 am
GeeRam wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 5:09 pm
ericbee123 wrote:
Fri 19 Aug 2022, 2:39 pm
Is June 2023 the drop down dead date ?

If it is then 10 months doesn’t give them many options.

If they want to dismantle and rebuild in taxying condition, I am guessing that isn’t something you can do in a couple of weeks.

The RAF AS&T Flight team from RAF Abingdon took about 4-5 weeks to dismantle XL318 in Jan/Feb 1982, at Scampton ready for transporting to RAFM Hendon.
But that's a full trained specialist RAF Team working full time with full resources of the RAF and all the neccessary ground equipment done in one of Scamptons hangars with overhead crane access etc.,etc.
...And that was done by cutting the wiring looms, so it could never have been reassembled into a runable/taxiable condition. What is being suggested here has never been done before, not by anybody, and even VttS are not suggesting it as a possibility.
Yes, I don't know if you still can, but years ago, you used to be able to walk under the open bomb bay of XL318 at RAFM, and looking up into the bay, you could clearly see the severed massive bundles of cable runs where they had cut through them at the spilts.

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